Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 150

Tue, 20 Aug 2013

• 1. Re: Ben Noach legal systems (was: Abortion is not Murder?) (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: lost articles (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Must we agree with the Torah?, Retzoncha and Retzono (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: off the derech (Kenneth Miller)
• 6. Re: lost articles (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: pre- leap year ki tisa (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: pre- leap year ki tisa (Micha Berger)
• 9. BP chicken and egg issue (Herbert Basser)
• 10. Rav Hirsch on Shiluach hakan (martin brody)
• 11. Holding the Torah Upright (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Even vaAven -- pratical applications (Kenneth Miller)
• 13. Re: Even vaAven -- pratical applications (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Even vaAven -- pratical applications (Lisa Liel)
• 15. Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Ben Waxman)
• 17. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Reciting L'Dovid Hashem Ori, A Secret History Dr. Shnayer Leiman (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 04:11:46AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
>> I would split this question further: there are the actual issurim of the
>> other six mitzvos, and there is the penalty the courts are expected to mete
>> out when implementing the 7th. Even if one holds that the legal system a
>> Noachide society has to establish must include every din of the Beris Noach,
>> that doesn't mean that they all have to be established as dinei nefashos.

: This split though is not tenable, as this is specifically discussed
: in Sanhedrin 57a, and suggested as a hava mina, but the maskana appears
: to be with Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak- Azharah shelhen hu mitaten.

I am failing to find any mention on Sanhedrin 57a about how nakhriim
are supposed to be judging eachother in the courts they set up. Rather,
it could well be about how our courts should be judging them. But in any
case, it's more about the principle of chiyuv misah and which aveiros
generate it than the actual execution.

More to the point might be 57b. I first thought it was possible that
R' Yaaqov bar Acha at the top of the amud could be taken as the start
of a new sugya. But R' Yishmael's subsequent af al ha'ubarin makes
it clear we're still in the middle of discussing what earns a chiyuv
misah under the 8 mitzvos.

Still, RYBA says that a BN is killed with 1 dayan, with 1 eid, within
hasra'ah -- if the eid is male, even a qarov. If he talking about the
minimum for a Noachide-7th-Law court? If so I would agree that the 7th
mitzvah includes enforcing the other six. But not that they are obligated
to meet out capital punishment, it could be they are licensed to if they
so choose because the person is chayav misah.

Or, RYBA could be saying that a court of 1 Jewish dayan may / is charged
to execute a BN who lives in its jurisdiction on the word of one witness
who could be any non-related man (Yehudi or nachri).

And so I still think there are three ways one could in principle
(not saying any rishonim or acharonim actually take each of the three
positions) understand the Noachide chiyuv of setting up a legal system:

1- to enforce the 7MBN, and RYBA is talind about non-Jewish courts having
   license for capital punishment);

2- to enforce the 7MBN *and* implement the chiyhuv misah (except in normal
   cases of geneivaah); or

3- to create their own laws as necessary for a safe society, and RYBA is
   talking about one Jewish dayan not the 7th mitzvah.
   
   In this 3rd position, the resulting courts could be a fulfillment of
   this particular mitzvah even if they didn't address those of the 7
   mitzvos which are BALM (AZ and birkhas hasheim). And it's possible
   this particular mitzvah wouldn't need to include legally enforcing
   border cases like euthenasia or abortion.

Side question... The gemara quotes R' Yaaqov bar Acha as recorded in
Seifer Agadeta devei Rebbe. What's this doing in a book of aggadeta? And
are we being warned that RYBA only meant to talk halakhah velo lemaaseh?
I just found the citation intriguing.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:06:29AM -0600, Daniel M. Israel wrote:
:>> R' Elazar ben Azarya sad that a person should not say, "I don't want to
:>> wear Shaatnez,"
:>> rather he should say, "I want to, but my father in heaven decreed upon
:>> me that I can not!"?
...
:> What does R' Yisrael Salanter do? He makes a chiluq between kibush hayeitzer,
:> doing the right thing despite taavos otherwise, and tiqun hayeitzer, which
:> is getting the taavos in line. (And primarily a consequence of the hergel
:> set up by kibush).

: I'm missing a step in your comment. How does RYS's chiluk answer
: the question? ...

You're missing a lot of steps. RYS's chiluq wasn't brought as an answer,
but as a set-up for the discussion of the Rambam. RYS says there is a
time when we do a mitzvah despite our own desires and times we bring our
desires in line with the mitzvah. And in fact, he holds that one leads
to the other, so that in RYS's ideal world, one wouldn't want that which
is assur.

But once I had kibush vs tiqun hayeitzer, I can use that to explain
the Rambam. Which is why I mentioned the acharon first rather than
chronological order. The Rambam in 8 Peraqim doesn't expect kibush to
be a route to tiqun hayeitzer ("fake it till you make it") in all mitzvos.

(It bothers me how often I have to go back and explain an unclear post.
Sorry for the time you wasted.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 12:20:24PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Sfat Emet has a nice vort on this weeks parsha.
: Hashev Teshivem - If a person gets lost then the way to bring him back is
: for us to do teshuva and show him the way

I'm reminded of a similar but opposite point made by R' Chaim Volozhiner
and RMMS. What is "and before Whom you are destined to give a din
vecheshbon"? Why the double language, and how do the terms differ? So
they each answer: din is judgment on the cheit itself, cheshbon is the
effects of the cheit on others.

(The Gra says -- din on what we did, cheshbon on what we could have been
doing.)

The Tanchuma (Ha'azinu, end of #10) explains "kaper le'amkha Yisrael asher
padisa" as "kaper le'amkha Yisrael" who are alive, and then "asher padisa"
(in lashon avar) for the meisim. R' Ruderman says this is what is means
that the sifrei chaim and sifrei meisim are opened on RH.

Why do the meisim need kaparah? For the sins living people are doing
today because of the sins they did whlie alive. Similarly the mitzvos
they did could inspire others to do things that have effects after the
person's death, thus earning the kaparah for the dead.


As RYS put it: When a person says LH in the beis medrash in Vilna, they
are mechalel Shabbos in Paris.

This can be understood metaphysically or in terms of a person being
responsible for the decay in mesoretic culture that would have otherwise
kept the Parisian Jew observant. AIUI (but it's my own idiosyncratic
take) RYS would hold that those are two different descriptions of the
same idea.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 02:58:13PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
:> We were discussing "asei Retzono kirtoznkha", which doesn't have this
:> limitation. And implies we should not only do His Will because it's His
:> Will, but we should try to adapt our desires to match His.
: 
: I reject Reb Michas explanation:
: It is a remarkable response, remarkable that Chazal should see [if Reb
: Micha is correct] an expansion of Ma Hu into a completely new arena...

"Qedoshim tihyu ki Qadosh Ani" is also imitatio Dei -- "mah Hu" isn't
as limited in arena as you imply. It also includes the Sifra's "qadeish
es atzmekha bemah shemutar lakh". The famous Ramban on "qedoshim tihyu"
lumps together that chiyuv with "ve'asisa hayashar vehatov", which is more
in line with the examples of mah Hu in the gemara. It's all one thing,
whether bein adam lachaveiro or being so committed to the things He is
that we avoid being distracted even by [otherwise] permissable things. (As
RSShkop explains that medrash's call for perishus.)

Which brings me to a difference between imitatio Dei and asei Retzono
kirtzonkha. Imitatio Dei is an obligation to do things that are not
specifically commanded ("birshus haTorah") because in every situation
(which the above Ramban notes are too many to describe) we much follow
the example HQBH sets for us.

Our discussion is about how to approach mitzvos we are specifically
commanded to so. How should we develop our feelings about refraining
from things that are *not* "birshus haTorah".

IOW, "qedoshim tihyu" means to imitate the RBSO and not make life about
the pursuit of glatt kosher gourmet food. But we're talking about how
we should be approaching our duty to avoid treif.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

R' Saul Newman wrote:

> r oberstein  at c-c  comments---
> Rashi on this week's parsha comments that the parents of the
> engaged girl who is beng stoned have to be there when the
> sentence is carried out. "See the one you raised?" seems to
> me to be public shaming of the mother and father for having
> a child go far off the derech. Does the Torah really mean
> that if a frum family has a child who leaves Yiddishkeit,
> becomes an addict, gets into big legal trouble, that his
> father and mother should be publicly held accountable?
> Isn't that what Rashi is saying and does it not negate much
> of what we have learned subsequently. Can you imagine how
> hurtful this is for anyone who isn't fortunate enough to
> have 100% sucess with all of their children. This affects
> people from the very best families.

Please note that (in my opinion) the first sentence is much more precise
than the rest of what appears here. I'm referring specifically to the words
"FAR off the derech". Parents whose child goes *moderately* off the derech
would not have to suffer this indignity.

Good people can disagree about whether someone "who isn't fortunate enough
to have 100% sucess with all of their children" should be suffering any
indignity at all. My point is that this idea in the parsha, even according
to R' Oberstein, is not directed at the great majority of parents who were
only 90% successful, but only to those whose child went FAR off the derech.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
30-second trick for a flat belly
This daily 30-second trick BOOSTS your body's #1 fat-burning hormone
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/520e6bf2471f76bf223a0st04vuc

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 02:41:15PM -0400, I wrote:
: I'm reminded of a similar but opposite point made by R' Chaim Volozhiner
: and RMMS. What is "and before Whom you are destined to give a din
: vecheshbon"? Why the double language, and how do the terms differ? So
: they each answer: din is judgment on the cheit itself, cheshbon is the
: effects of the cheit on others.

Umm... I think I got RMMS right, but RCV makes the point on the RH
machzor, "maaseh ish ufqudaso". Maaseh ish is the sin, and pequdaso
are the consequent sins by those he influenced.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

R' Aaul Newman brought our attention to this article:

> http://thepartialview.blogspot.co.il/2013/0
> 8/remembering-amalek-this-shabbos-parshas.html

which says, in part:

> Why will some pay special attention this week during
> leining - kriyas hatorah on shabbos parshas ki setzei? ...
> ...
> Some Rishonim  are of the opinion that the mitzvah of
> remembering Amalek must be performed every year.  R. Moshe
> Sofer, the Chasam Sofer, (Even HaEzer no.1: 119) suggests
> that the reason for the annual requirement is based on a
> comment of the Gemara, Berachos 58b, that certain events
> are forgotten after twelve months. The frequency of mitzvas
> zechiras Amalek is based on a requirement to prevent
> forgetting the battle of Amalek.  Therefore, one must
> remember the battle of Amalek every twelve months.

Very interesting. But in my mind, it unleashes a whole boatload of questions.

#1) What would the Chasam Sofer say, if we asked him why previous generations never institutionalized the reading of Ki Sisa in years prior to a leap year?

#2) Parshas Zachor fell on 9 Adar 5772 and on 13 Adar 5773. That too is
over 12 months, even without an Adar Sheni. So this same advice should be
followed in such cases too, no?

#3) Granted that it is over 12 months from 13 Adar 5773 until 13 Adar Sheni
5774. However, Beshalach is scheduled to be read on 10 Shevat 5774. Doesn't
that count? Even if Zechiras Amelek must be read from a Sefer Torah, is the
specific parsha me'akev?

#4) I'm very fuzzy on this whole "special attention" thing. I know that
there's a machlokes over whether Mitzvos Tzrichos Kavana. And I know that
it is often said that we hold that for d'Oraisas, we do indeed need kavana.
Now tell me: How many people actually have this "special attention" when
they remember Yetzias Mitzrayim in the third paragraph of the Shema? If
this "special attention" is so important, why are there no takanos or
minhagim to enforce it for Yetzias Mitzrayim? (Reminders which appear in
modern siddurim don't count.) For that matter, why are there no takanos or
minhagim to enforce this "special attention" on Parshas Zachor?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
30-second trick for a flat belly
This daily 30-second trick BOOSTS your body's #1 fat-burning hormone
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/520e79a07c72f79a07979st04vuc

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 07:11:53PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: #1) What would the Chasam Sofer say, if we asked him why previous
: generations never institutionalized the reading of Ki Sisa in years
: prior to a leap year?

Because, as he said, you can be yotzei with Ki Seitzei and Ki Sisa
without a 2nd reading. The question would only stand if we knew for
sure that the triennial Israeli cycle didn't include some accomodation
for leap years.

...
: #4) I'm very fuzzy on this whole "special attention" thing. I know
: that there's a machlokes over whether Mitzvos Tzrichos Kavana...

I don't think anyone is making a "thing" of it. Just that a deOraisa
of zekhiras Amaleiq that only happens rarely will in practice get more
attention than the weekly derabbanan of leining. Since lemaaseh people's
minds do wander during leining, I could see the CS wanting to remind
people that they have a deOraisa they might be losing this week.

But we do hold that some mitzvos do because kavvanah is an inherent
part of the mitzvah. One can't do avodah shebaleiv without the leiv's
involvement, so tefillah (at least birkhas Avos) and Shema require
kavvanah.

One can remember something without kavanah for the mitzvah, as long as
they have awareness of the memory. But here too, the mitzvah inherently
requires a form of kavvanah by definition.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

>Sholom Simon <sho...@aishdas.org>
>queried
>If an egg found in a Shechted chicken is considered a fleish egg, one would
>think a BP would certainly be fleish, no?
>
>>I say in response 
>>Nice thought, but consider this - how does it become non-meat once it is
laid? We may fry eggs in butter. So, you will say its not really meat Min
HaTorah, its just a Rabbinic ordinance; thats great - so tell me how it
transitions from a Shekets into a Kosher chick, when it opens its eyes or
according to others, when it emerges from its shell?
>
-----------R. Dovid Bleich wrote in volume (edited by E Kanerfogel)  based
on a conference on YU concerning Rashi, Rambam and Ramban that the
parameters of eating birds are different than those governing animals-- 
one comes from an egg and one directly from the mother. the bird's
connection to specie comes solely from resemblance to the bird and not by
virtue of birth---.
unlike animals whose identity is based on the mother from whom it sprung.
An egg itself is neither an animal born of mother nor a bird hatched from
an egg. All three have separate categories.

Zvi Basser

Dont do it! (Unless you are hungry!)

"The mother bird, brooding over its chicks, presents an awe-inspiring
image.  This simple act of nature conveys the most important ethical
imperative. The Mitzvah speaks to man as he encounters nature.  "Observe
carefully a lowly creature faithfully fulfilling its life's purpose by
protecting and rearing its young.  Act at your peril before you disrupt
such an awesome sight of nature.  And remember at the same time to ponder
and take the lesson to heart."

Martin Brody
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 From http://tinyurl.com/kyjso93


By Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff

Question #1:

"I was recently in a shul where they took out the sefer Torah, opened 
it and carried it all around the shul, showing everyone with a yad 
where the beginning of the keri'ah is. I had never seen this before, 
and was wondering if this is a common practice. Is it mentioned in 
halachic sources, or does it simply manifest someone's enthusiasm?"

Question #2:

Is there any halachic basis for the custom on Simchas Torah of 
reversing the sefer Torah so that the writing faces away from the magbiah?

See the above URL for more.  YL
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R' Micha Berger quoted Rabbi Sender Haber:

> The same applies in our homes. We may not rig a scale to
> make us feel bigger or smaller and we may not adjust our
> measuring cups so that we eat less sugar. Reb Shlomo Zalman
> allows some leeway based on societal expectations, but
> ultimately the prohibition to have false weights is very
> real and an important and practical part of the Torah.
>
> The Netziv and the Klei Yakar write that the prohibition
> against owning and using false weights is not just stealing.
> It is about living a lifestyle that goes against the Torah.
> If we honestly believe that Hashem will provide for us (or
> cause us losses) we won't make ourselves crazy trying to
> make shtick with larger weights and smaller weights.

The first paragraph here was very surprising to me, that we must not
attempt to deceive even ourselves. But in light of the second paragraph, I
think it makes a great deal of sense.

It's hard for me to imagine a case like he suggested, where a person's
bathroom scale shows him to weigh less than he really does, because people
tend not to be fooled by such things. On the other hand, it's *not* that
hard for me to imagine someone's scale being set to show him as *heavier*
than the truth, as an incentive to diet better. Yet that too would seem to
be wrong according to Rabbi Haber.

And then a VERY common situation came to mind: People who set their
wristwatches to be 5 or 10 minutes fast, in the hopes that this will help
to keep them prompt for their schedules. It may be effective, but I wonder
if the Netziv and Klei Yakar might disapprove.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
30-second trick for a flat belly
This daily 30-second trick BOOSTS your body's #1 fat-burning hormone
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5212425b460aa425a79a2st02vuc

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 04:04:59PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: It's hard for me to imagine a case like [R' Sender Haber reports that
: RSZA] suggested, where a
: person's bathroom scale shows him to weigh less than he really does,
: because people tend not to be fooled by such things...

I'm would figure RSZA is just analyzing the halakhos, and letting the
chips fall where they may. Our guesses about taamei hamitzvos aside.
Aftr all, BB 89a says "afilu hi avit shel meimei raglayim". Rav Yehudah
meiSura (not to be confused with the usual R' Yehudah, RY at Nehardaa)
says (ad loc) "lo yihyeh lekha beveisekha" and "lo yihyeh bekisekha"
tell you that not to have a false eifah or even (respectively) even
sitting unused in storage. The Chinukh (#602) similarly concludes
"afilu lo yishqol bahem le'olam".

Based on this, my impression of taam hamitzvah here has nothing to do
with whether anyone is going to be fooled. Rather, we are being pushed
to develop a disgust at unethical business practices that is so primal
that no one would even think of having anything associated with it in
their home.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

On 8/19/2013 11:04 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> The first paragraph here was very surprising to me, that we must not
> attempt to deceive even ourselves. But in light of the second
> paragraph, I think it makes a great deal of sense.
>
> It's hard for me to imagine a case like he suggested, where a person's
> bathroom scale shows him to weigh less than he really does, because
> people tend not to be fooled by such things. On the other hand, it's
> *not* that hard for me to imagine someone's scale being set to show
> him as *heavier* than the truth, as an incentive to diet better. Yet
> that too would seem to be wrong according to Rabbi Haber.
>    

Some people recommend that you use a smaller plate when eating so that 
the amount of food seems greater.  It's a useful technique when trying 
to cut down on food quantities.  Would that be an issue as well?

> And then a VERY common situation came to mind: People who set their
> wristwatches to be 5 or 10 minutes fast, in the hopes that this will
> help to keep them prompt for their schedules. It may be effective, but
> I wonder if the Netziv and Klei Yakar might disapprove.
>    

That's an excellent example.  I do this myself.  And if you know someone 
who is always late and you tell them to be there by 5:45 when you really 
want them to be there by 6, knowing that they'll probably *still* not 
make it by 6, would that be an issue as well?

Lisa

 From  http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/736949

Dr. Leiman examines the dubious custom of reciting Psalm 27 in Elul and
Tishrei. He sheds light on the varying customs regarding its inclusion
in tefila and traces its murky liturgical origins.
Given at Kehilas Degel Israel, Kew Gardens Hills

YL

IIRC this has been discussed multiple times and the conclusion isn't so 
clear.

Ben
On 8/20/2013 5:18 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/736949
>
> Dr. Leiman examines the dubious custom of reciting Psalm 27 in Elul and
> Tishrei. He sheds light on the varying customs regarding its inclusion
> in tefila and traces its murky liturgical origins.

On 20/08/2013 10:18 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From  http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/736949
>
> Dr. Leiman examines the dubious custom of reciting Psalm 27 in Elul and
> Tishrei.

There is nothing dubious about a holy custom adopted by almost all of klal
yisrael.  There is something very dubious about calling such a minhag dubious.
Nor are its origins particularly murky.  The first known mention is in Sefer
Shem Tov Katan; nobody knows where he saw or heard it, but nobody much cares,
since he's a good enough source on his own.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:19:46PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> There is nothing dubious about a holy custom adopted by almost all of klal
> yisrael.  There is something very dubious about calling such a minhag dubious.

The Chozeh of Lublin, R' Naftoli Ropshitzer, and the Sanzer Rav (R'
Chaim Halberstam, the Divrei Chaim) all called the minhag dubious because
the Chemdas Yamim was. And therefore lemaaseh there are Chassidim who do
not say LeDavid. So, the accusation does have legs. Even if you disagree
with it, I wouldn't call a decision of the Chozeh "very dubious".

The connection dates back at least to Vayiqra Rabba 21 which ties "ori",
"yish'i" and "ki yitzpeneini besukko" to RH, YK and Sukkos respectively.

R' Chaim haKohein from Aram Tzova, a talmid of R' Chaim Vital, may or
may not have has saying LeDovid in his siddur, depending on who found
the more authentic edition. If he did, he attributed it to the 13
sheimos found in the pereq, which correspond to the 13 Middos haRachamim.

But as for the source of turning that into practice, see also
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2006/09/custom-of-reciting-ldovid-has
hem-ori.html
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2009/09/source-for-recitation-of-ledovid.
html

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 150
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