Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 156

Mon, 02 Sep 2013

• 1. Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Rambam on False Messiahs (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Rambam on False Messiahs (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. The Right Way to Give Tochachah (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. defense against rape or assault (M Cohen)
• 7. Re: defense against rape or assault (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Rambam on False Messiahs (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: Rambam on False Messiahs (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Saul Guberman)
• 11. Re: The Right Way to Give Tochachah (Marty Bluke)
• 12. How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Marty Bluke)
• 13. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Zev Sero)
• 14. LABOR DAY?? (cantorwolb...@cox.net)

At 12:00 PM 9/1/2013, R. Micha wrote:

>On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 09:47:25AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > http://www.moreshesashkenaz.org/en/luach
>
>Ezras Torah
>http://ezrastorah.org/calendar5774.php?page=download

If you compare the two,  you will find many differences.  Rabbi 
Hamburger's Luach is based on the old ("authentic")  minhag 
Ashkenaz.  In one volume of his 4 volume set, Shorshei Minhag 
Ashkenaz, he quotes Rav Shimon Schwab,  ZT"L, as saying that compared 
to Rav Hamburger's shul in Bnei Brak which strictly follows these 
minhagim,   Khal Adath Yeshurin is a Chassidishe Shteibel. :-)

Just one example.  For the first set of Tekios the one who calls the 
Tekios sits while he calls them!   I doubt you will find this even 
mentioned in the Ezras Torah calendar.

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130901/699010ab/attachment-0001.htm>

On 1/09/2013 12:38 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> See, I don't read it that way.  Mashiach isn't "sent".  That's an idea
> that's rooted in Christianity.

In no particular order
"Yishlach lekeitz hayamin meshicheinu...."
"Harachaman hu yishlach lanu meshicho holech tamim..."
"Shelach na beyad tishlach"  (which refers to Moshiach)
About the first geulah, and subsequent ones: "Vayishlach Hashem es Moshe
ve'es Aharon...vayishlach Hashem es Yerba`al ve'es Bedan ve'es Yiftach
ve'es Shmuel."


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Sun, Sep 01, 2013 at 12:59:47PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> If you compare the two,  you will find many differences.  Rabbi  
> Hamburger's Luach is based on the old ("authentic")  minhag Ashkenaz...

Yes, but, who says that today's East European descended Anglo Jew is
more bound by the "old 'authentic' minhag Ashkenaz" than halakhah as
decided in America by an East Eurpean like R' Henkin?

And thus, both calendars have their value, and neither approach to
halakhah more authentic than the other.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 

From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>

>>Mashiach  isn't "sent".  That's an idea 
that's rooted in Christianity.   Mashiach isn't some otherworldly 
creature.  He's flesh and blood like  me and you.  He isn't mashiach 
prior to accomplishing the things the  Rambam lists.  That's just the 
label that's put on the leader who does  those things.<<


Lisa





>>>>>
 
I'm not so sure it's a Christian idea.  I think rather that the  Christians 
took it from us -- the idea that Hashem will send the Moshiach.   Yes, you 
are correct that he will be flesh and blood, not some kind of  demi-god.
 
The interplay of hashgacha and bechira is a subject for long discussion  
(probably thousands of pages in the Avodah archives already).
 
On the one hand in each generation Hashem sends us the leaders we need  -- 
a Baal Shem Tov, a Vilna Gaon, a Rav Moshe Feinstein, a Chofetz Chaim, a  
Chazon Ish. On the other hand the people with the kochos do not /have/ to 
accept  their mission, the becoming-a-godol requires massive amounts of mesirus 
nefesh  and personal effort on the part of a person who hasn't been 
explicitly told by a  bas kol "You are to be a godol."
 
Usually it is not obvious early in a great person's life that he was sent  
here on a mission, it becomes obvious only later in his life or after his  
death.
 
That Moshiach will have to accomplish certain specific things through  his 
own efforts does not contradict the idea that he will be sent by  Hashem.  
Did Hashem send Dovid Hamelech?  Going back further,   did He send Moshe 
Rabbeinu?  I think the answers are yes.  In the case  of Moshe Rabbeinu it is 
explicit at the burning bush.  Moshe by his own  bechirah became a worthy 
leader and then Hashem sent him to Pharoah.   That's not a Christian idea, they 
got it from us.
 

--Toby  Katz
KVCT
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130901/59b19022/attachment-0001.htm>

The problem with the explanation of Mordechai Schiller
is that we are not living in Biblical times where G-d openly
approves of what we consider to be l'shem shamayim. This
kind of thinking can bring all the nuts out of the woodwork and
you can end up with people like Yigal Amir, Boruch Goldstein, M.D.,
(who had the highest honors from Y.U. in 1977) or the likes of Meir Kahane.

The right way to give tochacha is to show the whites of your teeth
in a smile and to hand out kugel and holler 'Good Shabbos" 
(as R' Micha so poignantly wrote).  Especially at this time of the year,
it behooves us to examine our own tzitzis and not those of others.

It takes a minute to lift up the Torah but it takes a lifetime for the Torah to lift us up.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130901/7d221b1f/attachment-0001.htm>

The question asked to me was practical

However, my post to Avodah was intended to cover the halacha from  both
theoretical and practical viewpoints.

 

RZS writes ..that one may take "life" to mean "life or limb",

Or that that rape of a single woman who is tehorah and not related to her
attacker can also be regarded as included in arayos, 

and in the right the Torah gives to kill the would-be rapist of an ervah.

 

I see no evidence whatsoever of this.

 

RDE brought several sources that do not answer my question.

He shows that the nirdaf (and family) could kill the attacker in the classic
torah case of rodef

He shows that the nirdaf (and family) could hit an attacker in rtn in cases
of assault

 

I wanted to know if a nirdaf is allowed to kill their attacker (NOT in the
classic torah case of rodef - murder or arayos) 

(ie they 'know' that the attack is not a case of attempted murder or arayos,
but 'just' to rape a penuaya or beat them)

 

Thanks for your comments

KVCT, Mc

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130901/f2839512/attachment-0001.htm>

On 1/09/2013 1:29 PM, M Cohen wrote:
> I wanted to know if a nirdaf is allowed to kill their attacker (NOT in the classic torah case of rodef - murder or arayos)
>
> (ie they ?know? that the attack is not a case of attempted murder or arayos, but ?just? to rape a penuaya or beat them)
>

Yes, of course.  That's what I wrote.  And I suggested two possible grounds
on which to permit it.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 9/1/2013 2:02 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 1/09/2013 12:38 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> See, I don't read it that way.  Mashiach isn't "sent".  That's an idea
>> that's rooted in Christianity.
>
> In no particular order
> "Yishlach lekeitz hayamin meshicheinu...."

It's a pretty song.

> "Harachaman hu yishlach lanu meshicho holech tamim..."

Is that in the Chabad bensching, or something?

> "Shelach na beyad tishlach"  (which refers to Moshiach)

Says who?

> About the first geulah, and subsequent ones: "Vayishlach Hashem es Moshe
> ve'es Aharon...vayishlach Hashem es Yerba`al ve'es Bedan ve'es Yiftach
> ve'es Shmuel."

None of these are particularly convincing.

Lisa

On Sun, Sep 01, 2013 at 07:54:38PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> "Yishlach lekeitz hayamin meshicheinu...."

> It's a pretty song.

Which every Jewish qehillah from Frankfurt to the Darad'im have no
problem with including in our siddur..

>> "Harachaman hu yishlach lanu meshicho holech tamim..."

> Is that in the Chabad bensching, or something?

It's in everyone's (AFAIK) bentching for a se'udas beris milah.

>> "Shelach na beyad tishlach"  (which refers to Moshiach)

> Says who?

Pirqei derR Eliezer ch. 40 and Medrash Leqach Tov on our pasuq.

>> About the first geulah, and subsequent ones: "Vayishlach Hashem es Moshe
>> ve'es Aharon...vayishlach Hashem es Yerba`al ve'es Bedan ve'es Yiftach
>> ve'es Shmuel."

> None of these are particularly convincing.

They show that sending a go'el has nothing to do with implying his
divinity.

BTW, if sending a go'el is problematic in your eyes, how much more so
would be bringing him -- as that doesn't even imply the separation between
G-d and the redeemer that sending does? IOW, why would you be okay with
"umeivi go'el livnei veneihem" if you won't even countenance shelichus?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

Ezras Torah claims neither to be old or authentic.  They claim to follow
the piskei halacha of Rav Henkin.  He was "the posek" of the USA for some
time. To follow something else may be minhag avot, if all/majority of the
congregants are from the same region.  The Ezras Torah luach is as close as
it gets to minhag hamakom of Ashkenazim for the USA.  As the overwhelming
majority of shuls in the USA do not have congregants from the same region,
Ezras Torah would seem to be the guide to follow.


KvCT

Saul

On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

If you compare the two,  you will find many differences.  Rabbi Hamburger's
Luach is based on the old ("authentic")  minhag Ashkenaz.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130901/84ae93a5/attachment-0001.htm>

R' Yaakov Kamenetsky made a similar point. After Shimon and Levi
destroy the city of Shechem Yaakov is very angry with them and asks
for exposing their family to danger, they answer,"hachzona yaaseh es
achoseinu". Yaakov Avinu does not respond at that point but does
respond when he gives the shevatim their berachos in Vayechi. Yaakov
says about Shimon and Levi, klei chamas m'cherosehem, clearly negative
and then he says afitzeim b'yaakov achalkem b'yisrael, that they will
be spread around. However, Rashi comments that Yaakov was saying that
they will be the teachers and sofrim for the Jewish people.

R' Yaakov Kamenetsky asks why should they be the klei kodesh? Yaakov
Avinu was not happy with their actions. He answers that to be a klei
kodesh you need to be a kannoi. Things have to bother you and you have
to act on it.

R' Yaakov then pointed out that Levi fulfilled the beracha while
Shimon did not. Levi rallied to Moshe Rabenu's side when he said ??
??' ??? by the ???, however, Shimon did not. In fact, Shimon used his
kannaus for bad in the maaseh of Zimri where the Nasi of Shimon was a
kannoi against Moshe Rabenu and acted out his desires. And in fact,
who killed Zimri, Pinchas from Shevet levi.

What was the difference between Shimon and Levi? R' Yaakov answers,
Torah. Levi learned torah in Egypt and was therefore able to harness
his kannaus to torah while Shimon was busy working and therefore his
kannaus was not bound by torah and turned out to be a terrible thing.

The Chazon Ish once commented on the Kannoim in Yerushalayim that they
were pre-matan torah Jews, meaning that their actions were not guided
by torah but by emotion. This is a very bad thing which leads people
to do terrible aveiros.

Unfortunately, this is the case of today's kannoim as well. They are
pre-matan torah Jews like Shimon. Their kannaus is causing them to
violate very serious aveiros for which they cannot do teshuva. They
have been mazik and stole from who knows how many people, an aveira
from which there is no kappara until you return the stolen/damaged
property. There is absolutely no heter whatsoever to destroy public
property to make a protest, it is simply stealing from the public. In
addition, they have created a terrible chillul hashem, again an aveira
with no kappara. Why? because their kanaus is not defined by Torah but
by their emotions.

This is exactly the problem today, everyone is a kannoi but how many
kannoim have their kanaus defined by the Torah?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130902/8bd7685f/attachment-0001.htm>

Recently I learned Pesachim 64b (daf yomi) where the Gemara states that
King Agrippas wanted to take a census so he had the Cohanim count the
number of Korban Pesachs that were brought and it came out to 1.2 million
korbanos, 12 million people (10 to a korban).

1.2 million korban pesachs seem to be a very problematic number. There are
a number of major issues:

1. The Korban Pesach is only brought in the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan
after the korban tamid is brought. The Mishna (58a) states that on Erev
Pesach the Tamid was brought from 7.5 - 8.5. That leaves just 3.5 hours
(8.5 -12) to bring the korban pesachs. That means that they had to
sacrifice over 340,000 korbanos an hour, over 5700 a minute and over 95 a
second. That is simply impossible. Let's think about what needed to be
done.
A. shechita
B. collect the blood
C. sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach
D. Skin the animal and take out the organs to be burned on the mizbeach.
All of this at the pace of 95 a second???

Just for comparison a modern slaughterhouse kills about 1000 animals an
hour, so in the time allotted could get to 3500 animals.

2. How could they possibly fit all of the people and animals in the Azara?
The Gemara states that the Korban Pesach is brought in 3 shifts. 1.2
million korbanos means 1.2 animals and at least 1.2 million people, even in
3 even shifts that is 400,000 people and animals a shift!!! The Beis
Hamikdash was simply not that big the whole thing was 100 ama x 100 ama.
Even assuming a large ama of 2 feet that is 200 sq feet. In addition the
Kodesh Hakadoshim was 20 ama long which takes away space. In any case, not
only does it not fit 400,000 people and animals, it doesn't even fit 4000
people and animals. In addition, moving 400,000 people into and out of a
confined space takes hours, the whole 3.5 hours would have been taken up by
simply trying to get the people in and out without having time to do
anything.

This leads to the question that given the dimensions of the Mishkan and the
Beis Hamikdash and the number of people, how did everyone ever bring a
korban pesach? The numbers just don't work. Another question we can ask is
what if Moshiach came now, there are over 12 million halachic Jews, how
could we all possibly bring a korban Pesach in 3.5 hour window on Erev
Pesach?

Nowhere in the Gemara (or in any of the Rishonim/Acharonim that I saw) is
there even a hint that these numbers are not real.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130902/5836661e/attachment-0001.htm>

On 2/09/2013 4:40 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:

> 3.5 hours (8.5 -12) to bring the korban pesachs. That means that they
> had to sacrifice over 340,000 korbanos an hour, over 5700 a minute
> and over 95 a second. That is simply impossible. Let's think about
> what needed to be done. A. shechita B. collect the blood C. sprinkle
> the blood on the mizbeach D. Skin the animal and take out the organs
> to be burned on the mizbeach. All of this at the pace of 95 a
> second???>

Why not? The owner of an animal catches the attention of a kohen with a
basin, who comes over, the owner (who has brought his own chalaf) positions
the animal and shechts, the kohen catches the blood, and rushes it over to
one of the lines of kohanim all over the azara who are passing the basins
back and forward.  Let's suppose the whole process, from positioning the
animal to catching the blood, takes 20 seconds.  To process 100 a second they
would need 2000 animals being sacrificed simultaneously.

> Just for comparison a modern slaughterhouse kills about 1000 animals an hour,
> so in the time allotted could get to 3500 animals.

Beef or lamb?  A lamb is a lot easier to manipulate.  And of course a modern
slaughterhouse is not working on a deadline, and its output is controlled by
the demand; there isn't the demand for that much meat on any one day.


>  The Beis Hamikdash was simply not that big the whole thing was 100 ama x
> 100 ama.

The azara was 187 x 135.  Take away 100x100 for the Hechal, and 32x32 for the
mizbeach, leaves over 14,000 sq amos, which at 50 cm is over 3,500 sq metres.
If 2000 people are actively sacrificing at any one time, and each of those
occupies 1 sq metre, that leaves 1500 sq metres for all the people who are
waiting their turn, and for the kohanim's lines, etc.  It's tight, but probably
doable even without miracles.   And of course there were miracles, e.g. on Yom
Kippur, so why not on Erev Pesach as well?


  Even assuming a large ama of 2 feet that is 200 sq feet. In addition the
  Kodesh Hakadoshim was 20 ama long which takes away space. In any case,
  not only does it not fit 400,000 people and animals, it doesn't even fit
  4000 people and animals. In addition, moving 400,000 people into and out
  of a confined space takes hours, the whole 3.5 hours would have been
  taken up by simply trying to get the people in and out without having
  time to do anything.
>
> This leads to the question that given the dimensions of the Mishkan
> and the Beis Hamikdash and the number of people, how did everyone ever
> bring a korban pesach? The numbers just don't work. Another question
> we can ask is what if Moshiach came now, there are over 12 million
> halachic Jews, how could we all possibly bring a korban Pesach in 3.5
> hour window on Erev Pesach?
>
> Nowhere in the Gemara (or in any of the Rishonim/Acharonim that I saw) is there even a hint that these numbers are not real.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

   Sh?mos 20:9-10   Six days shall you ?LABOR? and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God?
 
   Sh?mos 34:21   Six days shall you ?LABOR? and on the seventh day you shall desist?
 
   D?vorim 5:13-14    Six days shall you ?LABOR? and do all your work but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God?

   For Jews, Labor Day is from Sunday through Friday, six days a week.
 Calling today Labor Day would be like calling Shabbos Labor Day, or
 like calling Yom Kippur: REVELRY DAY. It seems these contradictions
 are semantically innate. Take for instance the following examples: the word indiviDUAL. 
 The last four letters is contrary to the meaning of the whole word. Take the word "blunt."
 We generally think of that as meaning "straight to the point, sharp, direct." But when applied to 
 an object it means just the opposite: dull, NOT sharp.  FIX can mean repair or it can mean: to castrate.

   Wishing all a very happy Labor FREE day!


      A minister who commits a sin becomes SINister.  



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 156
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)