Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 74

Tue, 23 Apr 2013

• 1. infinity (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Ger Toshav on Shabbos (was: Israel Torah Community) (Doron Beckerman)
• 3. Re: Pesach Sheni (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. infinity (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Queen Cleopatra (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 6. Re: Pesach Sheni (Akiva Blum)
• 7. Re: Queen Cleopatra (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: Queen Cleopatra (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 9. V'el bnei yisrael tomar (Liron Kopinsky)
• 10. Re: Queen Cleopatra (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Queen Cleopatra (Lisa Liel)
• 12. When Lag B'Omer Falls on Sunday (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Queen Cleopatra (Micha Berger)
• 14. ben ish chai psak (saul newman)

<<I always wonder about such assumptions and their cliff like nature. Is
this another instance where we are trying to guess what chazal might have
said about something they might not have thought about.  Is it a plumb line
or earth center radius definition?  Was bokea ad harakia meant literally or
figuratively meaning anywhere humans could reach then? Imagine a vertical
cliff next to a graveyard as an example.>>

Whether it is literal or not is the discussion I am having with Zev. I
claim  that statements of chazal do not pertain to the very large or very
small as they did not think in those terms. We all agree that microscopic
items are not considered by halacha. Therefore I (with many others) claim
that individual molecules of chametz are not subsumed under Mashehu.

I further claim (as does Rabbi Lebowitz) that ad le-akaia does not mean
infinity. Rabbi Lebowitz states it means until the clouds (perhaps that is
his translation of rakia) while I would say it means as far as a normal
person can see. One can see a plane landing even at several thousand feet
one cannot see a plane in mid-flight at 30,000 feet. In this case a cliff
over a graveyard (assuming an overhang) would be tameh for any normal size
cliff.
Rabbi Lebowitz also brought the opinion of RHS that it had to be nearby
which would exclude cliffs and certainly airplanes.
Also in the past I have argued with Zev whether the moon is a living body,
based on the Rambam.

On a separate issue I recently saw an article that claims that we have to
understand everything in terms of how chazal understood science and not
translate gemara in terms of modern science. The article was talking about
the examining a possible dead person until the chest. The claim is that
chazal did not associate the heart with the circulatory system (only
discovered a few hundred years ago). Rashi clearly connects the lungs with
the heart which is an impossibility to have any direct connection between
the air system and the blood system..

Similarly most of Chazal seem to assume a flat earth with the moon and sun
circling above and below this flat surface, going through windows in the
"rakia", . Hence ad harakia would be up until this surface which has no
meaning in modern science.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Lemaaseh, we pasken that a Ger Toshav who is one's Eved must be restrained
from any melachah, and a Ger Toshav who is not one's Eved must not be
instructed to do melachah on behalf of a Jew. This is all Assur
Mide'oraisa. See Shulchan Aruch OC 304:1 with Mishnah Berurah note 1.

Thus, there are no hetterim of shvus d'amirah lenochri or shvus dishvus on
account of their being (lenient) derabbanans, but once you get around the
amirah (i.e., you do it shelo bederech tzivui), the halachos are the same.

[The Issur hanaah mimaaseh nochri is the same derabbanan with the same
rules (Mishnah Berurah note 14 ad loc.)]
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Cantor Wolberg asked:
> There are those who have the minhag to eat matzah on Pesach
> Sheni (this coming Wed). My question is: Must it be Kosher
> L'Pesach matzo?

R' Zev Sero answered:
> If it isn't, then in what sense is it matzoh?

Excellent answer! But I'd like to rephrase the question: Must it be shmurah matza, or does ordinary pesach matza suffice?

My guess: This matza represents the Korban Pesach, and therefore it sounds
reasonable to me that it would follow the rules of the afikoman, which also
represents the Korban Pesach.

Followup question: WHEN is this matzah to be eaten? I can think of three possible answers:

1) It is to be eaten specifically on the night following the 14th, because that's when the Korban Pesach Sheni was eaten.

2) It is to be eaten specifically on the afternoon of the 14th, because that's when the Korban Pesach Sheni was slaughtered.

3) It may be eaten anything during the day of the 14th, because everywhere
I've ever seen this minhag mentioned, it is phrase exactly as Cantor
Wolberg put it: "the minhag to eat matzah on Pesach Sheni",  without any
additional details.

However, I found two sources on line, both of which mention gedolim who
followed #1 or #3. I have not seen any reference to eating this matzah
specifically on the afternoon of the 14th.
http://www.torahlab.org/doitright/pesach_sheini/
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/letters-rebbe-3/100.htm

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
How to Sleep Like a Rock
Obey this one natural trick to fall asleep and stay asleep all night.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5173e7033790b670258aest04vuc

I wish to point out that in many other areas poskim did not take
phraseology literally. Perhaps the best case is safek pikuach nefesh on
shhabat. The halacha states that even a remote pikuach nefesh overrides
shabbat. The question arises what does the word "remote" mean. If one takes
it literally then almost everything is allowed on shabbat.
Thus, R. Elyashiv (heard from R. Zilberstein) defines it as more than
1/10,000.
OTOH RSZA defines but what the ordinary person would take into account in
daily life.
None of these poskim take the phrase literally

RSZA also does not account for sparks in motors on shabbat since these
sparks are not seen and dont have heat that can be felt. Hence, even though
the gemara does not give a minimum shiur to "hav-arah" nevertheless
something too meaningless doesnt count.

We have already brought many times that microscopic material is not
accounted for by halacha even though it is not mentioned by chazal.
Anything outside the normal perception of humans is ignored by halacha.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Near the end of the page of Mesechet Sanheidrin 90b it says "Queen Cleopatra
questioned Rabbi Meir."

 

Obviously that could never have happened. Queen Cleopatra VII committed
suicide in 30BCE, her children and relatives were executed, the Ptolemy
dynasty came to an end, and Egypt would have no more kings and queens, but
would have a similar governorship by Rome as was in Israel.

 

Rabbi Steinsaltz in his text, as well as "Rabbi Artscroll" remark "Cleopatra
was the name of a long line of Egyptian queens" (which is correct) "The one
mentioned here is *not* the one commonly known." (which cannot be correct)

 

The implication is that this was a later Queen Cleopatra in Egypt. But there
was none, and neither source cites where they got that idea from.

 

I found another source (W.Bacher in the JQR, I., 336)  that turned the
Aramaic for "Queen Cleopatra" into "Patriarch of the Cutheans" as an
anagram. But in order to do that, he needs to ignore the mem and lameds in
the original, and toss in a dalet and an extra yud for it to work, which
doesn't have a satisfying answer to me. He tries to force MNidrash Rabbah
5:11 where a Cuthean is asking R' Meir if the dead will come back to life in
secret or in public with the Cleopatra question if the dead will come back
to life dressed or naked, and does the forced anagram.

 

Granted, there are other incidents in the Gemara, such as the story of Rabbi
Yochanan Zakkai speaking to Vespasian and claiming he is the new Emperor and
in that instant, a messenger came to declare it so. It could not have
happened based on the recorded events at that time, and it is unlikely that
they ever spoke. Obviously, there was something trying to be described in
that case, which I will forego speaking of right now.

 

What I am wondering is, has anyone else given this meeting with Cleopatra
and Rabbi Meir any thought, given that they never could have met? And has
anyone the source that Rabbi Stensaltz and others use to provide that claim
that there was a Queen Cleopatra 100 years after there was no longer an
Egyptian empire?

 

Thanks.

 

Eliyahu Grossman

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On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Kenneth Miller <kennethgmil...@juno.com>wrote:

>
>
> Followup question: WHEN is this matzah to be eaten? I can think of three
> possible answers:
>
> 1) It is to be eaten specifically on the night following the 14th, because
> that's when the Korban Pesach Sheni was eaten.
>
> 2) It is to be eaten specifically on the afternoon of the 14th, because
> that's when the Korban Pesach Sheni was slaughtered.
>
> 3) It may be eaten anything during the day of the 14th, because everywhere
> I've ever seen this minhag mentioned, it is phrase exactly as Cantor
> Wolberg put it: "the minhag to eat matzah on Pesach Sheni",  without any
> additional details


Since overall this minhag makes little sense, surely the answer is -
whatever your minhag is. You cannot discover the correct method, only the
methos that you practice. And if you don't practice it, then it ain't your
minhag.

Akiva
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On 4/22/2013 4:39 AM, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
> Granted, there are other incidents in the Gemara, such as the story of 
> Rabbi Yochanan Zakkai speaking to Vespasian and claiming he is the new 
> Emperor and in that instant, a messenger came to declare it so. It 
> could not have happened based on the recorded events at that time, and 
> it is unlikely that they ever spoke. Obviously, there was something 
> trying to be described in that case, which I will forego speaking of 
> right now.

I don't know the answer to this, but I'm going to look into it now.  
However, I'm curious about what you're alluding to by "which I will 
forego speaking of right now."

Lisa

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"Of which I will forgo" was because it would take a lot of time to explain,
and sometimes my longer posts bounce back.

 

But to be brief, Vespasian hated the Jewish rebels and saw himself as the
possible non-Jewish messiah, and this derangement was promoted by Josephus.
When the Emperor died, the throne went up for grabs, so we know that just
prior to 68BCE, he defeated rebels in Jordan and made his way to Alexandria,
where he remained until after the fall of the Temple, and it was there that
he was declared Emperor by Rome, but still remained for almost 2 years
before returning to Rome. When he returned, he came by way of Jerusalem
year or so after the fall of the temple, he sought the death of those who
escaped, such as Rabban Gamliel, who had left with Rabbi Yochanan ben
Zakkai, because of his "ben David" status. This remained in effect until
Vespasian's death, and Rabban Gamliel was in hiding during those
intermediate years.

 

So the idea that Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai had visited Vespasian outside of
the walls of Jerusalem and declared him as Emperor which was immediately
reported by a messenger, doesn't work as history. The writer of that story
could have meant Titus, who was there at the time, but eliminate that he was
the new Emperor, which, by the way, is also a story that Josephus claims
that he used to get into the good graces of Vespasian himself! In short, my
thought is that Vespasian was used as a literary device to show that, while
he hated the Jews, his passion for power was greater. There could be other
reasons for that as well, and I have jotted those ideas some time ago.

 

This brief version doesn't do it justice, but now you see why I omitted it
in the first place.

 

Anyhow, I have had additional thoughts as to why the literary device of
"Cleopatra" was used, which I explain a bit further at:
http://eweirdness.blogspot.co.il/

 

All the best,

 

Eliyahu Grossman

 

From: Lisa Liel [mailto:l...@starways.net] 
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:09 PM
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
Cc: Eliyahu Grossman
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Queen Cleopatra

 

On 4/22/2013 4:39 AM, Eliyahu Grossman wrote: 

Granted, there are other incidents in the Gemara, such as the story of Rabbi
Yochanan Zakkai speaking to Vespasian and claiming he is the new Emperor and
in that instant, a messenger came to declare it so. It could not have
happened based on the recorded events at that time, and it is unlikely that
they ever spoke. Obviously, there was something trying to be described in
that case, which I will forego speaking of right now.


I don't know the answer to this, but I'm going to look into it now.
However, I'm curious about what you're alluding to by "which I will forego
speaking of right now."

Lisa

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In general, we say that "amira" is a soft way of saying something, and
"haggada" is a more harsh way of speaking - as in "ko tomar l'veit yaakov,
v'tageid livnei yisrael."

In Parshat Kedoshim (beginning of Perek 20), right before it lists the
punishments for all of the issurim mentioned previously, it says "Vayedaber
Hashem el moshe leimor: V'el bnei yisrael tomar".

Why is the word "Tomar" used here, when it seems that the language and
descriptions of all the punishments is extremely harsh?

Kol Tuv,
Liron

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 12:39:27PM +0300, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
: Near the end of the page of Mesechet Sanheidrin 90b it says "Queen Cleopatra
: questioned Rabbi Meir."

I thought Cleapatra was simply shorthand for "Egyptian queen who shared
power".

As you noted, there were a lot of Cleopatras; it would be likely to become
nearly a title.

Chazal used "David" as a title for one of his descendents on occasion.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 4/22/2013 9:52 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 12:39:27PM +0300, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
> : Near the end of the page of Mesechet Sanheidrin 90b it says "Queen Cleopatra
> : questioned Rabbi Meir."
>
> I thought Cleapatra was simply shorthand for "Egyptian queen who shared
> power".
>    

But given that there were no Egyptian monarchs at all at the time Rabbi 
Meir lived, that doesn't help.

> As you noted, there were a lot of Cleopatras; it would be likely to become
> nearly a title.
>    
Only for a monarch.  And there weren't any.

Lisa

There is a shiur on this topic by Rabbi Mordechai Willig at 
http://tinyurl.com/ckxsyhy

YL

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 10:54:10PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> I thought Cleapatra was simply shorthand for "Egyptian queen who shared
>> power".

> But given that there were no Egyptian monarchs at all at the time Rabbi  
> Meir lived, that doesn't help.

There were governors, no? If one had a local wife, she might fit the bill.

But obviously this medrash wasn't intended historically; so there isn't
that much reason for my playing this game. My point was more to raise the
issue of names-as-titles than understanding this particular discussion
between R' Meir and Cleopatra.

BTW, was the final Cleopatra known for anything other than her supposed
beauty or beautiful voice which she allegedly used to maniplate men? Can
we find something about Cleopatra VII that makes her a good foil,
standing in contrast to R' Meir?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 28th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Netzach: What role does
Fax: (270) 514-1507      domination or taking control play in building brotherhood?

*Question:* What happens when there is only one Cohen in town and he
happens to be a Shabbat violator, can he be called up to the Torah? And
what happens if in this small town there is only one Levi and he is a pimp,
can he be called up to the Torah for an aliya?

*R. Joseph qualifies the question:* it wasn?t stated if this is a pimp who
practices exclusively among ?goyim? or among Jews as well. ?I will relate
to both cases.? In the first case, if the clientele is non-Jewish the
bottom line is that it is possible to honor the pimp. But in the second
case, (if Jews are involved) if he brings a non-Jewish prostitute to Jews
or Jewish women to non-Jews, he cannot be called up to the Torah.

But it is not easy to deny a Levi his honors and so R. Joseph in his final
judgment writes that despite the fact that the profession of pimping is
frowned upon, if it is just alleged that he deals in prostitution with
Jews, he can still be honored
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