Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 118

Sun, 23 Jun 2013

• 1. Shelach Gems (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 2. Re: daas tora (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: daas tora (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: kesiva and tzovea (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Medicine on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 6. Summer Halachos By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: daas tora (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: Late night radio (Poppers, Michael)
• 9. 9th of Tamuz (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: A fathers pain at the brit milah (Micha Berger)
• 11. footnote kulahs (saul newman)
• 12. Re: footnote kulahs (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: daas tora (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: A fathers pain at the brit milah (Liron Kopinsky)
• 15. Re: A fathers pain at the brit milah (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: footnote kulahs (Ben Waxman)
• 17. Re: daas tora (Ben Waxman)
• 18. Re: daas tora (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: Kosher Agencies Deal with Annual Summer Issue: Slurpees (Kenneth Miller)

Rich Wolberg is right.
I did hijack his original post, but I don't think I started it :)

Having no faith in themselves, he argues, distorted the Meraglim's ability
to see what HKBH wanted from them.
I think no one can dispute this. It is the reality of day to day life. But,
does this then constitute a sin that deserves such a frightening
consequence? Are they and the Jews who followed them so broken that they
are unable to enter the land promised to AY&Y?

Further with regard to Richs music imagery; Playing what's on the music
sheet is just the beginning. There are so many factors that enter into it:
1) How well you play the piano? 2) What kind of piano are you playing? 3)
How do you interpret what's on the music sheet? 4) What is the rendition of
the piece? a) Is it played according to Hillel or according to Shammai? b)
do you use Rashi's interpretation or  Rambam's? 5) If you have 10 world
famous pianists playing the piece, can you tell the differences according to
who the pianist is?

Is this not the Rock that is smashed into a billion bits, each of which is
an authentic representation of HKBHs will?
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Why mandatory? It is an historical assessment and as such open to criticism.

OK so if you say that the historical assessment of gedolim can't be 
criticized, than yes, it is mandatory.  But why should I have to accept 
the CI's opinion on history any more than I have to accept his opinion 
on medicine or engineering or etc? So you're left right where you started.

Ben

On 6/21/2013 1:36 AM, saul newman wrote:
> r jonathan rosenblum  wrote----
>
> In an important letter, the Chazon Ish famously observed that the 
> division of the Torah into two separate parts -- one having to do with 
> /issur ve'heter/ and the other to do with guidance in other areas of 
> life -- with the determination of the /chachmei hador/ binding only in 
> the first section, is the ancient system of German Reform that led to 
> the near total assimilation of German Jewry
>
>
> ---is the conception of the CI mandatory?

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On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 06:37:13AM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Why mandatory? It is an historical assessment and as such open to criticism.

> OK so if you say that the historical assessment of gedolim can't be  
> criticized, than yes, it is mandatory....

I don't think the question was about the siefar dealing with German R
as a cautionary tale, but on the thesis of the quote.

RJR writes that the CI mandates listening to the chakhmei hador. (Again,
I want to see it inside; it doesn't fit my understanding of what I did see
in the CI's writings.) Not that they're right, or more likely to be right,
but an obligation, just like the obligation to seek out their pesaq.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:48:33PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: If one writes (on paper/parchment) only one letter why is one then not
: chayav for tzovea anyway?

A question I've been wondering about since the start of this thread....

Ink can crack or peel off parchment. It more rests above the skin than
penetrate within it. Would medium be considered tzoveia in any case?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:37:41AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: I remember as a kid being taught that the reason
: you don't take medicine on Shabbos (except for 
: something serious, which as we see is not that
: simple to define) is because Shabbos itself heals.

It's a cute thought, but the gemara is clear why. It's a gezeira lest
people grind the herbs, as was normally done immediately prior to usage.

There is no obligation to represent the healing power of
Shabbos. Especially if for most of us, other factors would get in the
way of actually benefiting from that power. And "ein somkhin al haneis"
might actually *prohibit* relying on such supernatural effects.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 From http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5755/korach.html

The coming of the summer-vacation season, when many people are away 
from their homes and usual surroundings, brings forth with it unique 
Halachic problems. Although it is difficult to envision the exact 
scenarios, we have chosen certain common situations which are likely 
to occur during the long summer season. A sampling:

See the above URL for more. YL


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So then the question (---is the conception of the CI mandatory?) simply 
becomes one of do we have to accept that gedolim have to be consulted on 
non-halachik questions.

Is it mandatory to accept this? For those who believe in some form of 
daas torah, than maybe yes.

Ben

On 6/21/2013 1:32 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I don't think the question was about the siefar dealing with German R 
> as a cautionary tale, but on the thesis of the quote. RJR writes that 
> the CI mandates listening to the chakhmei hador. (Again, I want to see 
> it inside; it doesn't fit my understanding of what I did see in the 
> CI's writings.) Not that they're right, or more likely to be right, 
> but an obligation, just like the obligation to seek out their pesaq. 
> :-)BBii! -Micha 

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In Avodah V31n117, RLK asked:
> "Answer: In absolutely no way should Shimon offer her a regular ride! This is a 'Chesed Shlili' and has to be avoided."
> Why is this bothering me so much? <
Because the proponent of such a position may be a chassid shoteh?

A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

A friend of mine was mesader kiddushin recently. Right before the Chupah an
Admor who was there suggested pushing off the chpah until aftil nightfall.
He said that the day was the 9th of Tammuz when the walls were broken into
during the first Temple. Even though today we fast on the 17th of Tammuz
because of the second Temple nevertheless the 9th of Tammuz is not an
appropriate day for a wedding.

Does anyone know of this minhag not to have weddings on the 9th of Tammuz?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 04:33:15PM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: In general, when we talk about tests of Avraham, we say that the last test,
: of Akeidat Yitzchak, was such a great test because it went against his
: entire being of an Ish Chesed to do what was being asked of him. To a
: lesser degree, isn't circumcising his entire household the same thing?

Well, milah is on the Rambam's list of 10 nisyonos (#6) that are all in
TSBK, the Bartenura's that includes medrashim (#7), Rashi (#8), and in
Avos deRabbi Nasan (nusach 1 has it as 33:2 but it's in both
see <http://books.google.co.il/books?id=UhRAAAAAYAAJ&;pg=PA94&lpg=PA9>),
it's even the 10th and final nisayon!

:-)BBii!
-Micha

http://torahmusings.com/2013/06/shabbos-guides/
one of the commentors  noted the phenomenon in english shabbos works ,  to
find  the kulot  buried in the extensive  footnotes [certainly true by teh
Artscroll shabbos sefarim ].

i suppose it's  to have the less knowledgable  take on more  chumrot, lest
they be overly meikel...
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On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 09:19:05AM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: http://torahmusings.com/2013/06/shabbos-guides/
: one of the commentors noted the phenomenon in english shabbos works , to
: find the kulot buried in the extensive footnotes [certainly true by teh
: Artscroll shabbos sefarim ].
:
: i suppose it's to have the less knowledgable take on more chumrot, lest
: they be overly meikel...

This comment is written with the assumption that people ought to do
what they read in books. Therefore the author should be telling the more
ignorant reader how to play safe. (Assuming the situation has a chumerah
that isn't a qulah in some other way, and "playing safe" has meaning.)

If I had my drothers, the body of the text would let the reader know
there are multiple opinions. So that people will know when the question
is open, and to CYLOR. A person should have a poseiq, not a popularist
guide collecting chumeros for them.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 04:37:56PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> So then the question (---is the conception of the CI mandatory?) simply  
> becomes one of do we have to accept that gedolim have to be consulted on  
> non-halachik questions.

> Is it mandatory to accept this? For those who believe in some form of  
> daas torah, than maybe yes.

The question of whether or not one is obligated to consult rabbanim
for non-halachic questions is itself a halachic pesaq. So it's just a
question of whether you and your own poseiq hold like this purported
position of the CI or not.

Unlike your prior version of the question, making a question of daas
Torah as to whether one must follow daas Torah, this would make it a
question of halakhah whether or not to do so. It lacks the circularity
you tried to impose on the original.

Also, you ignore a third ground. There are desiderata in the Torah that
cannot be formulated as black-letter halakhah. One could reject daas
Torah and still believe that one is obligated to have a moreh derekh.
(I hope one could; this one does.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 04:33:15PM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> : In general, when we talk about tests of Avraham, we say that the last
> test,
> : of Akeidat Yitzchak, was such a great test because it went against his
> : entire being of an Ish Chesed to do what was being asked of him. To a
> : lesser degree, isn't circumcising his entire household the same thing?
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>  Well, milah is on the Rambam's list of 10 nisyonos (#6) that are all in
> TSBK, the Bartenura's that includes medrashim (#7), Rashi (#8), and in
> Avos deRabbi Nasan (nusach 1 has it as 33:2 but it's in both
> see <http://books.google.co.il/books?id=UhRAAAAAYAAJ&;pg=PA94&lpg=PA9>),
> it's even the 10th and final nisayon!
>

Indeed, but isn't that thought of as being Avraham circumcising himself,
and not the "lack of compassion" that he must have shown in circumcising
the entire household?

Shavuah Tov,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 08:59:47PM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
:> Well, milah is on the Rambam's list of 10 nisyonos (#6) that are all in
:> TSBK, the Bartenura's that includes medrashim (#7), Rashi (#8), and in
:> Avos deRabbi Nasan (nusach 1 has it as 33:2 but it's in both
:> see <http://books.google.co.il/books?id=UhRAAAAAYAAJ&;pg=PA94&lpg=PA9>),
:> it's even the 10th and final nisayon!

: Indeed, but isn't that thought of as being Avraham circumcising himself,
: and not the "lack of compassion" that he must have shown in circumcising
: the entire household?

Actually, see AdRN nusach 2.

I think they say more about it running against what he's been teaching
than the morality directly.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

IMO that is also true about Shmirat Shabbat (Hebrew). In fact one of my 
rabbanim said that the qulot in the footnotes are there for two reasons:

1) Intellectual honesty
2) Cases of bediavad.

Ben

On 6/21/2013 7:19 PM, saul newman wrote:
> http://torahmusings.com/2013/06/shabbos-guides/
> one of the commentors  noted the phenomenon in english shabbos works , 
>  to find  the kulot  buried in the extensive  footnotes [certainly 
> true by teh Artscroll shabbos sefarim ].
>
> i suppose it's  to have the less knowledgable  take on more  chumrot, 
> lest they be overly meikel...

The original quote was about chachmei hador, not one's moreh derech.

Ben

On 6/21/2013 9:59 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Also, you ignore a third ground. There are desiderata in the Torah 
> that cannot be formulated as black-letter halakhah. One could reject 
> daas Torah and still believe that one is obligated to have a moreh 
> derekh. (I hope one could; this one does.) :-)BBii! -Micha 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 11:16:39PM +0300, Ben Waxman wrote:
> The original quote was about chachmei hador, not one's moreh derech.

You found the orignal quote in the CI? I was betting RJR misunderstood
him, as it doesn't fit my understanding of Emunah uBitachon pereq 3 by
ignoring the CI's discussion of mussar in particular.

And if he is paraphrasing EuB ch 3, neither I nor my search engine find
mention of "chakhmei hador" or "gedolei hador". No mention of "dor"
in the context of leadership among the 28 pages in the sefer that had
hits altogether.

In any case, since I question whether RJR accurately captured the CI,
pointing to his article without looking through /his/ sources, won't do
it for me.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot

R' Akiva Blum asked:

> This question was on the machines. If a different flavor WAS
> in the machine (for more than 24 hours), but isn't now, the
> machine is still treif. The new kosher syrup absorbs the issur
> after 24 hours.

R' Micha quoted the CRC:

> ... the barrel of the machines holds 92 ounces of finished
> Slurpee product, and 7-Eleven's top-selling Slurpee cup is
> 22 ounces, which means that approximately 4.5 large cups of
> Slurpee are held in the machines. Obviously, the Slurpees in
> the machines are replaced constantly. Consequently, the cRc
> can safely and confidently announce that there are no
> problems with the Slurpee machines.

I don't follow this logic. Let's suppose that at 10 AM, this machine
contained 92 ounces of non-kosher Slurpee. By 3 PM, it is emptying out and
retains only 10 ounces of it at the bottom, and the manager refills it. At
8 PM, there are 20 ounces left, meaning that they've sold the last 10
ounces of what was there in the morning, and also 62 ounces of what was
added in the afternoon. So the manager refills it, and some is sold
overnight as well.

Here's my question: What is the status 10 AM the next morning? On the one
hand, no single drop of the original Slurpee stayed in the machine for a
full 24 hours. But on the other hand, the machine (or at least, the part of
the machine near its exit spout) was in constant contact with non-kosher
Slurpee of the same flavor for the full 24 hours. Does this situation treif
up the machine or not? My guess is that it indeed would make it treif. My
logic is that if stirring the liquid doesn't make a difference (so that
different molecules come into contact with different part of the container)
then replacing the liquid should also not make a difference.

(But all the above concerns the status of the machine itself. If one asks
about changing that machine to contain a *kosher* flavor, and the whether
or not one needs to worry about whether the old flavor has contaminated the
new one (either in taam or mamash), that's a different question.)

Akiva Miller
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