Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 52

Thu, 28 Mar 2013

• 1. Re: kitniyot & size of kezayit weight or volume (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Kitnyios [and Yoshon and chumros] (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Kitnyios [and Yoshon and chumros] (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Rice and Corn May be Eaten for the Entire Day of Erev Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Vidui Maasros (Kenneth Miller)
• 6. Re: Who Brings the Chatos? Who may argue with BD? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: ADHD and Havinenu (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: The 5th cup (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: Regular Ice Cream is KLP (Kenneth Miller)
• 10. Re: Kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Re: Ta'am of eating matzah (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Who Brings the Chatos? Who may argue with BD? (Zvi Lampel)
• 13. Re: ADHD and Havinenu (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: ADHD and Havinenu (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Minhagim for Baalei Teshuva (Micha Berger)

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 09:43:58PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: On another matter (from Kinor David by R. Rimon) Ashkenazi poskim state
: that the shiur is in terms of volume and not weight.

: However, Kaf Hachayim (168:46) states that the minhag for Pesach and bracha
: achrona is to base the shiur on weight. Yechave Daat *ROY) concurs with
: this...

I didn't understand ROY that way. A kezayis is definitely a volume.

However, it is nearly impossible to measure volume. And today's sheets
displaying area end up being gross estimations because of the assumptions
they make about thickness.

However, all matzah is flour and water, and therefore regardless of air,
variations in thickness, etc... a similar volume of any matzah will weigh
roughly the same. A much much closer estimate, at least.

So I would have said the shiur is based on volume, but estimated using
weight.

:                                          Note that basing the shiur on
: weight is a major chumra since matza weighs more than water

That part, I agree with. But if we got a standard weight for a kezayis
of matzah, it would be the most precise way to get the right volume.
IIRC, a kezayis of water leshitasam is 27gm, and a kezayis of matzah would
weigh 20gm -- if it weren't for the chumerah of assuming the weight of
water.

Or LeZion vol 3 pg 30 says that the old estimation involved a different
matzah, and with tofay's matzos one can use the smaller weight.
He says the iqar is a volume of 29cc.

(To contrast with Ashkenazim: this is larger than RMWillig's kezayis of
22.5cc, but well below RMG's 43.5cc.)

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 06:26:18PM -0400, David Wacholder wrote:
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 06:26:18PM -0400, David Wacholder wrote:
: <<<1) Is "shemen kik" (castor oil?) kitniyot?  no standard minhag to
: prohibit minhag not to use it
: 1-A: DW heard from the Chernobyler Rebbe of Boro Park, retired chaplain of
: Maimonides Hospital, that RMF said - "every Chumraa iis a Kula". Stringent
: one direction means lenient in many others. If I would have known this when
: I was young....

: <<<3) 2 things that that we are not able to do today - a) drink a reviit of
: wine in one sip - some Purim after-effects here. He surely meant not
: swallowing the Matza "in one gulp:. I have seen a strong strapping youth
: have his face go red trying to eat a gigantic quantity of Matza at once...

A qulah that comes to a chumerah. Too big of a kezayis, and one is being
meiqil in the definition of akhilah gasa.

: b) to draw out the dalid of echath  th th th th - likein Teimanim to this
: day

Ibn Greirol, in one of his piyutim, asks the bees to continue saying their
Shema. Compare the /dh/ sound that begins the word "this" with the buzzing
of a bee, and this comment fits nicely.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 06:26:18PM -0400, David Wacholder wrote:
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 06:26:18PM -0400, David Wacholder wrote:
: <<<1) Is "shemen kik" (castor oil?) kitniyot?  no standard minhag to
: prohibit minhag not to use it
: 1-A: DW heard from the Chernobyler Rebbe of Boro Park, retired chaplain of
: Maimonides Hospital, that RMF said - "every Chumraa iis a Kula". Stringent
: one direction means lenient in many others. If I would have known this when
: I was young....

: <<<3) 2 things that that we are not able to do today - a) drink a reviit of
: wine in one sip - some Purim after-effects here. He surely meant not
: swallowing the Matza "in one gulp:. I have seen a strong strapping youth
: have his face go red trying to eat a gigantic quantity of Matza at once...

A qulah that comes to a chumerah. Too big of a kezayis, and one is being
meiqil in the definition of akhilah gasa.

: b) to draw out the dalid of echath  th th th th - likein Teimanim to this
: day

Ibn Greirol, in one of his piyutim, asks the bees to continue saying their
Shema. Compare the /dh/ sound that begins the word "this" with the buzzing
of a bee, and this comment fits nicely.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 10:25:13AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
:   Rabbi K also quotes a number of Acharonim. For the time being I will not
: comment on these, other than saying that to the best of my knowledge they
: do not offer any proofs to support their suggestions.

But I think this is the core of the dispute! RMK is arguing that a
precedent has been well set. The grounds to dismiss the pesaq of the Choq
Yaaqov, Maharsham, Peri Megadim, and Chasam Sofer and the discussion in
the Shitah Mequbetzes (none small names), would make or break grounds
to hold otherwise.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I wrote: "humility is self-deprecation, but it is an honest assessment of one's abilities."

Obviously, I meant: "humility is NOT self-deprecation, but it is an honest assessment of one's abilities."

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Breathe Right® Flu Relief
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On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 03:50:19PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: The KesefM explains that the notion of AmoRaIm not arguig against TaNaIm is
: just a convention, a non binding convention. He is compelled to say this
: because of the Halacha that a Dayan and a BD must not bow to their
: predecessors who were without doubt greater than they, if this BD's
: analysis of the Halacha leads them to a different conclusion. That being
: the case the KMishneh explains that AmoRaIm can certainly disagree with
: TaNaIm and the RULE is not a RULE but a non-binding convention. Its not a
: Chiddush that Rav may argue, the Chiddush is that the others did NOT.

Whether a rule or a convention, breaking it is still the chiddush.
The gemara feels a need to justify Rav's breaking the convention --
"Rav tan hu upalig" is only necessary because otherwise it /would/
be a chiddush.

Even according to the KM, whose shitah is far from universally accepted.
(Although R' Chaim Brisker proposes something similar.)

: The problem with this is that this is not an option it is a DUTY. THEY MUST
: NOT AGREE just because of who they are disagreeing with. So how can such a
: convention be introduced?

: Perhaps the KM means that they did not explore the Sugya but just accepted
: the ruling of the TaNaIm. Had they exlored the Halacha and concluded with a
: decided conclusion, they would not be entitled to bow to senior authority.

Or that this chiyuv doesn't exist. That there are times the fact that
someone you know is far more informed and far more in line with the
right modes of thinking necessary for pesaq reached a given conclusion
is itself sufficient reason to suspend one's own judgment. I would think
X. The fact that rishonim consistently deny X might convince me I must
be wrong -- even if I don't know how.

Then there is the CI's notion of placing the mishnah at the end of the
2000 years of Torah, the Rambam's notion of public consensus making
mishnah binding (at least as a yardstick, if not for each and every
pesaq), etc..

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 2nd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Chesed: What is constricted
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed?

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 01:24:25AM -0400, David Wacholder wrote:
: [Old joke] Why did our fathers put the Tephillin Shel Rosh onto their head,
: despite lacking mirrors,to find the central axis of the top of their head,
: whereas even Bar Mitzva boys today are given mirrors to find it?
: Answer: People's heads  became smaller. As a result, they can no longer
: locate the center of their heads without a GPS device.

A ,pre seropis answer, cut-n-pasted from my blog post at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/02/tefillin-mirrors.shtml>:

    When I started wearing tefillin, few people used a small hand mirror
    to see whether or not it was properly centered. I recall men using the
    shiny metal area indicating where to push on a door, the window in a
    door to a darkened stairwell, and other awkward solutions. Compared
    to that, the current ubiquity of mirrors, whether in the tefillin bag
    or even glued to the bottom of the tefillin box is a G-d-send. But
    for most of Jewish history, mirrors were not cheap to come by. So
    what did the Ribbono shel olam expect us to do?

    We lived for millenia before the heter iska allowed someone to
    give someone else money in a mechanism that allowed him to make
    money on the deal. The current interest free gema"ch is laudable,
    but we no longer feel the sense of brotherhood of "achikha ha'evyon"
    (your impoverished brother) that the Torah speaks of receiving your
    loan. Not to the extent that someone could buy a home off gema"ch
    money. Jewish society decayed, and workarounds had to be provided
    to minimize the impact of that decay.

    Without the mirror, the only way to fulfill the mitzvah of tefillin
    correctly is through areivus, each person in the minyan taking
    responsibility for each other's tefillin. Tefillin actually
    underscored the unity of the minyan, and the brotherhood of all
    Jews. But Jewish society decayed, and workarounds had to be provided
    to minimize the impact of that decay. The mirror is a better solution
    than trying to catch your reflection in a doorknob.

...
: SIDDUR OTZAR HATEFILLOT is a good place to start. It needs some reworking
: to catch up to our standards as it is almost a century old.  There were no
: I-Phones in Ozharov, my father's "heimishe" Shtedtl, but there were
: functioning wells.

Compehension is only part of the route to better davening.

What we also need to work on is accepting the notion of a religious
experience in which nothing new is learned. Tefillah as encounter,
rather than as learning experience.

I can't believe that we're expected to say the same words every day
and it's not supposed to be some kind of meditative practice, if not
what we would call actual "meditation".

Quoting from a more recent blog post, here is one possibily I've
been experimenting with lately (although the post doesn't mention
tefillah in particular)
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2013/03/vayiqra-2.shtml>:

    Rav Reueven Leuchter, opens his series on Concentration (first
    va'ad <http://ravleuchter.com/?p=1089>) contrasting between using
    the mind to problem-solve, and using the mind to create and refine
    an idea. People think of thinking in terms of knowing how to solve
    problems. But an idiot savant can solve math problems well beyond
    the reach of normal people. Problem solving isn't a measure of being
    an ideal human being. Where the mind is spiritual is in its ability
    to hold and create intangible entities, ideas.

    Picture it as circling the idea, seeing it from every angle. For
    example (his example), assuming you're exploring the verse, "Da lifnei
    Mi atah omeid -- Know before Whom you stand." Turn it around.... "DA
    lifnei Mi atah omeiad. Da LIFNEI Mi atah omeid... Know before WHOM
    you stand. Know before Whom YOU stand. Know before Whom you STAND."

    Polish each facet of the idea to a good shine. Make the idea real,
    massive. (Mass: someone who is contemplating a weighty thought can't
    simply be pushed aside by the allure of a shiny object or other
    distraction around him.) Make it a fine brick in a palace you build
    in your mind. A piece of a whole world of spirituality.

I've been picking sentences from the siddur and applying this technique
during davening. E.g. "Poseiach es Yadekha..." or "Ana H' ki ani
avdekha..."

: Replying directly, Rav Abbadi printed in his Tshuvot - name not coming to
: me - a shortened Birkat Hamazon - so those who make Mezonot for lack of
: time can say just the very minimum.  As far as I have heard there was
: little enthusiasm for it. Perhaps we fear the "slippery slope" and any
: buffet or change of routine may lead to abandonment of all.

The C movement's history gives much justification to this fear. In any
case, Siddur Sefas Yisrael has (R' Rallis Weisenthal w/ assistance from
Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz and KAYJ) has both Havinenu and a shortened
bentching on pg 407, <http://j.mp/10UScQT> or
<http://opensiddur.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Si
ddur-Sefas-Yisroel-v.1.14.1.pdf#page=407>

Given the juxtaposition of topics, it hit me that Havineinu might be a
great key for understanding the primary themes of the middle berakhos
of the full Shemoneh Esrei. We not only have the chasimah and the me'ein
hachasimah to tell us the thesis of "Atah Chonein", but we also
know that the core theme must be captured in the words "havineinu H'
E-lokeinu ladaas derakhakha".

: Taking the Frankel Rambam, or even Rav Saadya Gaon's siddur, and praying
: from it, is that even more radical? Our Al Hamichya is competitive in
: length with their entire Birkat Hamazon.

: What about a Teimani Baladi Tichlal? ...

I have less problem with an Ashkenazi temporarily borrowing Teimani or
Rambam's siddur than R' Saadia Gaon. The point at which ALL contemporary
siddurim diverge is that we are all praying from descendents of R' Amram
Gaon's siddur. Davening from R' Saadia Gaon's siddur or some Nusach EY
is leaving that universal conensus.

(Aside from my skepticism about being able to recreate any Nusach EY
piecing together one consistent nusach from the bits found in the Cairo
genizah, even with hints found in the Y-mi or medrashim.)

: Praying from the wrong Siddur worked for me, at times, short term. Perhaps
: it even had some effect long term.

For me too. What has also worked is praying my own nusach while reading
from a siddur in another nusach. BUT... there is a major gotcha: you don't
know when the two nusachos are simply variants on the same theme, and
when they differ because they are intentionally invoking different themes.

I also find this a MAJOR issue when listening to a shiur. The maggid
shiur could use one rishon (eg) to reinforce the point of the other, by
assuming the two rishonim hold slightly different variants of the same
basic shitah, or he could use one as a foil for the other, by making the
whole point about the distinction between the shitos. Does the Rambam's
text shed light on the gemara as Rashi understood it? Or perhaps that's
the whole reason why the Rambam didn't quite the gemara as we have it
verbatum because he DOESN'T understand it as Rashi would?

But an example that takes us back to the siddur: "kulam ke'echad onim
ve'omerim beyir'ah" in Birkhas Yotzer Or, nusach Ashkenaz.

It could be read as
1- an idiom referring to one spoken declaration. Or as
2- "qedushah kulam ke'echad onim, ve'omerim beyir'ah 'Qadosh...'"

Nusach Sepharad requires the latter, since they have an adjective which
breaks the idiom, "kulam ke'echad onim be'eimah, veomerim beyir'ah

Now, does that shed light on how to parse the Ashkenazi nusach? IOW, we
might assume that Ashkenaz too has a comma between "kulam ke'echad onim"
and "ve'omerim" because we treat nusach Sepharad as a paraalel. Or did the
Ashkenazi nusach refrain from the "be'eimah" because it bedavqa wants a
single idiom -- in contrast to Sepharad?

You can pick your conclusion first, and "prove" it either way from the
same text.

But all these thoughts inform two different ways of saying my inherited
nusach, which only came to mind because I was looking at a slightly different
one.

: The classic print of Machazor Vitri (Halacha and Nusach, centered around
: Rashi's students. Hebrewbooks.org makes it  freely available. Pages 148-154
: - at the havdala end of the Shabbos prayers - makes almost a dissection of
: every word of the Nishmas Kol Chai prayer. I am convinced that the main
: narrator, unnamed except "Rebbe" - is Rashi himself.  The "scribe" is the
: Rabeinu Eliezer Ben Nathan, the RAAVAN.

I wanted to do the same contrasting MV and of Ashkenazic versions of Seder
R' Amram with contemporary Ashknenaz(es). (Not for davening, for study.) But
just coming through the hebrewbooks.org copy for the nusach of the actual
ancient nusach was harrowing. I kept on missing pieces among everything
else.

: Nishmas with color coding is a far more inspiring prayer.

If you have it in electronic form, I'd be happy to host it on Avodah's
archive of PDFs. (Named "www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes" for historical
reasons.)

: Integration of  Tana"ch with Tefilah, and allowing the students to interact
: with it, may be a tremendous potential uplift in our educational systems.

Teaching tefillah is tough. In fact, one of the ways I tortured my
daughter's then-future chasan was by asking him for a solution to the
following dilemma:

If you teach tefillah too young, then you inculcate a habit of saying
meaningless syllables. A habit most people slip back to even after
learning the meaning.

If you don't teach it that young, you don't inculcate the habit at all,
at least not sufficiently enough to motivate spending over an hour a day
davening. It has to be unthinkable not to, and that requires starting
very early.

(Don't worry: he's my son-in-law now.)

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 2nd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Chesed: What is constricted
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed?

R' Liron Kopinsky asked:

> Does he say when that cup should be drunk? In general, I thought
> the Halacha was that you are allowed to drink extra cups between
> cups 2 and 3, but not between 1 & 2, to not be drunk during
> maggid, and not between 3 & 4 (or after 4) to not look like we
> are actually having a 5th cup.

All very true, except that the "no fifth cup" rule is not universally
accepted, so there's a bit of wiggle room, provided that it is done
correctly (so as not to look like a sixth cup, I suppose).

Rama 481:1 -- "One who is an istenis (delicate) or has a great desire to drink, may drink a fifth cup, and he says Hallel Hagadol over it."

MB 481:3 -- "This is specifically if he has not concluded the bracha. He
drinks the fourth cup,and then he can say Hallel Hagadol to the end, and
say the concluding bracha, and drink the fifth cup. But if he already
finished off the end of the bracha, he cannot go back and repeat Hallel
Hagadol and say the bracha afterward, because Chazel established only one
bracha.

Here's my understanding of the sequence one would follow at a nusach Ashkenaz Seder:

Regular Hallel to the end
Y'halelucha
- the extra Hagafen and cup are inserted here
Hallel Hagadol
Nishmas and Yishtabach with its regular chasima
Hagafen and drink the cup

Normally, Nusach Ashkenaz omits the chasimas bracha from Y'halelucha at the
seder, because we'll be saying the chasima of Yishtabach. I've always been
curious whether adding a fifth cup would change those rules, and give us
good reason to say *all* of Y'halelucha.

I'm much less clear how one would add the fifth cup in Nusach Sefard. My understanding of the sequence at a four-cup Nusach Sefard seder is as follows:

Regular Hallel to the end
Hallel Hagadol
Nishmas and Yishtabach without its chasima
Y'halelucha with its chasima
Hagafen and drink the cup

Given that the regular four cups are not merely said at specific points in
the Seder, but are connected to specific brachos (Kiddush, Geulah, Mazon,
Hallel), I don't know what the sequence would be for a nusach sefard person
who needed to add the fifth cup, seeing as how tangled the pieces are.
Would he add it before Hallel Hagadol without any other bracha? Or after
Yishtabach between two brachos?

PLEASE NOTE: In my experience, very few hagados mention anything about
Nusach Sefard or Ashkenaz, and they simply follow one or the other with no
labeling. ArtScroll is among the few which do show the differences between
them. (I am reminded of the ubiquitous Ushpizin posters which are also
silent on nusach.)

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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R' Meir Rabi wrote:

> so continuing our thinking, regular ice cream made by a G, even
> if it contains small amounts (actually even large amounts as
> long as it's less than 50%) of Kitniyos, and they Kitniyos is
> not visible notwithstanding that it certainly TASTES of Kitniyos,
> is actually KLP. If the company requests that a Hechsher be
> granted, that's ok, as we explained from Reb Moshe.

(For the record, RMR is referring to the Igros Moshe, Yorah Deah 2:41, as
he cited in Avodah 31:49, in a thread titled "Reb Moshe, The Case of Hidden
Kitniyos in your KLP Cocolate".)

I skimmed over that teshuva, and I must admit that RMR is accurately
representing how Rav Moshe would hold. In fact, he might even go further:
As long as someone has a way of determining that the kitniyos is less than
50%, AND that the chometz and tarfus are under 1/60 and don't contribute to
the taste AND that it is purchased before Pesach, then I'm not sure what
the problem would be at all -- even if it has no hechsher whatsoever. (On
the other hand, as great as Rav Moshe was, I don't know how other poskim
have ruled in similar situations.)

I have long since stopped laughing at previous generations who thought that "everything was kosher". Maybe they were right.

But that doesn't mean that I will eat it myself. Only that I'm not sure why I'm refraining from it.

I learned about kashrus from various publications, mostly printed by the
big hechsherim, which contained dire warnings of what might happen to my
soul if I used vegetable oil which was shipped in a tanker which had been
previously used for lard. Personally, I've been taking them at their word,
mostly because I have no idea how much lard is still in the tanker when
they claim it to have been emptied. But concepts like "stam keilim ainam
bnei yoman" make me suspect that we are worrying about things that Chazal
were *not* worried about.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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R"n Chana Luntz shared some very instructive insights into what it is like
to see various minhagim both as an insider and as an outsider, and I thank
her for that. Such stories are very important, and have helped me develop
empathy (which I understand to be far better than *sympathy*) for people in
various situations. (My many conversations with a Deaf friend are in the
same category.)

She also wrote:

> Now one can see this as possibly reflecting two different
> strands within the Pesach story - the one being the
> deprivation of slavery, and the other being the celebration
> of freedom.  And the first strand can be seen even more
> sharply amongst the Chassidic practices where there seems
> almost a desire to find more and more things to go without.

I have never seen or heard any of this. There is indeed a dual nature to
*matza*, which commemorates both the poor bread that we ate as slaves and
also the hurried bread of the Exodus. But that's very different than what
you seem to be writing about, which has more to do with a feeling of
deprivation resulting from chametz being forbidden. To me that sounds like
an awful corruption of many mussar shmoozes I've heard, in which chametz is
described as a haughty food, one which causes egos to be inflated like the
dough. We eschew that haughtiness on Pesach, in an attempt to rein in our
egos, but only for one week per year, lest we descend too far into
self-negation.

But I do not feel deprived on Pesach. Nor have I ever. Sure, it can be
difficult to find something to eat. But to those who are used to Hilchos
Kashrus the rest of the year, this is just a little trickier. That's how
*I* see it, anyway. When my kids or friends start kvetching about how they
are jealous of the sefaradim who have so many more options, I gently remind
them, "You realize of course, that the non-gebroks crowd says that same
thing about YOU." I also point out that if one is hungry or thirsty on Chol
Hamoed, even in the most non-Jewish area one can usually find a convenience
store which has bottled water and fresh bananas.

> But while the levels of deprivation seems very normal when
> you live fully within an Ashkenazi environment (even where,
> as in Australia, the non Jews don't deprive themselves at
> all), once you live cheek by jowl with Sephardim, and you see
> how they celebrate pesach, it doesn't really feel like such a
> celebration any more, and somehow I can see pesach feeling
> more akin to the three weeks and Tisha B'Av.  And once that
> feeling has lodged, it can be very hard to displace.  That I
> think, psychologically, is what is driving a lot of this -
> Pesach starts feeling like a party to which you haven't quite
> been invited, and yet you ought to have been invited. And yet
> on the other hand, those who wish to cling to pesach as it was
> practiced by minhag avos, when it really was about
> deprivation, are struggling too - because of how clever
> manufacturing and food producers are these days, so those who
> want to practice it like it traditionally was have to keep
> finding more and more things to ban to give that deprived
> feeling of really not having anything one can satisfyingly eat
> for breakfast.  So while it may end up being a clash of
> paradigms - the paradigm from the Ashkenazi side doesn't feel
> as satisfying anymore and that is leading to all this
> vehemence within the Ashkenazi community about how to deal
> with the new reality.  And the Chacham Zvi/Rav Ya'akov Emden,
> who really were the only gaonim who grappled with this dual
> living in modern times end up at the forefront of the debate.

I concede that as a child, I was indeed very frustrated breakfast-time. But
that is an unfortunate by-product of the Pesach restrictions. No one WANTS
to feel deprived, and no one WANTS to place further restrictions on our
choices. (There are many, it is true, who have such a fear of chometz that
they prefer additional cutbacks over the risk of mistakes.)

But I do realize that we are human, and if one lives among other who have
fewer restrictions, a certain amount of envy is probably inevitable. The
way my family tries to deal with it is not by loosening the restrictions,
but by reveling in them. For example, there are several favorite recipes my
wife has, and there's no reason why these recipes can't be used during the
year. But when the kids request those dishes in July or January, her
response is, "But then it won't taste as special on Pesach."

I suppose the bottom line is that for over 30 years (kein yirbu) I have
been living with someone who has no restrictions at all about where to eat
on Sukkos. I do confess to occasionally being a little jealous of her for
that, but it doesn't cause me to see Sukkos as a holiday of deprivation.
But that's just me.

I hope that I have not offended anyone in this post. If I did, I apologize.
It's just that some of what I've been hearing and reading lately seems
pretty extreme, and I just don't get it.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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[Subject line changed to match that of 2008's iteration.]

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 04:08:28PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: There is indeed a dual nature to *matza*, which commemorates both
: the poor bread that we ate as slaves and also the hurried bread of the
: Exodus...

There are actually FOUR natures to matzah. In historical order:

1- Ha lakhma anya -- that we ate as slaves
2- Al matzos umerorim yokhluhu -- the matzah of the qorban Pesach which was
   commanded for the night before yetzi'as Mitrayim
3- ... Ugos matzos ki lo chameitz; ki gorshu miMitzrayim velo yokhlu
   lehismahmeiha... -- the hurried bread
4- Ki yish'alkha binkha machar -- which the gemara associates with "lekhem
   she'onim alav devarim harbei"

Notably, each becomes the centerpiece of its own kos. (Although not in
the above chronological sequence.)

1- Lekhem oni (aniyim) is the theme of karpas in salt water and yachatz.
   We fill kos 2 AFTER Ha Lakhma Anya

2- and before our children ask those questions. Kos 2 is Magid -- onim alav
   devarim harbei

3- Eating the commemoration of the qorban is done before kos 3

4- And saying Hallel because we ourselves are hurrying out of Egypt is kos
   4.

AND, I think these four stages parallel those of teshuvah:

1- Lekhem oni - charatah al ha'avar

2- Maggid - vidui (discussing the change cognitively)

3- Motzi through the Meal - azivas hacheit (enacting the change)

4- Hallel - Qabbalah al ha'asid (living as changed)

Which is why I'm eagerly watching the discussion of when to drink the 5th
cup, not that I have anything to contribute to it.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 2nd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Chesed: What is constricted
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed?

Let's not lose track of the fact that the Rambam (following Rav Hai
Gaon) applies the principle (of a Beis Din Gadol being able to
overturn the decision of a greater earlier one) only to matters based
on darshonning pesukim, in contrast to overturning matters of takkonos
and gezayros.

> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 03:50:19PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
> : The KesefM explains that the notion of AmoRaIm not arguig against TaNaIm ...
>

On 28/03/2013 12:29 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> But an example that takes us back to the siddur: "kulam ke'echad onim
> ve'omerim beyir'ah" in Birkhas Yotzer Or, nusach Ashkenaz.
>
> It could be read as
> 1- an idiom referring to one spoken declaration. Or as
> 2- "qedushah kulam ke'echad onim, ve'omerim beyir'ah 'Qadosh...'"
>
> Nusach Sepharad requires the latter, since they have an adjective which
> breaks the idiom, "kulam ke'echad onim be'eimah, veomerim beyir'ah
>
> Now, does that shed light on how to parse the Ashkenazi nusach? IOW, we
> might assume that Ashkenaz too has a comma between "kulam ke'echad onim"
> and "ve'omerim" because we treat nusach Sepharad as a paraalel. Or did the
> Ashkenazi nusach refrain from the "be'eimah" because it bedavqa wants a
> single idiom -- in contrast to Sepharad?

Yavo hakasuv hashlishi, or rather, yavo an ancestor of Ashkenaz: Italian
has "...besafa berura bin`ima uvikdusha, kulam ke'echad onim beyir`ah,
ve'omerim: kadosh...".   If the current Nusach Ashkenaz version does indeed
descend from this one, then it would indicate that option #2 is intended.
OTOH, perhaps the Italian version was influenced by Nusach Sefarad, and
Nusach Ashkenaz deliberately has the order it does in order to go with
option #1.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:41:08PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 28/03/2013 12:29 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> It could be read as
>> 1- an idiom referring to one spoken declaration. Or as
>> 2- "qedushah kulam ke'echad onim, ve'omerim beyir'ah 'Qadosh...'"

>> Nusach Sepharad requires the latter, since they have an adjective which
>> breaks the idiom, "kulam ke'echad onim be'eimah, veomerim beyir'ah

>> Now, does that shed light on how to parse the Ashkenazi nusach? IOW, we
>> might assume that Ashkenaz too has a comma between "kulam ke'echad onim"
>> and "ve'omerim" because we treat nusach Sepharad as a paraalel. Or did the
>> Ashkenazi nusach refrain from the "be'eimah" because it bedavqa wants a
>> single idiom -- in contrast to Sepharad?

> Yavo hakasuv hashlishi, or rather, yavo an ancestor of Ashkenaz: Italian
> has "...besafa berura bin`ima uvikdusha, kulam ke'echad onim beyir`ah,
> ve'omerim: kadosh...".   If the current Nusach Ashkenaz version does indeed
> descend from this one, then it would indicate that option #2 is intended.

Or that it was considered and intentionally rejected.

Which was my point. I don't know how people decide when to compare and
when to contrast.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 2nd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Chesed: What is constricted
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed?

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 11:59:25PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: My understanding is that in all of these cases, he should try to
: determine where his ancestors are from, and try to follow the minhagim
: of that place. As stronger question might be for a person who has
: no ancestors - a ger - but my unders tanding is that the established
: practice is for a ger to take on the minhagim of the beis din that
: converted him.

Let's go back a step.

Minhag is supposed to be by location. It's only because the norm has
become that few locations have a minhag hamaqom that our ancestors'
location became determinant -- we have no local custom to switch to,
so we stick with the one we came from.

I would therefore think that someone who has to adopt minhagim needs
to pick a community to affiliate with, and follow theirs consistently.
Since the idea of minhag is to belong to something.

I am not as sure as RAM that this is usually the BD who was megayeir him.
But I do think that following one's rebbe when one is learning is natural,
although now I'm talking more sociology/psychology then what I think the
halakhah advises. E.g. WRT baalei teshuvah... I know of Yekkes and
Sepharadim who practice Chabad minhagim, daven Ari, etc... because they
or a parent were brought back by a meshulach. And not just Lub does
this... Ohr Samayach and Aish haTorah produce ahistorical Litvaks, etc...

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 1st day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Chesed: What is unbridled
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          Chesed?


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