Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 43

Mon, 11 Mar 2013

• 1. Re: kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. HKB''H doesn't give a person... (Ben Samson)
• 3. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: Kitniyos Oil and Chamets Crumbs (Zev Sero)
• 6. mikraa kodesh (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Kitniyos Oil and Chamets Crumbs (Dr Isaac Balbin)
• 8. Who Brings the Chatos When BD Errs (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (David Riceman)
• 12. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (David Riceman)
• 13. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 14. Re: HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't pass (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Who Brings the Chatos When BD Errs (Micha Berger)

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> I would also point out that RMF explicitly states that using
> peanuts (or peanut oil) on Pesach depends on one's family
> minhag. As such (as far as I know) all Ashkenazi communties
> do not use corn or soya or their oils since corn is used for
> bread and soya is a bean. Even though these are not included
> in the original gezerah they were nevertheless accepted by
> minhag as kitniyot.

Can someone remind me what the difference is between peanuts and soybeans
in this regard? They are both beans, and (to my knowledge) both have become
widely used only fairly recently.

Am I mistaken? Is it possible that soybeans were well-known in Europe and already considered kitniyos there, which cannot be said of peanuts?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

This is a  totally wrong thing to say to  a person who r"l lost a
close relative.
It does not offer him,/her any nechama and in a sense, you are blaming
Hashem for the catastrophe. Rather say that HKB"H should
give  you the  strength to carry on. Or something else more positive.
Ben Samson

R' Joel Rich asked:

> I often hear people say  HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they
> can't "pass". Does anyone know of any original sources either
> way on the issue?

I have heard of the Eishes Yefas Toar given as an example of a test which
no one could pass. That is to say: A soldier in such a situation inevitably
will succumb to his desires and violate the woman.

I have also heard this same case used to disprove the claim: Now that
Hashem has taught us a specific procedure to use in such situations, the
soldier *will* be able to control himself.

The above comments are cute and inventive, but ultimately meaningless
unless we can explain or define what is meant by "passing" and "failing"
these "tests". R' Micha offered several tragic stories of people who
suffered severe mental trauma from the situations they were placed in. I
would suggest that this does not in any way constitute failure. Has a
mugging victim "failed" in some way? No, he has not, and emotional trauma
should be no different than physical.

Hakol biyedei shamayim, chutz m'yiras shamayim. Hashem controls everything
except the choices we make, and so success and failure can be judged only
on the choices we make. If a mugging victim has suffered a broken leg, his
inability to walk away must not brand him a failure; so too, if a victim of
emotional trauma finds certain things to be difficult or impossible, he
must not be held to blame for that. But there will be some choices,
*perhaps*, that he is in a position to make, and *that's* how Hashem will
judge his success or failure.

Never before have I found R' Micha's sig line so fitting:

> None of us will leave this place alive.
> All that is left to us is
> to be as human as possible while we are here.
> - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
1 Key Fat Loss Hormone?
Doctor Reveals 1 Hormone Making You Fat & How To Banish It Now.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/513d2e483c3092e48051cst03vuc

RJR:

<<I often hear people say HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't " 
pass". Does anyone know of any original sources either way on the issue?>>

One side: Ramban Parshas VaYera 22:1.

Other side: Hagaha L'brayysa d'Ma'aseh Torah #160, and Aderes Eliyahu on 
Balak, version 3; both cited in Hasdei Eliyah on Avos 5:4 (but I found 
neither source): "Ba'asarah nisyonos nisnaseh Bilam uvkulan lo hishgiah 
bahem".

David Riceman

On 10/03/2013 7:57 PM, Meir Rabi wrote:
>
> There are a number of rather important observations to note from this.
> 1)  The Rema and Mishne B have no problems with Kitniyos oils. Their
> concern is for the Kitniyos and Chamets substance and even that does
> not trouble them too much at all. One need take no precautions to
> prevent such substance from dripping into our food during Pesach.

Wrong.  These are the *additional* problems that one *might* have thought
would exist with oil that was made in chametz kelim, and might forbid even
a mixture, and therefore one would think that such oils may not even be
used for lighting on the same table as food, but in fact this is not the
case, and even such oils may be used for lighting.  They may *not* be eaten,
not because of the chametz kelim, but because the kitniyos themselves are
forbidden, and the oil is no better than what it was made from.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

> and also Mikra?ai Kodesh, Pesach II:60:2.

What sefer is this?  The only halacha sefer with that name I've heard of
is on Hil' Kri'as Hatorah.>>

A set by R Pesach Tzvi Frank on the Moadim. It is in my library - you are
welcome to come and learn from it

-- 
Eli Turkel
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> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:57:37 +1100
> From: Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
> To: "avo...@lists.aishdas.org" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: 
> Message-ID:
>    <CAG2PE9=jdqkddTSrSrbhsyD0QGpj-b4V5QRP9iDZyguhJpg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Kitniyos Oil
> 
> 
> There are a number of rather important observations to note from this.
> 1)  The Rema and Mishne B have no problems with Kitniyos oils. Their
> concern is for the Kitniyos and Chamets substance and even that does not
> trouble them too much at all. One need take no precautions to prevent such
> substance from dripping into our food during Pesach.

Is the implication here that you permit Kitniyos Oil Lechatchila?

The MB is writing B'Dieved, is he not?

R' Meir Rabi wrote:
"The Gemara and Poskim therefore explain that this person sinned in
erroneously thinking that it is a Mitzvah to follow BD?s Pesak even when BD
has erred.   But this person is mistaken.   It is wrong to follow BD when
we know they are wrong, even though they have considered our argument and
rejected it by an overwhelming majority."

This Gemara seems to contradict the Sifri that Rashi quotes on lo tasur
even when they say right is left you need to listen. The Gemara there in
Horayos states explicitly that if you know the Beis Din made a mistake you
are not allowed to listen. The Ramban in the Sefer Hamitzvos addresses this
and says that the gemara is only talking about where you didn't present
your arguments to the Beis Din Hagadol, but if you presented your arguments
to them and they rejected your arguments you need to listen to them
as the Sifri says even if you know they are wrong. I never understood this
Ramban as the Mishna states explicitly that this halacha applies to a
member of the Beis Din or a talmid. It is hard to imagine that
when the case was discussed the member of the Beis Din didn't present his
arguments and have them rejected.

BTW, R' Elchanan in Kuntres Divrei Sofrim has a completely new explanation
of this Gemara, teh Sifri and teh Yerushalmi which
answers the contradictions.
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I wrote:
> << (but I found neither source): "Ba'asarah nisyonos nisnaseh Bilam 
> uvkulan lo hishgiah bahem">>.
>
It's in Aderes Eliyahu Balak 22:30 Mahadura Tinyana (p. 382).  He 
doesn't cite a source in Hazal.

David Riceman

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 10:41:01AM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> I wrote:
>> << (but I found neither source): "Ba'asarah nisyonos nisnaseh Bilam  
>> uvkulan lo hishgiah bahem">>.
>>
> It's in Aderes Eliyahu Balak 22:30 Mahadura Tinyana (p. 382).  He  
> doesn't cite a source in Hazal.

And saying Bil'am didn't pass isn't saying that Bil'am /couldn't/ pass.
The question wasn't whether people fail nisyonos, but whether every
tragic event is a passable nisayon. But again, I think every *test*
Hashem gives us is passable, but for simple language resons. If Hashem
knows there is no "passing", it's not a test.

I think the fact that we have the term nisayon and the term yisurim means
that not every tragedy is necessarily a test. Aside from the fact that
we've all witnessed people who faced yisurim that cracked them. Are we
ready to label all such Holocaust stories (to pick an extreme example
for clarity) "failed nisyonos"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

RMB:

<<And saying Bil'am didn't pass isn't saying that Bil'am /couldn't/ pass.>>

You didn't look at the Ramban :"When God knows that a tzaddik will do 
His will He tests him, but he won't test the wicked who won't listen."

David Riceman

On 3/11/2013 10:41 AM, David Riceman wrote:
> I wrote:
>> << (but I found neither source): "Ba'asarah nisyonos nisnaseh Bilam 
>> uvkulan lo hishgiah bahem">>.
>>
Here's the other source:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20137&;st=&pgnum=62



David Riceman

On 3/10/2013 2:59 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
>
> I often hear people say  HKB"H doesn't give anyone a test they can't " 
> pass". Does anyone know of any original sources either way on the issue?
>
> KT
> Joel Rich
>
>
This is from the chapter on Trials and Tests in my sefer Daas Torah


    Suffering is not greater than ability to handle it

*Bereishis Rabbah*[i]*(32:3):*A potter does not test defective vessels 
because he cannot even give them even a single blow without breaking 
them. Similarly G-d does not test the wicked but only the righteous. 
When a flax worker knows that his flax is good then he knows that the 
more he beats it the more it improves. In contrast when he knows that it 
is poor quality he doesn't bother beating it because he knows it will 
simply split. Similarly G-d does not test the wicked but only the 
righteous. When a person has two cows one of which is strong and the 
other weak, obviously he puts the yoke on the strong one? Similarly G-d 
does not test the wicked but only the righteous.

*Kesubos*[ii]*(67a):*According to the camel is the load.

**Rashi*[iv]*(Kesubos 67a):**A camel is given a burden according to how 
strong it is.

*R' Saadiya Gaon*[iii]*(Emuna V'De'os 5:3):*The righteous suffer for two 
reasons. The first reason is that it is for the few sins they have 
committed... The second reason is that it a trial. G-d tests them when 
He knows that they will be able to endure the suffering. Afterwards he 
will reward them to compensate them for the undeserved suffering. G-d 
does not test a person who cannot endure it - because then it serves no 
purpose. The purpose in afflicting the righteous is in order that 
mankind should know that G-d did not choose them for nothing. Job and 
his suffering is an example of this second type of suffering. If the 
suffering is the result of sin then typically G-d will acknowledge that 
this is the reason - if He is asked. On the other hand if the suffering 
is because it is a trial - G-d typically does not acknowledge it. This 
we see from the response to Moshe's complaint "Why are you making it 
worse for this people." Similarly Job was not answered when he asked why 
he was suffering. This lack of explanation is necessary so that the 
suffering of the righteous should not be simply dismissed by the average 
man as merely a means for the tzadik of getting additional reward. And I 
say that even the completely innocent person is sometimes afflicted in 
order that he gets reward for it. This is obviously the case for the 
infant who suffers. I have no doubt that they will be compensated for 
their suffering. A wise person views suffering as the chastisement of a 
father by means of a beating or detention to keep his son from harm. It 
is comparable to the disgusting bitter medicine that a person takes to 
be cured. A person might ask why is this suffering necessary because G-d 
can give the good without the suffering? We answer him that good 
deservedly given as reward is better than receiving it out of kindness.

*
*



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On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 08:17:22PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
>
> *R' Saadiya Gaon*[iii]*(Emuna V'De'os 5:3):*The righteous suffer for two  
> reasons. The first reason is that it is for the few sins they have  
> committed... The second reason is that it a trial...

What about yisurim shel ahavah?

I once delineated 4 approaches to the tragic, paralleling the 4 sons
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2002/04/pesach-5761-the-four-son
s-confront-tragedy.shtml>
or <http://j.mp/XDHsWd>:

    ...
    This is the wise son's reaction. "Who is wise? He who learns from
    every person." The wise son is one who turns everything into a
    learning experience. His response to the seder is "What are the
    testimonial acts, the dictates, the laws, which Hashem our G-d
    commanded you?" How does G-d teach us to react to the events of
    Egypt and freedom? How am I supposed to react to tragedy?

    When G-d presents tragedy to the wise son, they are called nisyonos
    -- challenges or tests. Like the Akeidah, a learning experience for
    Abraham, to get him to fully realize his potential.

    The second son, the wicked son, needs a wake up call. What the gemarah
    refers to as "yisurim". In the weekday prayer "Tachanun" we ask G-d
    to forgive our sins "but not through yisurim or bad illness"....

    There is a second kind of yissurim, yissurim shel ahavah --
    tribulations of love. This is not where the person is being evil,
    but he's not living up to his full potential. He too is in a rut,
    and G-d calls to him to break out of it and improve. G-d calls him
    to ahavah, to greater love and closeness to G-d.

    This is the uncomplicated son, the one who believes with simple and
    pure faith. ...

    Similarly [to the ellided aggadic story], the person who is medically
    needy because that keeps him close to G-d. The person who, had
    he been healthy, would have been more distracted by the physical
    opportunities afforded him.

    This is the son who doesn't know how to ask. Unlike the wise son,
    who asks "How shall I respond?" or the son of uncomplicated, pure and
    simple faith, who asks "G-d, G-d, why have you forsaken me?" (Tehillim
    22:1) this son isn't asking anything. He isn't capable of grappling
    with this issue -- be it a tragedy, or be it the Exodus.
    ...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 08:37:04AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
:   For BD to bring a Chatos and exempt the people from their obligation to
: bring their own, we can only be astounded at the conditions that must be
: met. We can only be astounded at the enormity of the duty that HKBH places
: upon us as individuals to be responsible for the decisions we take and act
: upon.

The problem is that none of these criteria increase the masses'
culpability. Why should the tzibur be more guilty depending upon details
of court procedure they likely weren't privy to?

The other problem, to repeat again, is that a qorban for *shogegin* doesn't
necessarily imply they skipped a step they should have taken.

There is also the obvious issue that you're faulting people for not
trusting their own judgment over the pros. Unlike horios or zaqein
mamre, where the person doing the assessing /is/ one of the pros. I
find the entire premise we're debating unsustainable.

Until you explain whhy your line of reasoning doesn't do away with the
entire concept of pesaq and posqeiq, beis din or the authority of Shas,
I don't think I can understand it well enough to discuss it.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l


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