Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 127

Tue, 16 Jul 2013

• 1. Re: 25 Hour Fast (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 2. Re: 25 Hour Fast (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Abortion isn't Murder (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Nechama (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Kesuvot 112a - Any geologists who are familiar with the geology of EI? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: 25 Hour Fast (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: 25 Hour Fast (harchinam)
• 8. chitat 9 av (saul newman)
• 9. limud vs seder hayom (saul newman)
• 10. Re: limud vs seder hayom (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: 25 Hour Fast (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 12. tora and 9 av (saul newman)
• 13. Re: Nechama (Zev Sero)
• 14. Abortion isn't Murder (Chana Luntz)

I suggest washing one's mouth. See 
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2013/07/heat-wave-suggestion-mouthwash-o
n-tisha.html

YGB

On 7/16/2013 11:08 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:19:38AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> : Given the heat wave and severe humidity, would
> : it be considered advisable to drink some water to
> : avoid dehydration. We are talking about "for health"
> : issues.
>
> CYLOR *in advance* about which health issues qualify.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:57:24AM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> I suggest washing one's mouth. See  
> http://rygb.blogspot.com/2013/07/heat-wave-suggestion-m
> outhwash-on-tisha.html

That wouldn't help someone stay hydrated.

-Micha

On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 05:58:40PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 15/07/2013 5:01 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> Just because the topic came up on Areivim a mere 2-1/2 months after the
>> last time it did here, I thouhgt I would just list the sources posted
>> here in the past which insist that abortion isn't murder.

> Please cite *any* source that distinguishes between harigas ubar and
> harigas ben noach.

Among the dozen or so posqim I cited, only RMF says that abortion is
hereg at all.

But even leshitas RMF, the comparison would be more to chatzi shiur
on the issur retzichah. For example, there is no statement about misah
biydei Shamayim WRT abortion. (I point you again to the Tosafos on Nidda
44a-b d"h "ihu".)

-Micha

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:09:23AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: In the famous gemara at the very end of makkot, R. Akiva and the rabbis are
: walking near har habayit and see a fox. The rabbis cry and R. Akiva laughs
: R. Akiva asks why are they crying - a strange question
: They ask why he is laughing

It's only a strange question if you don't think he was being Socratic.
IOW, I htink the question was just to get them to express their opinion
which he then uses as a foil for his own.

...
: R. Akiva answer that he is laughing because of the connection of 2
: prophecies guarantees that there will be a salvation

First, R Aqiva thought at this point in his life that the ge'ulah would
be immanent. This is before Bar Kochva.

According to R' Saadia Gaon, laughter comes from a sudden realization
of a hidden truth. R' Aqiva had that realization. This is one of three
such stories about R' Aqiva. And I think that's the point -- R' Aqiva
isn't taking nechamah from a long-distant future, he sees Hashem's hand
in events, and got the "punchline" before Hashem tells it. The nechamah
is from seeing that there really is a process and a meaning.

1- When he hears the celebrations of the Roman camp:

    It happened that Rabban Gamliel, Rabbi Elazar Ben Azarya, Rabbi
    Yehoshua and Rabbi Akiva were walking along the road and heard the
    sound of the Roman masses from Pelitus, one hundred and twenty mil
    away. They began crying, but Rabbi Akiva laughed.

    They asked him, "Why do you laugh?" He said to them, "And you,
    why do you cry?"

    They said to him, "These pagans, who bow to images and bring
    offerings to idolatry, dwell in security and tranquility, whereas
    we -- the house [that is] the footstool of our God has been burned
    by fire. Shall we not cry?"

    He said to them, "It is for that reason that I laugh. If this is
    how it is for those who violate His will, then all the more so for
    those who perform His will!

2- The story RET retold.

Both on Makkos 24a-25b

3- When he saw R' Eliezer on his deathbed (Sanhedrin 101a):

    When Rabbi Eliezer became ill, his students went to visit him. He said
    to them, "There is great anger in the world" [referring to Hashem's
    giving power to the Romans]. They started to cry, except Rabbi Akiva
    who laughed. They said to him, "Why do you laugh?" He answered them,
    "And why do you cry?" They said to him, "Is it possible that one
    sees the scroll of the Torah in pain, and we do not weep?"

    He responded, "It is for that reason that I laughed. As long as
    I saw my rebbe, that his wine did not turn sour, his flax did not
    get smitten, his oil did not spoil, and honey did not crystallize,
    I could say that perhaps ch"v rebbe had received his world [now,
    not in the world-to-come]. But now that I see that rebbe suffers,
    I am happy." [Rabbi Eliezer] said to [Rabbi Akiva], "Did I neglect
    any matter of the Torah [for which I now suffer]?" [Rabbi Akiva]
    said to him, "Our rebbe, you taught us, 'For there is no righteous
    man on earth who does good without sinning.' (Koheles 7:20)"

I wrote about these three stories, R' Saadia Gaon's explanation of
laughter, Moshe Rabbeinu being able to give nevu'ah with "zeh hadavar",
other nevi'im using "koh", the lack of "koh" denoted by "eikhah", the
nature of aveilus, and what it means to be yishrei leiv and to give
tehilah / hallel at <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2001/08/idealism.shtml>.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 02:38:22PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: Someone speculated this was because of the pasuk in Ekev 8:9
: "eretz asher avoneho barzel" but so far as I know EI is not
: blessed with abundant and ever present (heavier) iron ore...

I thought of the story with Reish Laqish, and R Yochanan realizing
that RL's teshruvah was real when he couldn't jump back over the river.
Once he was burdnered with Torah, Reish Laqish couldn't jumo the same.
Maybe R' Chanina was "shoqeil avanim" in his hand, testing his own
reaction to EY, not the stone's!

Another geological possibility rather than denser stones or a heavier
composition is that EY has larger stones than on the route from Bavel.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Rav Melamed actually allows brushing teeth (with toothpaste).
http://en.calameo.com/read/001660802d043b84fc1cb
(go to page 34)

Ben

On 7/16/2013 6:57 PM, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> I suggest washing one's mouth. See http://rygb.b

> logspot.com/2013/07/heat-wave-suggestion-mouthwash-on-tisha.html
>
> YGB

Is this really a group of mostly men? I am a bit surprised at this thread.

The fast is already over [at least in EY] but this is the kind of weather
we have EVERY 9AV, so here are some suggestions for next year:

Before the fast, drink at least 2 liters of water the day of the fast
spread out through the day. At the seuda hamafseket or the late afternoon
meal, eat a lot of watermelon and grapes. Do not eat anything salty or
spicy before the fast.

Do NOT go outside more than just to go a short distance to shul. Stay in
your house in the air conditioning. Do NOT go to work or on a hike or
running errands. Stay home/at shul and take a nap if possible, since
sleeping helps you to fast better since your body is spared putting out a
lot of energy during the fast.

The ikkar here is to prevent dehydration, not to try to stop a fast because
you are a little dried out....

*** Rena



On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
<r...@aishdas.org>wrote:

> I suggest washing one's mouth. See http://rygb.blogspot.com/2013/**
> 07/heat-wave-suggestion-**mouthwash-on-tisha.html<http://rygb.blogspot.com/2013/07/heat-wave-suggestion-m
> outhwash-on-tisha.html>
>
> YGB
>
> On 7/16/2013 11:08 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:19:38AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
>> : Given the heat wave and severe humidity, would
>> : it be considered advisable to drink some water to
>> : avoid dehydration. We are talking about "for health"
>> : issues.
>>
>> CYLOR *in advance* about which health issues qualify.
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/**listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.**org<;<
> a
> href='http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org'>http:/
> /lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org>
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supposedly this is the source not to defer to the night
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15941&;st=&pgnum=370

though it doesnt specifically say that it is not considered limmud torah
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this i guess is a specifically minhag chabad question. seems L postpones
learning RMBM yomi till the nite ;   but ChITAT [chumash /tehillim/tanya]
post chatzot.

i wonder if the reasoning is somehow akin to 'seder hayom'  ie  korbanot or
shema is 'said' not learned;  so too it would seem the chitat is not done
then  daily als limud tora , for if so , it should also like RMBM not be
'learned' on 9 Av.     if this is true , it would seem that one is
 -saying-  chumash or tanya, not learning it...

unless  there was a takana to allow  'learning'  ChiTAT  just like learning
eicha or iyov;  but since it's not sad , to defer until post chatzot.....
 yet am not aware of other communities  liberalizing WHAT you can learn
post chatzot...
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Y-mi Yomi skips 9 beAv and Yom Kippur.

One because it's assur, the other because you are likely to have other
priorities.

-Micha

On 7/16/2013 2:15 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Rav Melamed actually allows brushing teeth (with toothpaste).
> http://en.calameo.com/read/001660802d043b84fc1cb
> (go to page 34)

Here http://ph.yhb.org.il/05-07-05/ he forbids the use of toothpaste on 
9 Av (courtesy of R' Gil Student).

YGB

seen online.....

So maybe we just don't accept this ruling of the Rema. It wouldn't be the
first time. However, I like to turn to the words of the Chafetz Chayim
*(BH* 553),
who writes:

I am inclined to allow, even on a weekday, to study until near twilight,
and were I not apprehensive of my colleagues, I would say that even on the
day of 9 Av itself, we should be lenient; for in our great sins, the
generations have become corrupted, and on the day of 9 Av they loiter in
the streets and engage in idle chatter, and even those who are literate and
some of the scholarly are lenient about this.

If this sage had lived another century and witnessed Google chats and
Facebook loitering, I think he would have overcome his apprehension


---halevai one's worst sins were learning forbidden tora on tisha bav...
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On 16/07/2013 5:42 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>   R' Aqiva
> isn't taking nechamah from a long-distant future, he sees Hashem's hand
> in events, and got the "punchline" before Hashem tells it. The nechamah
> is from seeing that there really is a process and a meaning.

Cf Rivka taking comfort from the explanation for her difficult labour.
The labour was no less difficult or painful, but once she knew why it was
happening and what would result from it, she could bear it.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

RMB writes:

>Just because the topic came up on Areivim a mere 2-1/2 months after the
last time it did here, I thouhgt I >would just list the sources posted here
in the past which insist that abortion isn't murder.

I am sure that I have also posted the Tzitz Eliezer's summary and round up
of the achronim from Tzitz Eliezer chelek 9, siman 51 perek 3 but if not,
here it is in the original Hebrew and with my translation:

????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??
 ?' ?? ?? ???? ?? ???????. ??? ??? ????? ????
?' ????? ???? ???? ?? ???????.

?' ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????
?????.
?' ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????"? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???????
??????? ?? ??"? ]???? ????[ ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?"? ???? ???. ???"?
????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????. ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????"? ??
???? ????? ?? ???? ?????.
?' ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????
????  ????? ???.
?' ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??????.
?' ????? ?? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????
?' ?"? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???.
?' ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????.

?' ?? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ???????
???? ???? ???? ?????, ??"? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???,
???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????.
?"? ?? ?? ????? ??"? ?????? ?????
?"? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ????"? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????
?????? ??? ?????? ????' ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???
???? ?????? ?????? [??? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????].
,    
?"? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ?' ????? ???????
??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??
??"? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????
??????.       
?"? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????
????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????  ?"? ??
????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????
???    
?"? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?"? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????
?"? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????
????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????
????? ????? ???, ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????.

?"? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????,
??????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????
???????  ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????. ???? ?? ??? ??? ????
????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ?????? ???  

The conclusion that arises l?halacha from what has been said in this
section:

1. a non Jew merits the death penalty for [killing] fetuses, and there is an
opinion that they do not merit the death penalty;
2. a Jew does not merit the death penalty for [killing] fetuses;
3. when there is a need [tzorech] the rule is that it is permitted to
arrange for a woman to abort and it is better that this is performed by
way of a Jewish doctor;
4. it is stricter regarding the performing of an abortion on a non-Jew than
on a Jew because they [ie the non-Jews] are commanded [ie forbidden in the
killing of] also on fetuses and one can violate [the prohibition of putting
a stumbling block] before the blind when there is no other who is able also
to perform the act. But that which is written it is forbidden is when there
is not seen to be a danger to the woman and likewise when there is a need to
perform an abortion on a non Jewish woman, one should be careful that this
is done by way of a Jewish doctor;
5. there are those who hold that even though a Jew does not merit the death
penalty for killing fetuses, in any event there is a prohibition from the
Torah to do this;
6. there are those who hold that even a prohibition from the Torah there is
none, and there is only a prohibition from the rabbis;
7. and there are also those who hold that even the prohibition from the
rabbis that there is is weak;
8. according to the hidden torah [kabbalah] the prohibition of aborting a
fetus is very strict;
9. when it is seen that there is a danger to the woman with continuing the
pregnancy it is permitted to abort the fetus without any difficulty;
10. also when the situation is that the health of the woman is very weak and
for the sake of healing her or quieting her great pain it is needed to
perform an abortion on the fetus, even though there is no fundamental danger
[sakana mamashis]; also there is place to permit this to be done according
to the view of the decisor when he sees the situation which is before him;
11. and similarly there is to permit likewise when the woman is nursing;
12. a married woman who was unfaithful or was raped and conceived (even from
a non Jew where the baby would not be a mamzer) and she does teshuva, with
the support of many gedolei poskim it is permitted to abort either because
of her embarrassment or because of the chillul hashem and the stain and
embarrassment of the family [if not for other reasons as mentioned inside];
13. to perform an abortion prior to the expiry of 40 days of the pregnancy
and also including before 3 months of the pregnancy it is much more lenient
than performing it after this and there is on this support to permit to
perform an abortion prior to the expiry of the aforesaid when the fetus is
no longer moving and also when there is a justifiable suspicion that the
fetuses will be born defective or subject to pain [baal mum or baal isurim];
14. on the other hand to kill the baby when the woman sits already on the
birthing stool and the fetus has already uprooted itself to come out it is
very serious because it has uprooted itself and there is no permission in
this situation except in a case of definite danger to the mother [sakana
shel mamash]
15. also in a place where the halacha gives to permit abortion in all cases
you need to seek on this also the agreement of the husband because it is his
money;
16. and so to repeat to perform an abortion by way of the medical system you
may do a physical action [ma'ase b'yadaim];
17. a woman who is sick from a very dangerous sickness which makes her
terminally ill and if the pregnancy is allowed to continue it will bring her
death closer and the woman requests that they not make for her an abortion
saying it does not matter to her if they bring her death closer so long as
she leaves behind offspring there is place to permit this and not do
anything [shev v'al ta'aseh];
18. all Jews are warned with a great warning not to behave in a frivolous
manner in terminating a pregnancy, and a great responsibility falls both on
the asker and the asked. Besides that which is in this
[a danger] because of the potential of a breaching of the boundaries by the
wanton who will behave immorally after them, but also because the people of
the world limit themselves in this matter and make restrictions and severe
punishments on the [killing of] fetuses and on those who help
 them and Jews are to be holy.

Note that each of these items is further detailed and elaborated on in the
body of the teshuva - with the sources as to who said what.

>Before I do so, I must acknowledge RMF's daas yachid in IM CM 2:69(b),
which argues it is murder.

I have been told (although I have no written source) that the late
Lubavitcher Rebbe held similarly - which may be where RZS is coming from.
However, it is certainly true that these are very much minority opinions.

>Tosafos say abortion is mutar on Niddah 44b "eihu". This is usually
interpreted away: That either they are >saying it isn't under the same issur
as for benei Noach, but still assur, or that they are speaking only >bemaom
saqanah.

>The Ran (Chullin 58a) says abotion is deRabbanan.

Here are some of the primary sources on which the Rishonim draw:

???? ??? ??

)??( ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????
???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????: 
)??( ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???:

1.      Shemos 21
        (22) If men quarrel and hurt a pregnant woman so that she
miscarries, and yet no fatality ensues: he shall surely be punished
according to what the woman?s husband will cause to be assessed upon him and
he shall pay as the judges determine.
        (23) But if a fatality ensues it will be that you shall give a life
for a life.

?????? ?' ?"? 
???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????. ???? ????? ?? ????? - ??????? ?? ??
????.  

2.      Arachin 7a (Mishna)
        When a woman is going out to be killed [by judicial execution] we do
not wait for her until she gives birth. When a woman is sitting on the
birthing stool we wait until she gives birth.
????? ???? ???? ?????? ?' ?"?
?????, ???? ???! ???????, ?"? ?????: ????? ????? [???? ??] ???? ???? ????
??? ????, ????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?????, ??"?. ????? ?"?! ??? ??? ????
??? ??? ?????, ??? ???: [????? ??] ???? ?? ?????, ????? ?? ?????. ?
???? ?? ????? ???'. ?"?? ???? ????, ???? ?????? ???. ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????:
???? ?????? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ???
??? ???? ?????.

3.      Talmud Bavli Arachin 7a (Gemora)
        It is obvious [that we do not wait], it is her body.  What might one
have thought? since it says in Shemos 21:22 ?as the husband of the woman
shall cause to be assessed upon him? ? [one would think that the fetus is]
the property of the husband and it should not be lost to him, therefore we
learn [that we don?t wait until she gives birth] .  But let us say this
indeed [that we should wait].  Rabbi Abahu said in the name of Rav Yochanan
it is written [Devarim 22:22] ?and also both of them shall die? to include
the fetus.  ?

        One who sat on the birthing stool: what is the reason?  Since it
uprooted itself it is [considered] another body.  Rav Yehuda said in the
name of Shmuel a woman who is taken out to be killed, we strike against her
womb, in order to kill the fetus first in order that she shall not come to
disgrace.

????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?
????? ?? ??? ??? ...??????? ????...
??????? ????: ?????: [????? ?"?] ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? - ?"?.         

4.      Talmud Bavli Nida 43b-44b
        Mishna:? A child of one day ? one who kills him is liable [for the
death penalty]?

        One who kills him is liable:  As it says [Vaikra 24:17] If a man
strike any life -  in all cases [even a one day old child ? but by
implication not an unborn fetus]

????? ?"? ???? ?'
???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ????
????? ?????? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???.

5.      Mishna Oholes perek 7 Mishna 6
        A woman who is finding it hard to give birth, we chop up the fetus
inside the womb and we take it out limb by limb because her life has
priority to its [life].  When the majority has come out, we may not touch
it, because we do not push aside a life for a life.

????? ???? ???? ??????? ?"? ?"?
??? ?? ????: ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???
???? ?? ??? ???. ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???
???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???. ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?? .


6.      Talmud Bavli Sanhedrin  72b
        Rav Huna said, a minor who is chasing after another to kill him, we
are permitted to save by means of [taking] his life, as we hold that a
person chasing after another to kill [a rodef] does not need a legal
warning, and it is no difference whether he [the rodef] is an adult or a
minor.  Rav Chisda asked on this from the mishna [Oholos], as it teaches
?once its head has come out we may not touch it, because we do not push
aside a life for a life? and why, [should it not be considered] a rodef?  It
is different there because the mother is being pursued by heaven.

????? ???? ???? ??????? ?"? ?"?
????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???????...  ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???????.

  ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????
??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???, ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??????
???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? /????/ ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???
???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???.

7.      Talmud Bavili Sanhedrin 57b
        Mishna:? According to Rabbi Yishmoel they said [a non Jew is liable
for the dealth penalty] even for [murdering] fetuses.  

According to Rabbi Yishmoel they said [a non Jew is liable for the death
penalty] even for [murdering] fetuses:  What is the reason of Rabbi Yishmoel
as it is written [Breishis 9:6]  ?one who has spilt the blood of a man in a
man his blood shall be spilt? ? who is a man who is in a man ? behold say
this is a fetus in the womb of its mother.  And the Tanna Kama [who
disagrees with Rabbi Yishmoel by not including this in his list of things
for which a non Jew is liable for the death penalty how does he understand
that pasuk? he] learns in accordance with the view of the house of Menashe
that is to say that all executions that they mention in connection with a
non Jew is only [by means of] strangulation, because they apply the ?in a
man? to the end of the verse and they learn how is ?in a man that his blood
shall be spilt? what is the spilling of blood of a man when it is in the
body of a man, behold this is strangulation.

>The Minchas Chinukh says that abortion for BN is punished with death
because it's a 7MBN and explcitly >excludes it being because it's retzichah
mamsh. And that's why the Rosh says that a Yehudi may abort a bas >Noach's
velad to save her life because it's dechuyah bemaqom sakanah like any other
issur.a

>The Zohar Shemos 3b describes abortion as being a horrible destruction of
HQBH's handiwork, the same language >it uses to describe shichvas zera
levatalah. The Chabos Ya'ir (teshuvah 31) also considers abortion to be
>hota'as SZL.

>The Maharit (1:97) concludes abortion is asur as a form of injury to the
mother.

>The Mishtetei Uziel (CM 4:46, others cited 3:47) says it's like shefichas
damim only because the gemara likens >all neglect of piryah verivyah to
shefichas damam. Leshitaso, abortion derives from piryah veriyah (an asei)!

>The Tzitz Eliezer, when he is choleiq with RMF (one of 7:48, 9:51:3,
13:102), opines that RMF's raayah chilul >Shabbos doesn't prove anything,
since "challel alav Shabbos achas kedei sheyishmo Shabasos harbei"
>applies to an ubar. This draws from the Ramban, Toras HaAdam (d"h
"ubeHalakhos Gedolos", R' Chavel ed. pg 29). >He too concludes it's hotza'as
zera levatalah, and cites the Yaavetz in 1:43.

>Although to be fair, RYE is speaking about aborting without 72 hours,
"morning after" in today's political >parlance, to prevent the birth of a
mamzer, or a woman having to carry the product of her being raped. So the
>TE is taking it further than one has to insist the Yaavetz intended.

Where do you see that the Ya'avetz it talking about aborting within 72
hours? (that he is talking about a potential mamzer, I agree).  In those
days I don't think they had morning after pills, or indeed ways of being
sure that a woman was pregnant, so if that had been the case, he would
needed to have talked about a safek pregnancy.  

>(Although there is no reason to insist otherwise, either.) And in any case,
the TE is an acharon to cite in >his own right.

>RJHendell quoted RASoloveitchik who notes that the Rambam (Rotzeiach
>1:9) says the ubar is "KErofeif achareha", snf it'd only in the case of
mishehotzi rosho that the Rambam says >"ein dchon nefesh mipenei nefesh".
>RAS understands the Rambam as saying the ubar isn't really a rodeif --
there is no pursuit of the mother, teva >put the two in conflict. Which is
why the Rambam doesn't allow infanticide after crowning to save the mother.
>But before that, the ubar isn't really a nefesh either, so it being
KErodeif is enough.

>This is the shitah of ROY (Yabia Omer 4, EH 1).

>RIAZ cited Eirukhin 7a, where the gemarah is discussing a mishnah that says
that BD kills a pregnant woman >without waiting for the baby is born.
>The gemara's asks that this is too obvious to even warrant a mishnah, since
a fetus is part of the mother. So >it explains that I might have had a hava
amina that the father's stake would override.

>In a similar vein was my citation this past may of Y-mi Qiddushin 13b,
where a shifchah can accepts a gett >shichrur on behalf of her velad because
it's part of her. (An eved cannot accept a gett shichrur for
>another.)

>R' Eli Turkel (2011) simply listed mar'eh meqomos from Enecy Hilchatit
Refu'it by R' Dr Steinberg:
        Ramban (nidah 41a)
        Yad Ramah (Sanhedrin 57b)
        Radvaz (vol 2 #695)
        Drisha EH 13:4
        Sma CM 425:8,
        Sridei Esh  (vol 3:127)
    and many others
    see also Tosafot Sotah 26a

See also  Rashi on Sanhedrin 72b:

??"?: ??????? ?"? ?"?
??? ????, ???? ????? ???? ???????, ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???????
???????? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????
?? ???, ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????
???.           

?His head has come out? in a woman who is finding it hard to give birth and
is in danger, and it teaches that it is permitted for the midwife to put in
her hand and chop him up and bring him out in pieces, since at all times
that it has not come out to the air of the world it is not a life and it is
permitted to kill him to save its mother but once its head has come out we
do not touch him and one is subject to the death penalty like one who is
born  as we do not push away a life for a life.


>Micha

Regards

Chana



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