Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 50

Sat, 23 Mar 2013

• 1. Luach Shel Chag ha Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 2. 7 days of Pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Kitniyos on Erev Pesach (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: Kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 7. Minhag Ashkenaz (Prof. Levine)
• 8. R Zilberstein Hagada (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: 7 days of Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 10. kitniyot & size of kezayit weight or volume (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Kitnyios [and Yoshon and chumros] (David Wacholder)
• 12. Re: Kitniyot (Chana Luntz)
• 13. Regular Ice Cream is KLP (Meir Rabi)

Someone sent me a clear pdf file of  the Luach that Rabbi Mordechai 
Geller, z"l,  used to prepare a document by this title every 
year.  His son has continued this practice and the document,  which 
is geared to Brooklyn, NY is at

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/luach_geller.pdf

It contains much information related to Pesach.

In addition,  someone sent me the following information about Rabbi Geller.

R. Yehoshua Mordechai (Eugene M.) Geller, a Chicago Yid, was greatly 
influenced by the Suvalker Rav, Rav Dovid Lifschitz z"l, when he was 
in Chicago in the WWII era, and later moved to NY following his 
Rebbe. He taught youngsters at Manhattan Day School for many years. 
He was niftar about two years ago

A number of family members of his live in the Midwood area.


YL


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Question: Why is Pesach 7 days long?

To rephrase the question the Torah in Parshat Bo specifies that Pesach is 7
days before
the Jews crossed the Reed Sea.
Hence, is it coincidence that Kriyat Yam Suf is the 7th day of Pesach or is
it Nevuah?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 22/03/2013 9:28 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:

>> it is forbidden to eat any Kitniyos on Erev Pesach from the same time
>> one may not eat Chomets.
>
> On the other hand the following is from
> http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/Erev_Passover/
>
>> Products containing *matzoh meal* that are *baked* (e.g. matzoh meal cake)
>> may not be eaten all day Erev Pesach. Kosher for Passover matzoh meal
>> products that are cooked (e.g. knaidlach) may be eaten until the beginning
>> of the 10th halachic hour of the day - three halachic hours before sunset.
>
>> Thus it is clear that there is a real difference between eating gebrokts
> and eating kitniyos on Pesach.  One is most certainly allowed to eat certain
> gebrokts food Erev Pesach until the 10th halachic hour

Says who?  The article you're quoting is addressing at those who eat
gebrochts on Pesach itself, so naturally they can eat it on Erev Pesach.
How do you know that those who don't eat gebrochts on (the first seven
days of) Pesach can eat it on Erev Pesach?


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 3/22/2013 7:50 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R"n Lisa Liel wrote:
>    
>> In this video, Rabbi Bar Hayim discusses the sources related
>> to the minhag of not eating kitniyot on Pesach.
>> He demonstrates that the custom, which originated in France,
>> was an error, brings numerous Rishonim who say that it was
>> an error (and in one cases called it a minhag shtut), and
>> cogently that the custom is harmful and should be
>> abandoned.
>>      
> I did not watch the video, but for the sake of argument, I will concede that his sources are many and that his logic is sound.
>
> But even so, he is in the minority, isn't he? Are there ANY major
> nosei keilim or acharonim or poskim who advocate the wholesale
> abandonment of this minhag, for Ashkenazim?
>    

Certainly.  But if he brings sources and they don't, it doesn't matter.  
A daat yachid with sources backing him is preferable to a rov that 
simply dismisses the issue.

> Honestly, I really don't understand the vehemence that I have recently
> seen against this minhag, which Ashkenazim have been following for
> hundreds of years. Granted that the poskim often question what is
> included in this minhag, but doesn't everyone agree that Ashkenazim DO
> avoid kitniyos?
>    

There are two issues.  One is that the minhag was likely a mistake in 
the first place.  It may even have been an inadvertant mimicry of a 
Karaite minhag (you really should watch the video).  The other issue is 
that hechshering authorities are forbidding more and more foods in the 
name of kitniyot all the time.  Corn (maize -- what we call corn in 
America) was clearly *not* included in this prohibition for centuries, 
because it wasn't even known for centuries.  Same with peanuts, which 
RMF clearly paskened are *not* kitniyot.  Not to mention the issue of 
kitniyot oil, which was something that got tacked on to the basic 
prohibition of kitniyot.  Not to mention the fact that baalei teshuva, 
not having a family minhag of kitniyot avoidance, should certainly not 
be bound by it.

> Have I missed something? Is there a Mishneh Brurah or an Aruch
> Hashulchan somewhere which says that there are some places -- which
> otherwise follow the Rama! -- where rice and beans are eaten, and that
> this practice is okay?
>    

The question is whether the custom was ever anything but a mistake.  
Contrary to what I've seen cited here in the name of the Rav, there is 
nothing in the Gemara that even hints at such a thing as forbidding 
kitniyot.  On the contrary, there are descriptions in the Gemara of 
rabbis eating rice at the seder, and not a voice is raised questioning 
this practice.  What RBW said was this:

"The Rav's basic assumption is that such a huge split in practice 
(kitniyot) can't be something that popped up in the 10th century; rather 
it has to be rooted in a machloqet in the Gemara."

WADR, I can't accept that reasoning.  It absolutely *can* be something 
that popped up in the 10th century, and according to all the evidence we 
have, that's exactly what did happen.  The reasoning attributed to the 
Rav reminds me of the joke that asks how we know that Yaakov Avinu wore 
a black hat, and answers that it says "vayetze Yaakov", and surely he 
wouldn't have gone out without a black hat.

Lisa

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 02:33:38PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 3/22/2013 7:50 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
>> But even so, he is in the minority, isn't he? Are there ANY major nosei
>> keilim or acharonim or poskim who advocate the wholesale abandonment of
>> this minhag, for Ashkenazim?

> Certainly.  But if he brings sources and they don't, it doesn't matter.   
> A daat yachid with sources backing him is preferable to a rov that  
> simply dismisses the issue.

I disagree. See my most recent blog post
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2013/03/tzav.shtml>.
The topic is the implications of the difference between a legislative
process and a fact-finding one, including the need to think in terms
of what gives a ruling authority, not what makes the most sense from
a historical or scientific perspective.

Teaser:
    ...
    Actually, there are many halachic rules based on who said
    it. Following Beis Hillel over Beis Shammai. Obeying the majority rule
    in a Sanhedrin. The Shulchan Arukh, in general, follows the majority
    of the Rif, the Rambam and the Tur -- not the ruling he finds most
    reasonable. The Rambam, in the introduction to his Mishneh Torah,
    sources the gemara's authority in the fact that its rulings spread
    across the observant community -- not because of the power of its
    arguments. And similarly of later rabbis, and the local communities
    they led.
    ...
    Because the Rambam is thought of as our tradition's arch-rationalist
    (a title Rav Saadia Geon or the Ralbag are also in the running for),
    I'm going to quote the words of the introduction to reinforce the
    point that even our rationalists understood that halakhah requires
    working within its own process, and not an a priori rationality
    given historical facts. This is from Mechon Mamre's translation
    <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/p0000.htm>:
    ...

In this case, we are discussing someone who totally disagrees with
my thesis there. RMCH and Machon Shilo talk about walking the halachic
process back to using RNCH's attempt to reconstruct Nusach EY by selecting
from among sometimes-conflicting snippets of siddur in the Cairo Genizah
and using a few queues from the Yerushalmi. My argument would have you
conclude that since all of Israel -- from Yekkes to Yemenites -- use
derivatives of Seder Rav Amram Gaon, needing to have such derivation is
binding.

In contrast to how I closed my post:

    Mesorah is a living tradition of a development of ideas. The Oral
    Torah is oral, a dialog across the generations. If we see a quote in
    the gemara from Rav Yochanan, we might be curious about the historical
    intent of Rav Yochanan. But in terms of Torah, important to us than
    what R' Yochanan's original intent is what R' Ashi thought that
    intent was, which in turn can only be understood through the eyes
    of what the Rosh and the Rambam understood R' Ashi's meaning to be,
    which in turn can only be understood through the eyes of the Shaagas
    Aryeh and R' Chaim Brisker. That is the true meaning, in terms of
    Torah, of Rav Yoachanan's statement.

    By sharing the job one's halakhah decision-making with a mentor-poseiq
    one is connecting to something eternal. Fealty to halakhah with all
    its notions of authority and precedence (or should that be: authority
    including precedence?) saves one from existential angst. Being
    part of something eternal means my contributions to the fate of
    the universe will survive my death. Joining the community, finding
    a different balance between personal expression and fealty to that
    community and its laws than the "do your own thing", "self made man",
    idealization of autonomy in American and Western society gives me
    the leverage to be part of something bigger than I am alone.o

    Am Yisrael Chai for far more than 120 years.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I think one must distinguish between an actual mistake, of the sort that
would have made the original authority change his mind had it been brought
to his attention, and defying the original authority because "we know better".

In the case of kitniyos, there is no mistake, Besamim Rosh is a known forgery,
and all the Ashkenazi poskim take it very seriously.  The fact that they work
so hard to justify a heter in case of food shortages proves how seriously they
take it.  For someone now to come and say they were all full of nonsense is
beyond chutzpah.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

At 11:29 AM 3/22/2013, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
>The RaMa is the master of Minhag Ashkenaz

I have to disagree with this statement.  The RAMA lived in 
Krakow,  which is, of course, Poland and not in Germany,  the true 
seat of minhag Ashkenaz.  Many of the minhagim that are Minhag 
Frankfurt differ from what the RAMA writes.  If you read the four 
seforim Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz by Rabbi Binyamin Hamburger,  you 
will see many differences between the minhagim of Poland and those of German.

YL
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A hagada from R Zilbesterstein recently was published.
I just glanced at it and saw 2 stories in the beginning

1) RYSE had the kiddush cup of his gradfather Baal Haleshem. However, he
couldnt use it because it did not contain the shiur of Chazon Ish. One year
R. Zilberstein arranged to have it extended to increase the size to shiur
CI. When R. Elyashiv received it near Pesach he danced in joy even though
his practicw as never to show any emotion

2) A widow came to RYZA with some lettuce which she said she couldnt clean
from bugs and what should she do.  RSZA asked for the lettuce and spent the
next 2 hours cleaning it himself

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 04:28:10PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Hence, is it coincidence that Kriyat Yam Suf is the 7th day of Pesach or is
: it Nevuah?

I think it's common cause. We got to the sea when it was metaphysically
proper to do so, the same thing which made the day special enough for
Hashem to tell us to rest on it.

Much the way Chazal would tell us that Avraham was eating matzos because
the event was on what would in the future be Pesach. There is something
Pesach-y about the day which is part of why the redemption was then.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Siddur Pesach Kehilchaso (p188) states that one can eat kitniyot on Erev
Pesach (cf pri megadim mav-mem-daled (eshel avraham 2))

On another matter (from Kinor David by R. Rimon) Ashkenazi poskim state
that the shiur is in terms of volume and not weight.
However, Kaf Hachayim (168:46) states that the minhag for Pesach and bracha
achrona is to base the shiur on weight. Yechave Daat *ROY) concurs with
this. However, other sefardi poskim eg Chida, R. Meshash and Or Letzion
state that the shiur is based on volume. Note that basing the shiur on
weight is a major chumra since matza weighs more than water

-- 
Eli Turkel
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-R' Turkel kindly mentioned some Torah Sheb'al Peh of Rav MF Ztz"al and
with forgiveness of others, I will give you my sleep-deprived comments.

<<<1) Is "shemen kik" (castor oil?) kitniyot?  no standard minhag to
prohibit minhag not to use it
1-A: DW heard from the Chernobyler Rebbe of Boro Park, retired chaplain of
Maimonides Hospital, that RMF said - "every Chumraa iis a Kula". Stringent
one direction means lenient in many others. If I would have known this when
I was young....
1-B: Name dropping, Rav Nachum E Wachtfogel quoted a historian who heard
from Rav Mendel Zaks the Chafetz Chaim's son in law: a lady came Erev
Pesach with a roasted chicken who had a grain baked inside, which is/was
standard minhag that it it Assur. the CC was Matir - he said it was Kosher.
The shocked Son in law asked why? CC answered realisitically - let us say I
forbid it - she tells her spouse the chicken was Treif, he beats her up,
screams at her, the entire Yom Tov is ruined. Better to [rely on the
leniency on the kernel of granin". Rav NEW says he does not believe it, but
to my ears it is very similar to other practical applications of
understanding human nature by the CC.
1C:  ==The debate on Kitniyos/ oil was on a very high level and I enjoyed
it very much.
1D: Segue to Yoshon: From one praise-worthy post to another,  on the Alter
Rebbe struggles in the Yoshon issue, was well written and gratifying to
see. SomFor those who share my fascination, the "Vadai Assur" to "Almost
Muttar" metamorphasis of the Yoshon quesion is "sui generis" Unique/ one of
a kind). approach the Judicial History of  this is unique.  Back on track,
Yoshon in Tosfos Kidushin is not controversial enough to be worth
mentioning. Raaviya"h (Bonne near the Rhine River)has the question and
refuses to be Meikeil, Rav Yitzchak Or Zarua (Prague - collator and direct
student of RAVYA) makes (Chutz La'aretz and Shel Lo Yehudi) Drabanan, and
the new-fangled editions of Shut Rav Chaim Or Zarua allow it with a Sfeik
Sfeika that I challenge all the jousters to explain rationally. The
practicality was large numbers of starving people and no other solution in
a very much pre-industrial economy..
1E: Generally German Psak was the most "machmir" - except such cases as R'
Baruch who elicited a strongly phrased reply because he wanted to Assur a
Get smuggled by non-Jews over enemy lines.

<<<2) ....Nuts to children an hour before the seder - this is a context
related advice - so the principle is universal, while the specifics are
regional and temporal.

<<<3) 2 things that that we are not able to do today - a) drink a reviit of
wine in one sip - some Purim after-effects here. He surely meant not
swallowing the Matza "in one gulp:. I have seen a strong strapping youth
have his face go red trying to eat a gigantic quantity of Matza at once.
 The MB already mentions the potential of a normal person swallowing 3
Olives at once. Here the point is that if you have a thousand year old
olive tree - you will see olives quite small, I once tried to eat an egg in
16 bits but was unable to make sufficiently small bites. Rav David Bar
Chaim shows all the agricultural possiblities.

b) to draw out the dalid of echath  th th th th - likein Teimanim to this
day


-- 
David Wacholder

Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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RAM writes:

>I did not watch the video, but for the sake of argument, I will concede
that his sources are many and that his >logic is sound.

>But even so, he is in the minority, isn't he? Are there ANY major nosei
keilim or acharonim or poskim who >advocate the wholesale abandonment of
this minhag, for Ashkenazim?

There is only the Chacham Zvi and Rav Ya'akov Emden (quoting his father the
Chacham Zvi) - that he tried very hard to abolish the minhag and would have
done so if he could have got the other gadolim to go along with him.

Of course what is noteworthy about the Chacham Zvi and Rav Ya'akov Emden is
that the Chacham Zvi spent a significant period of time being a Rav in
Constantinople (then mostly Sephardi) and so Rav Ya'akov Emden spent a good
period of his formative years amongst Sephardim.  As a consequence, he
introduced a number of Sephardi customs into Ashkenaz, most notably the
practice of all kaddish sayers saying kaddish together, rather than fighting
over which one of them gets to say it (as was the prevailing practice in
Ashkenazi prior).

>Honestly, I really don't understand the vehemence that I have recently seen
against this minhag, which >Ashkenazim have been following for hundreds of
years. Granted that the poskim often question what is included >in this
minhag, but doesn't everyone agree that Ashkenazim DO avoid kitniyos?

>Have I missed something? Is there a Mishneh Brurah or an Aruch Hashulchan
somewhere which says that there are >some places -- which otherwise follow
the Rama! -- where rice and beans are eaten, and that this practice is
>okay?

I think that what is happening is a consequence of the intermingling of the
two communities.  Perhaps my own story is in some ways instructive, because
I happen to belong to that very select group, those whom *everybody* agrees
are permitted (and many say required) to change their minhag from not eating
kitniyos to eating kitniyos - Ashkenazi women who marry Sephardi men.

Growing up in Australia amongst an Ashkenazi community, sure I knew that
Sephardim ate rice on pesach, but that piece of information had as much
relevance to me as knowing that Eskimos build igloos.  The only people I
knew who ate kitniyos on Pesach also ate chametz on Pesach (ie they were not
religious).

And even when I went to Israel and was faced with the rows and rows of
supermarket shelves amongst which one had to sort for the items that did not
contain kitniyos, that of course is what one did.

But then I met my husband (at an Ashkenazi 18-30 minyan no less - his point
being if he had only hung around Sephardi minyanim in an overwhelmingly
Ashkenazi country his chances of finding someone to marry would be severely
diminished).

And while the issue of minhagim was a huge one, at least for me, and pretty
close to derailed our ever getting married, luckily there were people out
there like the Bnei Banim who take what in my view is a more sensible
approach to this question than many poskim.  Because while if you come from
Minsk, and he comes from Pinsk, and there are a few minor differences, it is
not very difficult to change over - the minhag differences in our case were
huge, and besides the strain on my sanity, I genuinely believe that it would
have taken me years (and, I confess, I think my knowledge on these things is
somewhat above average) to accurately and properly have made the changes,
and in the meantime I just would have done neither well.

But, one of the points the Bnei Banim made was that you cannot have two food
standards in one household, so while we agreed before we got married that we
would each keep our own minhagim vis a vis davening etc, we also agreed we
would adopt his food standards in the household.  Partly I think because it
was easiest to go the traditional route, and partly because food genuinely
means a lot more to him than it does to me.  He is the one who really enjoys
cooking, and would spend more time in the kitchen if he could.  I am the one
who thinks cooking is so that people can eat and would rather have my head
in a sefer than spend more time in the kitchen.  But adopting his food
standards meant halak beit yosef meat, chazara Sephardi style to a blech on
shabbas .. and kitniyos on pesach.  

So I have looked at life from both sides now .. and I confess I do end up
having a lot of sympathy with my putative relative (the Luntz's lay claim to
Rav Ya'akov Emden, even so far as in the Jewish Encyclopedia, although
whether there is any credence to this claim I don't know).

Because what has happened to an Ashkenazi pesach is that kitniyot  dominates
(and gebrochts even more dominates) - the manishtana really should be:
shebchol haleylos, anu ochlin kol minei kitniyos, halayla hazeh kulo matzah.
In many ways you notice the absence of the kitniyos even more than you
notice the absence of the chametz.  And to the extent you keep it, you
notice the absence of gebrochts even more.

Now one can see this as possibly reflecting two different strands within the
Pesach story - the one being the deprivation of slavery, and the other being
the celebration of freedom.  And the first strand can be seen even more
sharply amongst the Chassidic practices where there seems almost a desire to
find more and more things to go without.

And some of what might be driving this, I confess has only struck me since
we started having Romanian au pairs for our very disabled son.  Because
again, while I knew about Lent, I had no idea how seriously the Eastern
Europeans take it.  Our Romanian au pairs go off all meat and all dairy and
all eggs over this period - so I can really see how a slightly different
form of deprivation would fit right into the zeitgeist in Europe, while the
kind of emphasis on feasting and celebration that is much more a
characteristic of having a much greater range of foods to play with and
which is customary amongst the Sephardim might even have been a bit
offensive to the wider world that Ashkenazim dwelt amongst.  On the other
hand the Muslims amongst whom the Sephardim dwelt have no similar practices
around this time which centre very heavily on deprivation, or any history of
attacking particularly at this time.

But while the levels of depravation seems very normal when you live fully
within an Ashkenazi environment (even where, as in Australia, the non Jews
don't deprive themselves at all), once you live cheek by jowl with
Sephardim, and you see how they celebrate pesach, it doesn't really feel
like such a celebration any more, and somehow I can see pesach feeling more
akin to the three weeks and Tisha B'Av.  And once that feeling has lodged, I
it can be very hard to displace.  That I think, psychologically, is what is
driving a lot of this - Pesach starts feeling like a party to which you
haven't quite been invited, and yet you ought to have been invited.  And yet
on the other hand, those who wish to cling to pesach as it was practiced by
minhag avos, when it really was about deprivation, are struggling too -
because of how clever manufacturing and food producers are these days, so
those who want to practice it like it traditionally was have to keep finding
more and more things to ban to give that deprived feeling of really not
having anything one can satisfyingly eat for breakfast.  So while it may end
up being a clash of paradigms - the paradigm from the Ashkenazi side doesn't
feel as satisfying anymore and that is leading to all this vehemence within
the Ashkenazi community about how to deal with the new reality.  And the
Chacham Zvi/Rav Ya'akov Emden, who really were the only gaonim who grappled
with this dual living in modern times end up at the forefront of the debate.


>Akiva Miller

Shavuah Tov

Chana

so continuing our thinking, regular ice cream made by a G, even if it
contains small amounts (actually even large amounts as long as it's less
than 50%) of Kitniyos, and they Kitniyos is not visible notwithstanding
that it certainly TASTES of Kitniyos, is actually KLP.
If the company requests that a Hechsher be granted, that's ok, as we
explained from Reb Moshe.

However, a Yiddish brand may not use that recipe, according to those who
propose that BEFORE Pesach, Kitniyos are Assur since this constitutes Ein
Mevatlin Issur LeChatChila.
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