Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 119

Tue, 25 Jun 2013

• 1. Re: kesiva and tzovea (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. elijah arrival (saul newman)
• 3. Re: elijah arrival (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: kesiva and tzovea (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: elijah arrival (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Medicine on Shabbos (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: Landau's shul policy (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 8. Re: Landau's shul policy (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Medicine on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Kosher Agencies Deal with Annual Summer Issue: Slurpees (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Late night radio (Chana Luntz)
• 12. Re: Kosher Agencies Deal with Annual Summer Issue: Slurpees (Lisa Liel)
• 13. Re: Da'as Torah (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: 9th of Tamuz (Micha Berger)
• 15. Current events (Simon Montagu)
• 16. Admin: Tremendous Spiritual Opportunity! (Micha Berger)

R' Eli Turkel asked:

> Next Question:
> Kesiva requires 2 letters near each other.
> If one writes (on paper/parchment) only one letter why is one
> then not chayav for tzovea anyway?

Maybe he is! Does anyone explicitly say not?

Akiva Miller

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does the gmara's assertion that eliyahu will not come  erev  hachag  due to
tircha for klal yisrael  rise to level of halacha   ie  that  we can be
sure the RBSO  is  required to follow that meimra in the gmara ?       and
i thought that some  { L ? }   assert that pikuach nefesh is doche on this
issue....
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On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 02:10:12PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: does the gmara's assertion that eliyahu will not come  erev  hachag  due to
: tircha for klal yisrael  rise to level of halacha   ie  that  we can be
: sure the RBSO  is  required to follow that meimra in the gmara ? ...

We can't learn halakhah from aggadita, I presume neither is aggadita binding
on Him either.

But as for how the ge'ulah will actually turn out, the only good answer is
"teiqu!"

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RET:

<<If one writes (on paper/parchment) only one letter why is one then not 
chayav for tzovea anyway?>>

The paradigmatic case of tzovea is taking a hunk of wool/yarn/cloth and 
immersing all of it it in a vat of dye.  The paradigmatic case of ksiva 
is carefully putting ink on part of a region of parchment in order to 
make a shape which has meaning.  There's a real sense in which they are 
opposites: kesiva/mtzayer is about shape, and tzovea is about color.

Of course there are marginal cases: would someone be hayav for tzovea or 
metzayer for tie-dying a T shirt? I'm inclined to guess metzayer, but I 
have no evidence for any of this.

David Riceman

On 23/06/2013 6:48 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 02:10:12PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
> : does the gmara's assertion that eliyahu will not come  erev  hachag  due to
> : tircha for klal yisrael  rise to level of halacha   ie  that  we can be
> : sure the RBSO  is  required to follow that meimra in the gmara ? ...
>
> We can't learn halakhah from aggadita, I presume neither is aggadita binding
> on Him either.

It's not agadeta, it's in a halachic section, and is advanced and accepted
seriously as a halachic argument, with implications in practical day-to-day
halacha.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> I remember as a kid being taught that the reason
> you don't take medicine on Shabbos (except for
> something serious, which as we see is not that
> simple to define) is because Shabbos itself heals. 

R' Micha Berger responded:
> It's a cute thought, but the gemara is clear why. It's a
> gezeira lest people grind the herbs, as was normally done
> immediately prior to usage. There is no obligation to
> represent the healing power of Shabbos. Especially if for
> most of us, other factors would get in the way of actually
> benefiting from that power. And "ein somkhin al haneis"
> might actually *prohibit* relying on such supernatural
> effects.

Aside from not understanding the phrase "obligation to represent", I
basically agreed with RMB when I first saw this. But then I started to
think about what Cantor Wolberg said, in terms of "Shabbos hee miliz'ok,
urefuah krova lavo."

We are told not to make personal requests on Shabbos, even for someone's
refuah, but to say this formula instead. But in what way is this formula
*not* a request or a tefila? It seems to me that if this saying doesn't
constitute a prayer for refuah, it must be an expression of confidence that
the refuah *will* come - and quickly! - even without any tefilah for it.

Now think about that. Whence this confidence that the refuah will come even
without asking for it? We certainly don't act that way during the week; why
only on Shabbos?

I'd like to suggest that RMB has explained why we're not *allowed* to take medicine on Shabbos, and CW has explained why we don't *need* to.

Akiva Miller
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On 6/19/2013 3:53 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 03:15:51PM EST, RYGB wrote:
>> I do not think the contemporary category of meshulachim can be viewed in
>> the same manner as the truly impoverished of yesteryear.

> Because they're meshulachim, or because few people today are as desperate?
> What would you say about someone collecting for themselves, not a
> shaliach for a mosad? Would you say that his need isn't likely to be
> pressing enough to justify interrupting davening either?

> Or does "dei machsero" mean that we recognize that desperation is
> sociologically defined?

The latter. Few people today are as desperate. So many people are 
collecting because that is a better alternative for them than other 
pursuits.

KT,
YGB

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 01:05:13AM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
>> Or does "dei machsero" mean that we recognize that desperation is
>> sociologically defined?
>
> The latter. Few people today are as desperate. So many people are  
> collecting because that is a better alternative for them than other  
> pursuits.

You lost me.

If
    dei machsero means that today's tzedaqah recipient is indeed to be
    treated as being as desperate as the one who collected 200 years
    ago for sheer survival,
then
    "the contemporary category of meshulachim CAN be viewed in the
    same manner as the truly impoverished of yesteryear"! Despite your
    opening "I don't think". Including when it comes to proritizing
    their desperation against our kavanah during davening.

Which I thought was the opposite of your thesis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 04:10:01AM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: ... I basically agreed with RMB when I first saw this. But then I
: started to think about what Cantor Wolberg said, in terms of "Shabbos
: hee miliz'ok, urefuah krova lavo."

: We are told not to make personal requests on Shabbos, even for someone's
: refuah, but to say this formula instead. But in what way is this formula
: *not* a request or a tefila? It seems to me that if this saying doesn't
: constitute a prayer for refuah, it must be an expression of confidence
: that the refuah *will* come - and quickly! - even without any tefilah
: for it.

Actually, RYBS understands this formula as acknowledging that we are
defying Shabbos for sefeiq piquach nefesh. And thus he holds that Mi
sheBeirakh is only said on Shabbos for someone that ill.

Not an expression of confidence, but a request that our violation of
Shabbos is not for naught.

Also, this probihition is far from absolute. The Gra doesn't say any
of the "HaRachaman"s when benching on Shabbos. Do you?

But I acknowledged the refu'ah power of Shabbos. What I wrote, perhaps
poorly phrased (as RAM already noted) was:
:> It's a cute thought, but the gemara is clear why. It's a
:> gezeira lest people grind the herbs, as was normally done
:> immediately prior to usage. There is no obligation to
:> represent the healing power of Shabbos. Especially if for
:> most of us, other factors would get in the way of actually
:> benefiting from that power...

I divorced the real existence of a healing power of Shabbos from (1) the
issur of refu'ah beShabbos as well as (2) being able or even allowed to
count on it.

: I'd like to suggest that RMB has explained why we're not *allowed*
: to take medicine on Shabbos, and CW has explained why we don't *need* to.

I personally believe that the metaphysical rules of how HQBH runs the
universe are so complex, and so many of them entirely beyond our ability
to reason out even individually, that there is no way to take any of
them as givens.

Tzadiq vera lo is just the most frustrating part of a general inability.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 12:57:03PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: I don't follow this logic. Let's suppose that at 10 AM, this machine
: contained 92 ounces of non-kosher Slurpee...

I don't either.

Let me throw in another element of metzi'us that I didn't hear them
mention, so I cannot assume they are relying upon.

In order to keep the texture as desired, Slurpee machines have a corkscrew
inside that keeps the liquid constantly in motion. So, no one part of
the liquid just sits against the container wall for 24 hours.

It also means any taaroves caused by not fully washing out the treif
stuff before putting the official Slushee syrup in is really mixed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

In Avodah V31n117, RLK asked:
>> "Answer: In absolutely no way should Shimon offer her a regular ride!
This is a 'Chesed Shlili' and has to be avoided."
>> Why is this bothering me so much? <

And RMP replied:

>Because the proponent of such a position may be a chassid shoteh?

I confess that while I often highly critical of many rulings which assur
under the purported banner of tzniut, in this particular case I have a lot
of sympathy for the psak.  A situation which is going to see Shimon and
Shoshana spending what may be an hour or more alone in a car (to work and
back) on a daily basis, is, to my mind, and despite the very best of
intentions, something which is asking for trouble.  

Take this scenario:  One morning Shimon has a disagreement with his wife,
and leaves home fuming.  He can't help it but unburden himself to the
nearest available ear, which of course is Shoshana in his car.  Shoshana has
nothing else to do but listen to Shimon, and after all, he is doing her a
big chesed, so naturally she listens attentively and provides lots of
sympathy and possibly some good advice. Shimon enters work much calmer than
he left his house, but he can't help thinking - Why can't my wife be more
like Shoshana?" - and already there is a small wedge in the marriage.  And
time goes on. Next time Shimon is upset about something (might not be his
wife, might be work or whatever), what is more natural than to talk it over
with Shoshana?  She has the time to listen to him, which his wife, busy with
the children, may well not do.  And then, over time, what would be more
natural than Shoshana tell him her woes?  Besides driving, he has time to
listen and to discuss, and so it would not be surprising if, over time,
feelings started to grow.  Nobody is actually doing anything wrong, but the
ultimate result could easily be the break-up of Shimon's marriage, or at
least a serious struggle to keep what would otherwise have been a fully
functional marriage on foot.  Thus I can really see why there is an inherent
danger in the proposed arrangement.

On the other hand, the psak does leave poor Shoshana out there in the
elements catching the bus.  It is not really chassid shoteh territory - she
is in no physical danger, just a bit of unpleasantness, but clearly it is
doing her a chessed to give her a lift, and to stamp on Shimon's better
inclinations towards chessed does seem very sad.

I wonder therefore if what is really bothering RLK is that there appears to
be no creativity in this psak.  Given that both Shimon and Shoshana live in
close proximity and both work in the same building a bus ride away, there
would seem to be a pretty high probability that there are others who live
nearby who also work in the same building.  How about Shimon advertising at
work for an additional workmate (or workmates) to be in on the car lift?
Not only will Shimon extend his chessed, but he will alleviate the original
problem.  Highly personal matters are far less likely to be discussed if
there are others in the car, particular male others, and the kind of
intimate feelings described above are far less likely to be kindled.  Now it
may be that this would not satisfy the posek in question, because he
requires more extreme forms of separation between men and women.  But I
think many who may be uncomfortable with the original idea of Shimon and
Shoshana travelling to and from work in Shimon's car with only each other
for company, would feel a lot more comfortable in this case, and feel that
the balance between the benefit of doing chessed and the risk of arousing
inappropriate feelings has shifted in favour the former over the latter.

>Michael Poppers 

Regards

Chana

On 6/24/2013 5:13 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 12:57:03PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> : I don't follow this logic. Let's suppose that at 10 AM, this machine
> : contained 92 ounces of non-kosher Slurpee...
>
> I don't either.
>
> Let me throw in another element of metzi'us that I didn't hear them
> mention, so I cannot assume they are relying upon.
>
> In order to keep the texture as desired, Slurpee machines have a corkscrew
> inside that keeps the liquid constantly in motion. So, no one part of
> the liquid just sits against the container wall for 24 hours.
>
> It also means any taaroves caused by not fully washing out the treif
> stuff before putting the official Slushee syrup in is really mixed.
>    

Unfortunately, I've cleaned this kind of machine, and a *lot* sticks to 
the walls.  So yes, it's quite possible that a bunch of it will sit 
against the container wall for 24 hours.  But the volume might be small 
enough for bittul to come into play.

Lisa

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 11:40:53PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote on Areivim:
: I don't understand the difference between not asserting the infallibility
: of Gedolei Haposkim in halachah, yet following their pesakim (indeed, as is
: obligatory) unless one is personally a higi'a lehora'ah; and not asserting
: the infallibility of the Gedolei Torah in determining the Torah's viewpoint
: on issues that are beyond pure halachah, yet following their determination
: of said viewpoint unless one is on a high enough level of proficiency and
: clarity in the Torah's hashkafic outlook to have the right to formulate
: one's personal opinion.

Halakhah is a legal process. Therefore, if we are told that legal
authority rests in our rabbanim, then we're obligated to follow the
pesaqim of our rabbanim. Their proclomations *define* what is right.

According to what R' Halbertal calls the Accumulative and Constitutive
views of halakhah of the rishonim, as opposed to the Retrieval position R'
Halbertal identifies with the geonim. I personally believe it was limited
to Sefer haQabbalah, and not other geonim such as the She'iltos. And even
ShQ might have been overstaing the point, because it's an anti-Qaraite
appologetic work. Already discussed here repeatedly, most recently last
Nov through Mar (!).)

Anyway, pesaq *makes* an opinion the law -- lo sosiru mikol asher yagidu
lekha. The poseiq's ruling, assuming he actually followed the rules of
pesaq and didn't make a mistake that goes beyond eilu va'eilu, is what
makes it the law. Once we leave the realm of law for that of truth,
we don't have this effect. So, a rav could err when saying this advice
would be helpful in a way that he can't when he says this position should
be followed lehalakhah.

I've been dividing the space in three ways, actually:

1- The moreh halakhah / poseiq must be followed, because the halakhah tells
you that's how you get halakhah. (Barring zil q'ri bei rav level mistakes.)

2- The moreh derekh gives you advice on a "mussar" level. E.g. he helps
someone decide which career choice would be spiritually healthier. Is
it better to have more time for learning, or to not require tzedaqah to
meet one's tuition obligations? Does one learn or spend more time with
a particular child?

Whenever the sho'el feels he has a good handle on the metzi'us and needs
help thinking out the spiritual side, he needs someone he can to turn to.

But this means that there aren't blanket answers that can be given without
knowing the sho'el quite well, and without his input. After all, if there
were a *rule* it would be a matter of halakhah!

3- Daas Torah appears to be used when even the question is about
the metzi'us, not the ruchnius. E.g. we know not to go to a country
where assimilation is inevitable. The question of whether America of
the inter-war period qualified isn't one of derekh, but of assessing
just how bad the odds were in the US. Similarly, the discussion about
whether to leave Europe for EY, or to protest for Refuseniks, or whether
behind-the-scenes politicing or public protest is the better way to
handle WoW or the draft.

Here I think there is simply no maqor. To quote the Tanya (Igeres
haQodesh, #22, tr. by RACohen founder of the RJJ Journal
<http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/cohen_DaatTorah.pdf#page=4>):
    My dear friend...."Remember the days of old, understand the years of
    every generation" -- has there ever been anything like this since
    the beginning of time?! Where, in all the books of the scholars of
    Israel, whether the earlier or later ones, have you ever seen such
    a custom instituted, to ask about a secular question, such as what
    to do in some mundane matter, even from the greatest of the early
    wise men of Israel, such as the tannaim and amoraim...but rather
    [people would turn to] actual prophets, such as there used to be,
    such as Shmuel the Seer, to whom Saul went to ask about the donkeys
    which his father had lost. But in truth, all matters relating to
    a person, other than something having to do with Torah or fear of
    heaven, are not apprehended other than through prophecy, and not by
    a wise man. As our rabbis have taught, "Everything is in the hands
    of heaven other than fear of heaven..."

    And when our rabbis zt"l said that people "derive benefit from him
    [from a talmid chacham] by advice and sound wisdom," this refers to
    words of Torah, which is called "sound wisdom".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Arei...@lists.aishdas.org
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On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 05:55:15PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: A friend of mine was mesader kiddushin recently. Right before the Chupah an
: Admor who was there suggested pushing off the chpah until aftil nightfall.
: He said that the day was the 9th of Tammuz when the walls were broken into
: during the first Temple. Even though today we fast on the 17th of Tammuz
: because of the second Temple nevertheless the 9th of Tammuz is not an
: appropriate day for a wedding.

The mishnah in question is Taanis 4:5 which lists the 5 disasters that
happened on 17 beTammuz (and those on 9 beAv). Both shasin have to deal
with Yirmiyahu -- 39:2 "besish'ah lachodesh havqe'ah ha'ir", or 49:6,7
"bachodehs harevii beshish'ah lachodesh... vatibaqa ha'ir..."

The idea RET repeated is in the Bavli (28b), said in the name of Rava.
But it's not so open-and-shut. Because the Y-mi (vilna 23a) says it's
a machloqes.

R' Tanchum bar Chanilai says "qilqul hacheshbonos".

RTBC points to Yechezqeil 26:1, where Yechezqeil introduces the nevu'ah as
being on "echad lachodesh", but there is not month that would qualify. It
would have to be after 9 beAv, since the destruction of Y-m was in the
past, but early enough for a courier to reach Tzor on 1 Elul. So somehow
Yechezqeil thought he was being told about the churban having happened
already on 1 Av.

R' Avunah Simna gets from "maqel shakeid ani ro'eh" that Bein haMetzrim
even for bayis rishon was 21 says long -- the amount of time an almond
takes to produce a fruit. According to both the one who says the first
churban was on the 9th and the one who says it's on the 17th.

Leshitaso, you end up with either saying that the dates on bayis rishon
were the 9th and RC Av -- and Yirmiyahu and Yechezqel had working
calendars. Or you follow RTBC that says that both made a calendar error
due to the confusion of churban bayis, and the 1st time Y-m's walls were
breached was also on the 17th and churban bayis rishon was on 9 beAv.

Rashbi states that R' Aqiva lists the 4 fasts in Zecharia as 17 beTamuz,
9 beAv, 3 Tishrei and 10 Teves. From which I conclude he too holds of
the calendar confusion theory, since Zecharia has to be referring to
fas woults established before churban bayis sheini.

(Rashbi is choleq on Tzom ha'Asiri, saying it's 5 beTeves. See 23b)

Also, I was wondering: wouldn't moving the fast day from the 9th to the
17th of Tammuz require a beis din gadol bechakhmah uveminyan compared to
Anshei Keneses haGedolah -- where AKhG included nevi'im, and no Sanhedrin
of tana'im could have?

(RET's email sat in my to-do box until the date finally pushed me to find
the Y-mi. Taanis 23a was back in Feb 2012... I was happy I remembered
the machloqes existed, never mind page number!)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

(I was going to change the subject line, but "current events" fits my new
topic too)

From Areivim:

> It is well known that many early psakim on electricity are wrong because
> the poskim had no idea what electricity really was.

Hast du nachtgeschaut*? I have also heard this repeated, but I would like
to see the psakim for myself inside. Does anyone have references?

*I speak Yiddish like a parrot: I have no idea what it means except from
context, and am probably saying it wrong
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Dear Areivim baAvodah,

We at AishDas are recruiting a few more members for our va'ad.

Since 2008, we have been running an "e-Va'ad" with tremendous success,
however over the years some of our members have moved on to other
callings. We are now recruiting some additional members. Our first
place to turn is inward to the Areivim/Avodah family.

The format for an e-Vaad that have been using is to meet on a telephone
conference call every other week.

The model which we found most successful is based on Sefer Alei Shur
from R' Shlomo Wolbe. The outline of each Vaad generally follows
this layout:
- Members first report on their progress working on the "homework" from the
  previous Vaad,
- then, if we agree we are ready to move on, a new Vaad in Alei Shur
  is presented by the (rotating) leader for that evening
- and finally, a new task is presented for the following weeks.

Support is offered for members who need assistance with the textual
skills necessary via a chavrusa system to help them prepare and become
acquainted with the slightly difficult hebrew of the sefer.

Between Vaadim, members interact via a chavrusa system and a Vaad-wide
email list for mutual feedback and support. There is tremendous room for
growth of the model and ourselves, and we work hard to help facilitate
that.

We are glad to report that after a number of years of running this Vaad,
the vaad members have agreed that it is overall it has been a successful
endeavor. Many of us have noticed improvement in our middos, and, in
many cases, so have our families.

If you are interested, please email eva...@aishdas.org and someone
from the vaad will get back to you..

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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