Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 129

Fri, 19 Jul 2013

• 1. Re: Abortion isn't Murder (Zev Sero)
• 2. Insights Into Halacha: The Dating \ Davening Dilemma (Prof. Levine)
• 3. arithmetic question (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: arithmetic question (Micha Berger)
• 5. Havdalah during the nine days (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: Havdalah during the nine days (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Abortion isn't Murder (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Abortion isn't Murder (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Abortion isn't Murder (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: arithmetic question (Chesky Salomon)
• 11. Mouthwash on Tisha B'Av (was: 25 hour fast) (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 12. Grape Juice (martin brody)
• 13. the 7 nations (saul newman)
• 14. self cleaning oven (Eli Turkel)

On 18/07/2013 6:43 AM, Chana Luntz wrote:
> RZS writes:
>> Please cite *any* source that distinguishes between harigas ubar and
>> harigas ben noach.
>
> How about we start with the Tanna who disagrees with Rabbi Yishmoel on
> Sanhedrin 57b.

That is a good point, but we pasken like R Yishmael.  Or at least the Rambam
does, and almost everyone follows him on this topic.


> Now while the Rambam in Hilchot Melachim perek 9 halacha 4 poskens
> like Rabbi Yishmael, as the Kesef Mishna there notes  [...]
> And, as the Achiezer notes (Achiezer Chelek 3 siman 65 towards the end
> of the siman) the simplest way to explain the Tosphos in Nida 44a-b and
> the Chiddushei HaRan in the third perek of Chullin is that they posken
> like the Tanna Kama and not Rabbi Yishmael.

OK, but that seems not to be the consensus of halacha.


> And note that if you do posken like Rabbi Yishmael, you might have
> something of a problem with the actions of Yehuda and Tamar. After all,
> Tamar was three months pregnant at the time that Yehuda ordered her
> killed. But after all, if there is a prohibition on killing foetuses,
> then Yehuda would have been violating that prohibition twice over (for
> Peretz and Zerach) in not waiting until she gave birth. And the same
> would have to be said for Tamar. It is one thing to say that it is
> better to that I, Tamar, be thrown into a fiery furnace than whiten
> the face of my fellow [ie Yehuda] in public. It is another to say,
> it is better that I, and two additional innocent halachically defined
> souls, whose destruction is murder, be thrown into the fiery furnace
> rather than one person [Yehuda] be embarrassed in public. Even if being
> embarrassed in public is akin to murder, you suddenly don't have the
> 1-1 ratio everybody assumes (Yehuda versus Tamar) but 3:1. How could
> Tamar take that sort of risk? The whole story really only makes sense
> if one holds that uber k'yerech imo applied also to Tamar, even though
> she had the din of a Bas Noach (it being pre Matan Torah).

I don't think that's a problem, for the same reason that it's not a
problem with a Jewish woman who's convicted of a capital crime. AIUI,
"ubar yerech imo" doesn't mean the ubar isn't a person, it means he's
not a *separate* person from his mother. He's part of his mother, and
shares her identity, so her chiyuv misa applies to him too. (Perhaps we
can analogise this to the way a ben pekua's mother's shechita renders
him kosher.)


-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

Many are familiar with the Mishna that declares 
that there was no day of rejoicing in Israel like 
Tu B???Av due to the unique manner of attaining 
shidduchim on that day. Yet, for many single 
girls of marriageable age in the Greater New York 
area nowadays, the day of greatest joy might 
actually be Tu B'Shvat. On that day annually, the 
largest Yeshiva in America, Lakewood New Jersey's 
B.M.G., "opens its freezer", and hundreds, if not 
thousands, of Bochurim are now permitted to date...

Read the full article 
"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/137
4133972-487494bf730fb6e4ca5326c205d5450a-2bdf3f6?pa=487653478464238814&
gt;Insights 
Into Halacha: The Dating \ Davening Dilemma".

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130718/78a32cf1/attachment-0001.htm>

<<Also remember that you're used to thinking of percentages as a fraction
of the starting value, whereas chazal more often speak in terms of a
fraction of the larger value (milevar).>>

I have no problem with the 1/6 being a fraction of the starting or final
value. What confuses me it that the SA seems to be using both
simultaneously. That is onaah is raising (or lowering) the price by exactly
1/6 of EITHER the starting or final values

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130718/301c30da/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 06:49:50PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: I have no problem with the 1/6 being a fraction of the starting or final
: value. What confuses me it that the SA seems to be using both
: simultaneously. That is onaah is raising (or lowering) the price by exactly
: 1/6 of EITHER the starting or final values

You just answered my question about the SMA. I had asked why he doesn't
use the more common way of referring to things -- milegav and milevar --
instead of talking of value and price.

The SMA explains the SA as saying ona'ah applies to both 1/6 the value
of the item and 1/6 the price. Although the side of the exchange that is
violating the pasuq would differ. 1/6 the price milevar is the same as
1/6 the value of the item milegav and visa versa. But in one case we're
looking at ona'ah on the money, and the other ona'ah on the merchandise.

So it would seem the whole point of the SMA is to show that while the
results are the same as using both milegav and milevar, the pesaq is
still logcally consistent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

> But if a particular batch is not sweet enough, they mix it with a grape
> juice concentrate that has concentrated sugars in it to raise the brix
> (sweetness value).

As an aside Kedem has a very different taste than Israeli grape juices. We
once bought Kedem grape Juice in Israel and gave it to some grandchildren
and they couldnt take the taste (too sweet).
I have heard similar but opposite stories in the US of people who liked
Kedem but could not take the Israeli grape juices


[Email #2. -micha]

Akiva asks:
> How does Rav Rimon hold on these other areas? Is grape juice Hagafen?
> Does it become assur on being touched by an akum? Can it be used for
> Friday night
> Kiddush? If he says yes to these three, then I'd like to hear more about
> why he distinguishes between wine and grape juice during the nine days. And
> if his answer is the alcohol, then does he allow beer or whiskey during the
> nine days?

I cant answer all these qiestions but I do have his sefer on the seder
(he goes through every detail of the seder from the halachic viewpoint
together with nice pictures and biographies.

His psak is that first preference for the arba kosos is wine because it
includes "cherut". If one cannot drink wine for any reason (including
simply a deepp distaste) then it is not cherut to drink wine and one can
"lechatchila" (his words) use grape juice.
ie if drinking wine will make it difficult (hichbid) to do the mitzvot
of the night then grape juice is preferable.
(He quotes Griz and RSYE).

I note that what I saw about making havdalah was in one of the shabbat
pamphlets and so does not come with a complete discussion and sources.

--------------------------


(I lost count he can come out with more than 1 a year). They all are
presented from a very practical viewpoint. I strongly feel that his sefer
on shmitta is the best around. Besides bringing all the shitot (including
R. Kook!) he is very knowledgable in the practical side of growing fruits
and vegetables.

In addition to his writing and being a town rabbi in Alon Shvut and
teaching in Har Etzion he has organized and runs the group to provide
employment and other help to those who were evicted from gush katif

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 06:53:15PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: As an aside Kedem has a very different taste than Israeli grape juices. We
: once bought Kedem grape Juice in Israel and gave it to some grandchildren
: and they couldnt take the taste (too sweet).

Unlike WRT animals, species of plant are defined lehalakhah more broadly.
Hil' Kelayim 3:4-6 says it goes by similarity in the leaves look, and how
the fruit looks and tastes -- sensory, not botanical, similarity.) It is
kelayim to cross two animals that cannot produce fertile young (e.g. to
make mules. But it is not kelayim to mix old world and new world grapes.
E.g. the Malaga usually used in Israeli grape juice and the concord used
here. Even though crossbreeding the two produces mules -- seedless grapes.

It's a good thing, because I tend to suggest around Purim time a new
chumerah -- that one cannot use Concord wine (and qal vachomer grape
juice) for the 4 kosos because concord wine may not be yayin. Given
that it's not made from the same species as is yayin from old word grapes.
And the actual definition of botanical "min" keeps this from being more
than Purim Torah, which would create yet another Pesach expense for
many American Jews. (Concord is cheaper here.)

Tangent:
Concord grape juice has more gm carb per cup than Coke. If you ever
are taking care of a diabetic, it's worth knowing that that bottle of
Kedem may be the fastest way to get his carbs up. OTOH, they'll plummet
afterward, it's all simple sugars. So use accordingly.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

On 16/07/2013 9:58 AM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
> The Gem Sanhedrin 57 discusses those things prohibited to NJ, all of
> which are capital offences.

> R Yishmael says it is prohibited for a NJ to kill a foetus and the
> source for this is ShoFech Dam HaAdam BaAdam. This is distinct from
> the transgression of murder of a human; meaning it is clear that
> killing a foetus is not murder.  So there is a NEW prohibition killing
> a foetus, distinct and separate from the sin of murder.

Really? R Yishmael says there are *eight* mitzvos BN?! And the Rambam
(and really everyone) who paskens like him, holds there are eight mitzvos?
Oh, but the same Rambam explicitly says there are seven!

>The Passuk is a descriptor to describe a foetus; it is NOT a definition
> of what is a human.

And you know this how? The pasuk (according to RY, whose view is the
halacha) explicitly calls the foetus "ha'adam".

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:56:20PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> And you know this how? The pasuk (according to RY, whose view is the
> halacha) explicitly calls the foetus "ha'adam".

So a bas noach's fetus is ha'adam in the same sense that she herself is
not? And she is called "ba'adam", with a patach beis. This is a derashah;
peshat doesn't work. (The trop doesn't fit either.)

In any case, you are making a deduction from the ubar having "dam ha'adam"
to its being a person that isn't being made by the Zohar, Tosafos,
the Ran, or acharonim who consider the issur of a Jew killing the very
same velad something other than retzichah. To the extent of believing
that's why the Rambam allows abortion in a risk to the mother for which
he wouldn't allow infanticide.

You don't touch RnCL's argument that it doesn't look like we hold like
R' Yishmael with an assertion. Mena hani mili? She says the Achiezer
understands Tosafos and the Ran differently. So how do you understand
the Achiezer?

For that matter, how do you understand R' Yishmael in light of the fact
that with one exception, the acharonim we discussed allow certain kulos
in abortion by a Jew that wouldn't hold if it were shefichas dam because
they give other bases for the issur. Do you believe that the ubar has
dam ha'adam or not depending on who the shofeich is, like Mitzri water
during makas dam?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

On 18/07/2013 3:49 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 04:56:20PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> And you know this how? The pasuk (according to RY, whose view is the
>> halacha) explicitly calls the foetus "ha'adam".
>
> So a bas noach's fetus is ha'adam in the same sense that she herself is
> not? And she is called "ba'adam", with a patach beis. This is a derashah;
> peshat doesn't work. (The trop doesn't fit either.)

Yes, halacha is controlled by drash, not by peshat.  And yes, she may not
be "adam", but apparently she is "ha'adam".  I'm not sure of the exact
parameters of "atem keruyim adam".


> In any case, you are making a deduction from the ubar having "dam ha'adam"
> to its being a person that isn't being made by the Zohar, Tosafos,
> the Ran, or acharonim who consider the issur of a Jew killing the very
> same velad something other than retzichah.

The pasuk is clear; the ubar is an adam.  To say killing it is not an act
of retzicha, you would have to say that killing an adam isn't necessarily
such an act.  But I don't accept your word that they do in fact consider it
something other than retzicha.  Maybe they say it's a kind of retzicha that
can be allowed, or that's overridden by some other consideration, but unless
you show an explicit statement that it *isn't* retzicha, and that harigas
mi she'ieno mei`ameinu *is*, I dispute that they hold that way.


> To the extent of believing
> that's why the Rambam allows abortion in a risk to the mother for which
> he wouldn't allow infanticide.

He doesn't, and if you say he does you have to explain why the gemara
needs the argument "mishamayim ka-radfu lah".  Unless you say the Rambam,
by not quoting that gemera, paskens against it.



> You don't touch RnCL's argument that it doesn't look like we hold like
> R' Yishmael with an assertion.

I didn't see such an argument in her post.  Just that the Tosfos (which
everyone rejects) may hold like that.


> For that matter, how do you understand R' Yishmael in light of the fact
> that with one exception, the acharonim we discussed allow certain kulos
> in abortion by a Jew that wouldn't hold if it were shefichas dam because
> they give other bases for the issur. Do you believe that the ubar has
> dam ha'adam or not depending on who the shofeich is, like Mitzri water
> during makas dam?

That's precisely what I *reject*, and what I'm arguing *against*.   I'd
say those acharonim who seem to say this have to deal with that question!
Indeed, that question is the very reason I can't accept their opinions!


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no problem with the 1/6 being a fraction of the starting or final
> value. What confuses me it that the SA seems to be using both
> simultaneously. That is onaah is raising (or lowering) the price by exactly
> 1/6 of EITHER the starting or final values

It's been a while since this topic was covered in yeshiva, but here's my
memory:

Given an item with value 210, if the sale is for...
+ less than 175, the sale is void;
+ in the range 175-180, ona'ah applies:
    the sale is valid but the difference must be made up;
+ in the range 180-245, the sale is valid;
+ in the range 245-252, ona'ah applies; or
+ more than 252, the sale is void.

The ranges in which ona'ah applies are determined like this:

+ one-sixth of the starting price --
   1/6 * 210 = 35, so 210 +/- 35 = {175, 245} are ona'ah.

+ one-sixth of the final price --
   6/5 * 210 = 252 1/6 * 252 = 42 = 252210, so 252 is ona'ah ; and
   6/7 * 210 = 180 1/6 * 180 = 30 = 210180, so 180 is ona'ah.

- Chesky

From: Doron Beckerman <beck...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:32:35 +0300
> RYGB's link to his blog relates only to the achilah aspect, but does not
> relate to the rechitzah aspect of using mouthwash. It is well-known thatR'
> Moshe Feinstein forbade using mouthwash on account of rechitzah (seeR'
> Eider's kitzur hilchos bein hametzarim, citing RMF  to this effect).
...

I was referring specifically to someone experiencing dry mouth. That is
a makom tza'ar. It is not for the purpose of pleasure. Just as applying
deodorant is not considered sichah, so too using a mouthwash (or even
water) for dry mouth would not be considered rechitzah.

See also http://www.dinonline.org/2011/08/14/mouthwash-on-tisha-beav

KT,
YGB

P.S. Just to pick a nit, 9 Av is not a 25 hour fast. Even according to
RMF it is 24 hours and 50 minutes. According to the Ba'al HaTanya it is
more like 24 hours and 33 minutes.

"Long ago I heard a shiur from the owner/head/top honcho of some sort of
Kedem. I forget his first name, but his last name was Herzog. He said that
one of the big poskim in EY (he said the name - I forgot it) paskened that
grape juice wasn't wine, because it doesn't ferment. He went to that Posek's
house and told him that it does, indeed, ferment, and offered to prove it to
him. (Obviously, he had a vested interest in people making Kiddush on Kedem
grape juice!) His point was that halachically grape juice is exactly like
wine. Another interesting thing he said about Kedem grape juice (I don't
know if it's true for other brands) is that it's always 100% grape juice.
But if a particular batch is not sweet enough, they mix it with a grape
juice concentrate that has concentrated sugars in it to raise the brix
(sweetness value).

KT,
MYG"

What we call grape juice is a relatively modern invention of Dr.Welch, a
religious teetotal Christian, who wanted a 100% alcohol free drink for
sacramental purposes. The grape juice of the gamara, squeezed before
Shabbat, has already started the fermentation process, so as undetectable
as it is, a short while later, it does have the potential to become wine
and is permitted for kiddush.
Dr. Welsch was using the experimentation of Louis Pasteur as his building
block.The problem with crushing the grapes and then pasteurising them, is
that a tiny bit of fermentation had taken place even in those few seconds.
He figured out correctly, that if he cooked the juice in the skins, before
the crush, there would be no fermentation.And that is the way ALL grape
juice is produced everywhere.(Which BTW is why all stam grape juice is
probably kosher, mevushal, untouched by a gentile. You can all yell at me
about that, but prove it isn't!)( And also Kedem's claim that it does
produce non-mevushal grape juice is a bit lame, because by FDA law and
Kedem's own admission it is cooked at the regulatary minimum which I think
is 160 degrees.Yes, I'm aware of the mevushal/temperature arguements)
 As an added protection, grape juice is then pasteurised 3 more times
during the production/bottling etc.
So the question is, can it ferment after all this pasteurising?
Well, try leaving opened grape juice unrefridgerated for a while and see
what happens! Somethinh horrible happens! However, it is totally
impotatable and cannot be considered wine at all. Vinegar tastes much
better.
So modern day cooked grape juice for kiddush/havdala/weddings/britim/4 cups
is a huge heter., and not permitted in my very strict house.
Hope that's informative,
L'chaim

Martin Brody
310 474 1856
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130718/a4237a66/attachment-0001.htm>

http://torahtalk.michaelcarasik.com/files/8/9/4/8/3/1
47796-138498/45_Va_etchanan_5773.pdf
is there a clear  reason for the variations?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130718/f0c1951e/attachment-0001.htm>

From what I have seen the consensus is that one can kasher a self cleaning
oven by putting it through its cycle. This also applies to the racks inside
the oven.

Question: If one puts a pot that needs libun inside the self cleaning oven
during its clean cycle is that also ok?

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20130719/8b3757ae/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 129
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)