Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 100

Fri, 24 May 2013

• 1. Reading Secular Books on Shabbos and Yom tov (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Menus and Lists on Shabbos and Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: kashrut update (Ben Waxman)
• 4. Re: kashrut update (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: electricity on Shabbos - R. Asher Weiss (Rich, Joel)
• 6. electricity on shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 7. non-Jewish housekeeper (M Cohen)
• 8. Re: Unusual Question (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: 50 (Arie Folger)
• 10. Reading "Frum" Newspapers On Shabbos and Yom Tov (with footnotes included) (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Reform Practice in Orthodox Shuls (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Unusual Question (Zev Sero)
• 13. sheva berachot (Eli Turkel)
• 14. unusual question (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Circling the Chasan at a Wedding (Micha Berger)

From  http://tinyurl.com/owf5q5l

QUESTION: Is it permitted to read secular books on Shabbos [and Yom Tov]?

DISCUSSION: It depends on the type of book one wishes to read:(18)

Biographies of gedolei Yisrael or Orthodox community leaders, Jewish 
story books that serve to strengthen one's yira'as shamayim, emunas 
chachamim or middos tovos are permitted, including works of fiction 
(novels and mysteries) which are authored by G-d fearing Jews and are 
written for these purposes.

Books [or encyclopedias] on science, math, medicine, geography, 
astronomy and architecture are permitted,(19) except if one is 
reading them for the sake of his business or profession,(20) or only 
because he needs to study for a test. (21)

Cookbooks should be avoided.(22)

Secular books which do not contain halachically objectionable 
material, but were not written by G-d fearing Jews for the purpose of 
strengthening one's yira'as shamayim, emunas chachamim or middos 
tovos, should not be read on Shabbos. (23) We do not, however, object 
to women, children or those who are not engaged in the study of Torah 
reading books of this nature on Shabbos.(24) Books about personal or 
public tragedies, or holocaust stories that sadden a person and 
detract from his oneg Shabbos - may not be read on Shabbos.(25) Any 
written work that may have a bearing on the reader's finances is 
forbidden to be read on Shabbos.


18 Although this discussion follows the same basic principles quoted 
earlier concerning newspapers, there are several reasons why there is 
greater leniency regarding the reading of books than of newspapers: 
1) Books do not contain advertisements or financial news; 2) The 
Rabbinic ban against reading non-business related items, which became 
necessary due to the confusion between different type of documents, 
may not apply to books since there is a clear distinction between 
unbound business documents and bound books; see Pischei She'arim on 
Sha'arei Efrayim 10:33.

19 Mishnah Berurah 307:65 and 308:164.

20 Shulchan Shelomo 307:25.

21 See Shemiras Shabbos K'hilchasah 28, note 206, where Harav S.Z. 
Auerbach remains undecided on this issue.

22 Harav M. Feinstein and Harav N. Karelitz quoted in Ayil Meshulash, 
pg. 41. Others are more leninet; see Shemiras Shabbos K'hilchasah 29, 
note 116 and Avnei Yashfei 1:76.

23 O.C. 307:16.

24 Ruling of Harav N. Karelitz (quoted in Ayil Meshulash on Shitrei 
Hedyotos, pg. 209, and in Menuchah Shleimah, 2).

25 Mishnah Berurah 307:3; Ketzos ha-Shulchan 107:43.

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 From http://tinyurl.com/owf5q5l

QUESTION: Before Shabbos [or Yom Tov] a hostess may prepare a menu, a 
guest list or a seating plan in order to remember which foods to 
serve, how to seat the guests, etc. Is it permitted to use such lists 
on Shabbos?

DISCUSSION: In general, it is Rabbinically forbidden to read all 
kinds of documents or lists on Shabbos. Initially, the basic 
prohibition included only business-related documents such as 
contracts and invoices; informal household "documents" such as a 
guest list or a menu were permitted. Eventually, though, Chazal 
determined that people were blurring the distinction between business 
and non-business documents and allowing themselves to read business 
documents on Shabbos. Chazal were forced, therefore, to expand the 
original edict and prohibit the reading of non-business-related 
"documents" as well.(3) In addition, Chazal were aware that 
last-minute changes are often made in menus or guest lists, and they 
were concerned that one might inadvertently erase or alter the list 
as he reviews it on Shabbos. Thus they banned reading all types of 
lists and menus on Shabbos. It follows, therefore, that hostesses 
should not rely on these type of lists on Shabbos [and Yom Tov].(4)

Still, if a woman feels that serving family or guests on Shabbos 
without such lists will cause her anxiety or distress, she may 
prepare and read a menu or a guest list,(5) but only in the following manner:

Ask another household member, e.g., her husband or daughter, to read 
the menu or list to her.(6) Alternatively, another household member 
should read the menu or guest list along with her.(7)

She should not read the list aloud or even mouth the words; she 
should merely scan it with her eyes.(8)

3 Mishnah Berurah 307:52.

4 Mishnah Berurah 307:47.

5 There are several grounds for leniency in this case: 1) A Shabbos 
meal can be considered a seudas mitzvah, in which case the edict 
against reading household documents is suspended. 2) Avoiding a 
stressful situation is considered tzarchei ha-guf, in which case the 
edict against reading household documents is also suspended.

6 Since we are only concerned that the person in charge of the meals 
- in this case, the hostess - may alter or erase the menu or list.

7 When two or more people read the list together, the likelihood that 
both will forget that it is Shabbos is virtually nil; based on O.C. 
275:2. See Shulchan Shelomo 307:16.

8 Based on Mishnah Berurah 307:54; see Shulchan Shelomo, addendum to 
vol. 1, pg. 66.

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If one of the kids is online a lot (something very common today), s/he 
could install some sort of "Nanny Net" camera in a few critical places.  
That would allow constant surveillance (or however much is needed).

Ben

On 5/24/2013 12:50 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> The above "solutions" are pretty impossible. I have no ideea what it 
> means to "lock up the kitchen" in most apartments. Certainly in my 
> home in cant be done.
> I am also not sure what it means by occasionally entering the house" . 
> If the elderly person doesnt have family nearby this again is not very 
> practical (what does occasionally mean)
>

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A nanny service would help to make sure the help is not treifing up the
place
I know R Elyashiv paskened that a video camera is good for chalav yisrael

It wouldnrt help for bishul akum

Eli Turkel


On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:

>  If one of the kids is online a lot (something very common today), s/he
> could install some sort of "Nanny Net" camera in a few critical places.
> That would allow constant surveillance (or however much is needed).
>
> Ben
>
>
> On 5/24/2013 12:50 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
>
> The above "solutions" are pretty impossible. I have no ideea what it means
> to "lock up the kitchen" in most apartments. Certainly in my home in cant
> be done.
> I am also not sure what it means by occasionally entering the house" . If
> the elderly person doesnt have family nearby this again is not very
> practical (what does occasionally mean)
>
>
>


-- 
Eli Turkel
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But that linguistic link as evidence of a deeper truth is not
what RAW appears to be trying to establish here, but rather that the very
existence of an action that can be considered chashuv, which then allows,
not just Rabbi Yochanan and Rabbi Shimon to be mechadesh and metaken such an
action as makeh b'patish d'orisa, but the chachamim today would seem also to
have that power.  Those are two pretty huge leaps, on relatively little
source material.

RAW therefore concludes that that lighting LED's on shabbas constitutes the
issur of makeh b'patish d'orisa.

-------
What puzzles me a bit about this discussion about LEDs is why RAW (and
others) does not try and include them in the definition of eish?  

Regards

Chana

_______________________________________________
Nice summary of R' Weiss's libi omer li approach that I tried to convey in
the makeh bpatish case.  I would guess the reason for not defining under
eish could be at least twofold - the (to me ) lesser reason that while one
could divorce eish from heat, if one looked back in time, the main element
of eish was the production of heat for cooking vs. light at night (but I
suppose one could go either way).  IMHO the major reason is that R' Weiss
would use this definition of makeh bpatish  in other cases that will come
up and thus prefers the concept of masruha to be broad rather than saying
oh it's really eish.
Just my thoughts
KT
Joel Rich
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<<: But d'rabbanan's are very difficult. We don't really have the
: power to institute new d'rabbanans today...

I think RSZA's shitah boils down to saying that we do.>>

I find that RSZA was not consistent on this question.
As discussed before he felt that all cakes were assur on Pesach because
that was
the idea behind kitniyot.

OTOH he held (originally) that turning off a light on shabbat is permitted.
Turning on
the light is starting a fire but turning it off is only stopping further
elctricity from coming
and it would be loke moving the coals further away which is not
extinguishing..
When R. Halperin's father asked RSZA that it would cause confusion the
answer was that just like a poske cant allow the forbidden so a posek cant
forbid the allowed.
Later he changed and said that possibly it is more like removing the oil
from a lamp
which is prohibited.

Also RSZA objected to defining electricity as molid on the grounds that one
cant extend molid to things that dont appear in the gemara and gave various
examples of things that look like moild but we dont prohibit them

-- 
Eli Turkel
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RET writes .. Another major problem for which I have no answer (not
mentioned) is bishul
akum. If an elderly gentleman is incapacitate it is not reasonable for him
to
light the oven every time something is cooked.

The 2 solutions are to cook with a stove with pilot light, 
or that cooking be done in microwave

(microwave is a machlokes, R Miller of Toronto is makil)

Mordechai cohen

Isn't that essentially what a beit ha-pras is?

Lisa


On 5/24/2013 7:02 AM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> I recently went to Ground Zero with a group of colleagues.
> The question came up regarding a kohen being allowed there.
> Obviously, there were Jewish people killed during 911.
> Consequently, there are remains in the area.
> Would a kohen be forbidden to go to Ground Zero?
>    

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On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:20 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> But I see in the [Qorban haEdah's] wording "debeshe'ar shenei shavua'
> airi qera" his belief that
>     debesher'ar shenei hashavua -- regardless of which of the years of
>         the shemitah cycle yovel falls out on (other than shemittah itself)
>     airi qera -- the pasuq says he leaves before a full 6 years
> Even though the QhE happens to give the oft-cited case of yovel on
> shemittah+1.
>
> Kindly map your impression to the words, because I'm still missing how
> it fits.

I take my clue from the third line of the Qh'E on the amud, where he
stresses that Yovel is year one and after a mere five years additional
years, those being of servitude, the servant will be free on Shemitta. So
while I agree that you can read it as being a mere instance ofyovel being
one of the years preceding a shemitta, nonetheless, I find that him using
only the case of yovel being year 1, rather than years 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, to
be significant, as he gives not the slightest indication in his own words
(as opposed to paraphrasing the Talmud, which he does) where you'd glean
from that yovel can happen on any other year.

So it rather seems that he is not using yovel = year 1 as an example, but
rather as the only possible instance.

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Schnellkurs im jdischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
* Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
* Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
* Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
* Beschneidungslerntag ? Schluworte (Multimedia)
* Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
* Welche Bnde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
* Rckblick Gedenkfeier Frstenfeldbruck

I inadvertently left out the footnotes when I sent this out earlier.
They are included in this message. YL

 From http://tinyurl.com/owf5q5l

...

10 Mishnah Berurah 307:3; Ketzos ha-Shulchan 107:43.

11 See Avnei Yashfei 1:76-3, quoting Harav S.Z. Auerbach; Az Nidberu 9:7.

12 Many poskim, based on O.C. 307:16. See Minchas Shabbos 90:22.

13 See Magen Avraham 301:4 and Peri Megadim; Ya'avatz 1:162; Kalkeles
Shabbos 33; Tehillah l'David 301:1; Da'as Torah 307:15.

14 Sha'ar ha-Tziyun 301:7.

15 Mishnah Berurah 307:63.

16 See Da'as Torah 307:16, Shemiras Shabbos K'hilchasah 29:46. See also
Igros Moshe O.C. 5:22-3 who writes that business newspapers should not
be read.

17 Ayil Meshulash on Shitrei Hedyotos, pg. 79, 83 and 210, and in Menuchah
Shleimah, 2.

At 10:44 AM 5/24/2013, R. Ben Waxman wrote:

>In a shul which davens early, for example during the summer, there won't
>be any problem of dancing on Shabbat. The people could dance Sleeping
>Beauty and the only issue will be one of decorum.

Very true, and this is fine with me at the "early" minyan that I 
daven at on Fridays in after Pesach.

Truth be told,  I do not see any dancing,  but there are those who 
clap at  a certain point.  Again this is fine at the early 
minyan,  but I have problems with it during the minyan that begins a 
little before shkia all year round.


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On 24/05/2013 8:02 AM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> I recently went to Ground Zero with a group of colleagues.
> The question came up regarding a kohen being allowed there.
> Obviously, there were Jewish people killed during 911.
> Consequently, there are remains in the area.
> Would a kohen be forbidden to go to Ground Zero?

Even assuming that kohanim are not allowed to enter a "beis hapras" (whose
tum'ah is only mid'rabanan), it seems to me that the area has been combed
through much more thoroughly than any BhP would have been in Chazal's day,
so it's tahor.  Indeed, since all of chu"l has a status equivalent to BhP,
a better shayla would be whether a cohen who has entered Ground Zero may
leave it!

See http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/a110.htm#14

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

< If one of the Brachos was temporarily skipped by mistake, it should be
recited despite the fact that it will not be in the proper order.>

<<Although in general this is true, there is one possible exception: if the
omitted b'racha was "Yotzeir Ha'adam," according to many it should not be
recited after the following b'racha, since the latter contains every word
of the skippd b'racha -- and since safeik b'rachos l'hakeil, the accepted
psak is not to say it if it was accidentally omitted.  EMT>>

I was once at a wedding where Yotzeir Ha'adam was forgotten under the chupa.
A bunch a rabbis huddled under the chupa to decide what to do (right after
the next bracha).
In the end they did say Yotzeir Ha'adam out of order, but I recall that it
was controversial.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<I recently went to Ground Zero with a group of colleagues.
The question came up regarding a kohen being allowed there.
Obviously, there were Jewish people killed during 911.
Consequently, there are remains in the area.
Would a kohen be forbidden to go to Ground Zero?>>

What is the question. I assume he isnt touching any bones and it isnt a
cemetry.
Perhaps ohel?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Question for those who oppose roite bindelach (red string bracelets) on
the assumption that they decend from the same derekh Emori as the Indian
practice of men wearing a red string to stay safe from all evil. (Although
according to my Hindu co workers circa 2003 or so when I raised the topic,
to their practice the essence is that when put on, it tied the name of
a god onto the wrist.)

Someone mentioned at work today a TV show in which a Hindu wedding
revolved around (pun intended) the bride walking around the groom 7 times.
So, I looked it up. According to wikipedia's entry on Hindu Wedding:
    By law and tradition no Hindu marriage is deemed complete unless in
    the presence of the Sacred Fire seven encirclements have been made
    around it by the bride and the groom together. (In many South Indian
    Hindu marriages these are not required.)

Would you now make a similar judgment on the minhag of a kallah walking
around the chasan?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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