Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 151

Wed, 21 Aug 2013

• 1. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Simon Montagu)
• 5. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Zev Sero)
• 6. Twelve Months Mourning (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Hagba (martin brody)
• 8. Re: Hagba (Eitan Levy)
• 9. Even veAven (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: Even veAven (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Twelve Months Mourning (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Even veAven (Simon Montagu)
• 13. Tekiah Before or After (Akiva Blum)
• 14. TIDE-esque Izhbitzer Thoughts (Micha Berger)
• 15. Why does it matter who blows the shofar? (Zev Sero)

On 20/08/2013 1:26 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:19:46PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:

>> There is nothing dubious about a holy custom adopted by almost all of klal
>> yisrael.  There is something very dubious about calling such a minhag dubious.

> The Chozeh of Lublin, R' Naftoli Ropshitzer, and the Sanzer Rav (R'
> Chaim Halberstam, the Divrei Chaim) all called the minhag dubious because
> the Chemdas Yamim was. And therefore lemaaseh there are Chassidim who do
> not say LeDavid. So, the accusation does have legs. Even if you disagree
> with it, I wouldn't call a decision of the Chozeh "very dubious".

They may have chosen not to adopt the minhag, for various reasons, but they
did not call it dubious.  And while some may have thought it comes from
the Chemdas Yomim, we know that it doesn't.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 03:24:05PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> They may have chosen not to adopt the minhag, for various reasons, but they
> did not call it dubious.  And while some may have thought it comes from
> the Chemdas Yomim, we know that it doesn't.

The Chozeh et al didn't take on the minhag because they thought the source
was Sabbatean. Do they really need to use the word "dubious" for you to
conclude it would describe their opinion?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 8/20/2013 9:18 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From  http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/736949

>> Dr. Leiman examines the dubious custom of reciting Psalm 27 in Elul and
>> Tishrei. He sheds light on the varying customs regarding its inclusion
>> in tefila and traces its murky liturgical origins.
>> Given at Kehilas Degel Israel, Kew Gardens Hills

Reciting L'Dhawidh HaShem Ori W'Yish'i
Question:
    I am told that the earliest mention of the custom of saying LeDavid
    Hashem Ori Veyishi from Rosh Hodesh Ellul until Hoshana Rabba is in
    Sefer Chemdat Yamim, first printed in Izmir in 1731-2. The anonymous
    author of Chemdat Yamim was accused of Sabbatean tendencies by,
    among others, R. Yaakov Emden, and the balance of scholarly opinion
    today is that his claims were rooted in fact. I have heard that the
    Sabbateans interpreted some psukim from this mizmor as alluding to
    their heretical doctrines but I cannot think what these may be. Is
    this sufficient reason to put an end to the minhagh of reciting
    this mizmor?

(continued at http://j.mp/19vDino
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/l
ist-ask-the-rav/46-tphilla-and-brakhoth/409-reciting-ldhawidh-hashem-ori-wy
ishi)

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>
> From  http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/736949
>
> Dr. Leiman examines the dubious custom of reciting Psalm 27 in Elul and
> Tishrei.


Hanahh lahem leYisrael! I take exception to the word "dubious" in the blurb.

I realize this is not your word, and I doubt if it is Dr Leiman's. In
fact, I suspect the blurb was written by somebody who was familiar
with some of the controversies about the minhag and had not listened
to the lecture all the way through -- which I would recommend everyone
to do, or read the summary at
http://jewishthoughtandbeyond.blogspot.co.il/2010
/08/custom-of-reciting-psalm-27-during.html.

RMB asked me an interesting question in a moderation comment:

"I already noted that the Chozeh of Lublin rejected the custom because
of its connection to Chemdas Yamim. If you knew he thought it was
dubious, would you still object?"

I would stand by "Hanahh lahem leYisrael". Gedolim vetovim have
practised this minhag without knowing that it was connected to [C]HY,
and it has enriched their Avoda during Elul and YN. I don't know that
the Hoze of Lublin would necessarily disagree with that. Even if he,
knowing of the connection, rejected the custom, that doesn't make it
dubious for those who followed it as minhag Yisrael Saba without such
knowledge.

(Not to mention RSL's own response in the lecture, that in fact the
practice is mentioned in earlier works than the HY and connected in
oral tradition to the Ba'al Shem of Chelm in the 16th century)

On 20/08/2013 6:42 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 03:24:05PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> They may have chosen not to adopt the minhag, for various reasons, but they
>> did not call it dubious.  And while some may have thought it comes from
>> the Chemdas Yomim, we know that it doesn't.
>
> The Chozeh et al didn't take on the minhag because they thought the source
> was Sabbatean.

We don't actually know that.  In any case, we know that the minhag is not
dubious, so it's very dubious to describe it that way.



-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

The Shach (Y"D 344:9) states that if a parent commands a child not to
observe the 12 months of mourning, it is a mitzvah to follow their command.
 Does anyone know whether this is the generally accepted halacha?  Has
anyone seen anything on whether  "ruach chachamim" would be noche  towards
a parent who did so command?
KVCT
Joel Rich
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"I was recently in a shul where they took out the sefer Torah, opened
it and carried it all around the shul, showing everyone with a yad
where the beginning of the keri'ah is. I had never seen this before,
and was wondering if this is a common practice. Is it mentioned in
halachic sources, or does it simply manifest someone's enthusiasm?""

I thought that was the purpose of Hagba, to show that we have an
authoritative text and where we are in the cycle.
The sephardi method makes sense, the Ashkenazi, to do it at the end,
doesn't.


-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
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?I was recently in a shul where they took out the sefer Torah, opened
it and carried it all around the shul, showing everyone with a yad
where the beginning of the keri'ah is. I had never seen this before,
and was wondering if this is a common practice. Is it mentioned in
halachic sources, or does it simply manifest someone's enthusiasm?" 

I have seen this in many Sephardi shuls. Definitely not unusual. I can?t
imagine any reason not to. I would think letting people see the place
better (actually at a distance where they can make out the letters) would
only be good.
--
B?ahavat Yisrael,
-Eitan Levy
 
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<<That's an excellent example.  I do this myself.  And if you know someone
who is always late and you tell them to be there by 5:45 when you really
want them to be there by 6, knowing that they'll probably *still* not
make it by 6, would that be an issue as well?>>

There is a story in the gemara that Rav's wife would always serve the
opposite of what Rav reqyested. When Rav's son noticed this he would would
relay to his mother the opposite of what Rav wanted so that Rav would get
what he wanted.
Eventually Rav realized that things had changed and he was getting what he
ordered. He asked his son for the reason and the son told of his trick. Rav
responded that it was a clever idea but that one is not allowed to lie.

I note that the gemara does not indicate that Rav himself instituted the
trick.
According to this story what could not lie and say a meeting was earlier
than scheduled so the person would show up on time.

There was a note in R. Haber's drasha that some of these things might
depend on societal norms. I was not sure what that meant. However, since
setting ones watch ahead to try and be on time seems to be quite common and
so I assume it is okay.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I would think the question of whether even va'aven applies to time would
depend on whether we classify time measurers (clocks / watches) as of the
same kind as weight measurers (scales) and volume measurers (measuring
cups, etc...)

In terms of not wanting to even own something someone else could use to
cheat in business, a dishonest watch could be used for clocking in late
or clocking out early.

But the halakhaos of paying for time, ie sekhirus, are different enough
than those of paying for an item sold by weight or volume that I don't
knowi if the comparison is viable.

And the pasuq itself only includes volume (eifah) and weight (even).

So what about length? A dishonest ruler would allow someone to cheat
when doing business in cloth, thread, rope...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:56:25PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: The Shach (Y"D 344:9) states that if a parent commands a child not
: to observe the 12 months of mourning, it is a mitzvah to follow their
: command. Does anyone know whether this is the generally accepted halacha?
: Has anyone seen anything on whether "ruach chachamim" would be noche
: towards a parent who did so command?

If we say, as RYBS does, that aveilus from after sheloshim to the end of the
year is more about kibud av va'eim than actual aveilus, "av shemachal al
kevodo, kevodo machul" (Qiddushin 32a).

ROY says it's a machloqes acharonim WRT av shemachal al mora'o. See
http://www.halachayomit.co.il/DisplayRead.asp?readID=2049
He finds the Chida's argument that it is machul convincing. (And you
can call your father by name if he requests it.) There ROY also says
that av shemachal al bizyono, EIN bizyono machul.

Whomever compiles Halakhah Yomit doesn't give ROY's sources.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to this story what could not lie and say a meeting was earlier
> than scheduled so the person would show up on time.

I thought of that story when I read LL's original message, but I don't
think the two cases are parallel: in the story Rav's wife wilfully
always made him the opposite of what he wanted, so their son was lying
to her so that his lie and her davkaness cancelled each other out.

People who are always late for appointments (in general) don't do it
in order to thwart the other person, but because they are just bad at
planning their time. By telling them an earlier time one is giving
them a safety margin, not deceiving them. One might even go further
and say that telling them the exact time is like a michshol lifnei
iver.

I recall hearing that some are makpid that the tzibbur knows when hearing a
tekiah if that is the tekiah before the teruah or after the teruah.

Does anyone have any source for this?

 

Akiva

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Posted today to BeyondBT
http://www.beyondbt.com/2013/08/21/is-torah-everythingor-is-ever
ything-torah-3

Conclusion / Teaser:
    When the Kohen who practices the lifestyle of "Torah is everything"
    is forced to hear that, in fact, "Everything is Torah" that's tough,
    really tough for him to hear.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


Beyond BT
Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews

Is Torah Everything... or is Everything Torah???
Posted on August 21, 2013
By Rabbi Dovid Schwartz

An installment in the series
From the Waters of the Shiloah: Plumbing the Depths of the Izhbitzer School

For series introduction
http://www.beyondbt.com/2013/06/
26/from-the-waters-of-the-shiloah-plumbing-the-depths-of-the-izhbitzer-scho
ol/

    You shall take of the first of every fruit of the ground, produced by
    the land that HaShem your L-rd is giving you. You must place it in
    a basket and go to site place that HaShem will choose as the place
    associated with His name. There you shall go to the Kohen-priest
    officiating at the time, and say to him: `Today I am telling HaShem
    your L-rd that I have come to the land which HaShem swore to our
    fathers to give us.'
                        - Devarim 26:2-3

When referencing a Thesaurus it is imperative for the writer or speaker
to discern the precise shade of meaning that he wishes to convey and to
have a nuanced understanding of the differences between near synonymous
words. Loping, jogging, sprinting, fleeing, chasing, scurrying, dashing,
trotting and galloping are all forms of running. Yet each verb retains
a distinct and specific meaning and using the appropriate word paints
a more accurate word picture.

In Lashon Kodesh there are many verbs for speech; amirah, dibur, sipur,
hagadah and kriah to name a few. Each of these has a specific meaning
and these words cannot be used interchangeably. Commenting on one of the
preamble pesukim-verses to the Aseres HaDibros-the Decalogue; "This is
what you must say (somahr) to the house of Jacob, and tell (v'sahgayd)
the children of Israel" (Shemos 19:3) Rashi famously delineates the
different meanings of the terms; amirah and hagadah: "to the house of
Jacob: These are the women. Say it to them in a gentle language. -- 
[from Mechilta] and tell the children of Israel: The punishments and
the details [of the laws] tell the males, things that are as harsh /
tough as tendons." -- [Mechilta, Tractate Shabbos 87A] (Rashi Ibid). So,
in Lashon Kodesh, when the style and/or the content of the spoken message
are harsh the correct verb to use is a conjugation of Hagadah.

With this in mind it seems odd that the Mikrah Bikurim declaration
accompanying the bringing of the first fruits is described as a "telling";
"Today I am telling HaShem your L-rd that I have come to the land which
HaShem swore etc." Superficially there does not seem to be anything
particularly tough or acerbic about either the style or substance of
this declaration. The Mikrah Bikurim declaration is, by turns, grateful,
joyous, melancholy (when speaking of the crucible of the Egyptian exile),
reverent and exultant. But nowhere in Mikrah Bikurim do we find anything
overtly harsh.

The Izhbitzer maintains that this "telling" is indeed harsh and he
reveals the hidden subtextual tough talk of Mikrah Bikurim.

By Torah design the Kohanim and Levi'im were not part of the homesteading
act in ancient agrarian Israel. The Torah constructed a society in
which eleven of the tribes would till the soil, ranch or sail the seas to
earn a living while one tribe, the tribe of Levi (including the Kohanim)
would be totally dedicated 7/24/365 to Torah study, Mitzvah performance
and Avodas HaShem. With no significant land of their own to farm this
tribe could not possibly be self-sufficient. So a system of societal
largess through Matnos Kehuna and leviya is mandated by the Torah to
sustain the Levi'im and Kohanim. This system unburdened them of the
earthy, materialistic concerns of cultivating the soil and enabled them
to dedicate themselves completely to the rarefied activities of advanced
Torah study, additional Mitzvahs and sacrificial service in the Mishkan
and Bais HaMikdash sanctuaries. This kind of tribal apartheid led to
them feeling a sense of spiritual superiority over the balance of the
Jewish People. For the Kohanim and Levi'im Torah was everything.

But when the lowly Jewish farmer from one of the other tribes brought
his first fruits to the Bais HaMikdash, gifted them to the Kohen and
declared Mikrah Bikurim he was telling a tale that the Kohen did not want
to hear. Back bent from too many rough rows to hoe, fingernails cracked
from plow and sickle repair, hands callused from demanding physical labor,
perhaps even vaguely redolent of the dung he spread to fertilize his
fields, the farmers persona and lifestyle implicitly passes judgment
on the kohens. He is "telling" the Kohen (off) "Even though you toil in
the Bais HaMikdash while I toil in the fields with every furrow that I
plow, with every weed that I pull and with every branch that I prune I
perform the Mitzvahs bound to the Land, and actualize the Torah that you
study. In hindsight, now that I've brought my Bikurim, it has become so
clarified that everything that I did to bring forth these fruits from
the Holy Land and every earthy, muddy even dung-covered place that I
interacted with were suffused with the holiness of the Bais HaMikdash.
For me everything is Torah!"

When the Kohen who practices the lifestyle of "Torah is everything"
is forced to hear that, in fact, "Everything is Torah" that's tough,
really tough for him to hear.

Adapted from Mei HaShiloach 6:17 (D"H higad'tee)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19936&;st=&pgnum=127

The mitzvah is to hear, rather than to blow.  Lishmoa` kol shofar, not
liskoa` bashofar.  This is why one is yotzei with a stolen shofar; blowing
it is an avera but listening to the sound is not, and the mitzvah is the
listening.  Since this is so, why is it that one can't be yotzei if the
blower is not obligated in the mitzvah?  Why can the tokea` not be a woman,
a katan, or even a nochri, or even a mechanical system that pumps air through
a kosher shofar?


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan


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