Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 17

Fri, 25 Jan 2013

• 1. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES6 (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Re: Can Eliyahu Hanavi decide halachic questions? (Lisa Liel)
• 3. Re: Can Eliyahu Hanavi decide halachic questions? (Marty Bluke)
• 4. Re: Can Elijah Hanavi decide halachic questions? (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Can Eliyahu Hanavi decide halachic questions? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Q&A: Isn't Wearing a Wig Over Hair Pointless? (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: Can Eliyahu Hanavi decide halachic questions? (Lisa Liel)
• 8. peirot haaretz (saul newman)
• 9. More on Additional Information for Tu B?Shevat (Prof. Levine)
• 10. wig over hair pointless? (Simi Peters)
• 11. What is the difference between a segulah and a superstition? (Prof. Levine)
• 12. If you implement a Triennial Torah reading cycle well, what about Simchat Torah? (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Insights Into Halacha: The Curious Case of the Karpef (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: Insights Into Halacha: The Curious Case of the Karpef (Harry Maryles)
• 15. Re: HKBH to Change His Mind, The Superiority of Commons Sense, LaMa LK (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Dispute Resolution (Micha Berger)

I just discovered a major typo in a recent post of mine:

R' Joel Rich had asked:

> What would the halacha be "back in the day" if I lived in a town
> where 80% of the dairy herds were owned by Jews and I found a
> recently filled container of raw milk in the street?  And what
> label would you put on it?

I had answered:

> I'm not sure what you mean by "back in the day". If you are
> referring to a situation where there is no government
> supervision, such as was the situation for thousands of years,
> then 80% would not suffice. Some poskim would allow such milk
> if 100% of the local dairies were Jewish, but even that was a
> machlokes.

That last line was supposed to read: Some poskim would allow such milk if
100% of the local dairies used only kosher animals for their milk supply,
but even that was a machlokes.

(My second paragraph there had references, and is correct as posted.)

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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On 1/21/2013 6:57 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> Recently in Daf Yomi (Shabbos 108a) the Gemara discussed whether 
> Tefillin can be written on the skin of a Tahor fish. Rav Nachman bar 
> Yitzchak says if Eliyahu will come and tell us that it is good then it 
> is kosher. The Gemara asks so what if Eliyahu tells us, Rashi explains 
> that Heter v'isur are not decided by Eliyahu because lo bashamayim 
> hee, in other words Eliyahu Hanavi cannot answer any halachic questions.
>
> How does this Gemara fit in with all of the places where we say that 
> Eliyahu Hanavi is going to answer our halachic questions, etc.?

Well, first off, Teiku doesn't have anything to do with Eliyahu.  It's 
Aramaic for "let it stand".  Teikum, properly, but that final mem often 
falls off.

I once heard from a rav in Israel that Eliyahu couldn't answer our 
halakhic questions, because if he did, we'd have to kill him as a navi 
sheker.  But that's if he uses nevua to answer them, or claims that he's 
doing so.  That's not the only option, though.  Eliyahu is a musmach.  
According to those who hold you can't renew smicha with a majority of 
the rabbis in Eretz Yisrael agreeing on someone, he's the only one 
alive.  As such, he would have tremendous authority as a sage.

There's a story in the Gemara about Moshe getting to see Rabbi Akiva's 
classroom, and getting all depressed because he couldn't follow what was 
going on.  Until he heard something described as Torah l'Moshe miSinai.  
And the reason for that is that he died millenia ago.  He couldn't 
follow, because the Torah grows and develops.  New questions arise that 
weren't even possible before.  But Eliyahu never died.  He's still 
around, and has more Torah knowledge than anyone on earth.  The Gemara 
asks "Sinai v'okeir harim, ma adif?"  And the answer is Sinai, because 
we need the raw information of Torah.  He's got it.

Lisa

R'n Lisa,

The Gemara in Shabbos seems to state Eliyahu's opinion has no halachic
weight period.
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Recently in Daf Yomi (Shabbos 108a) the Gemara discussed whether Tefillin
can be written on the skin of a Tahor fish. Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak says
if Eliyahu will come and tell us that it is good then it is kosher. The
Gemara asks so what if Eliyahu tells us, Rashi explains that Heter v'isur
are not decided by Eliyahu because lo bashamayim hee, in other words
Eliyahu Hanavi cannot answer any halachic questions.

How does this Gemara fit in with all of the places where we say that Eliyahu Hanavi is going to answer our halachic questions, etc.?
=========================
General answer-he can not paskin new halacha, he can clarify facts.
KT
Joel Rich
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On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 02:57:52PM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: How does this Gemara fit in with all of the places where we say that
: Eliyahu Hanavi is going to answer our halachic questions, etc.?

My understanding is that WRT halakhah, Eliyahu's return isn't significant
because he's a navi, but because he has true semichas Moshe. And therefore
we will be better equipped to restore the halachic process to its full
health. And then the answer will be decided, not told or discovered.

As for the meaning of teiqu: I agree with Lisa that peshat is that
the question stands. However, derash, repated by people with a much
firmer grasp of how halakhah is decided than she or I have, is
"Tishbi yetzareitz..." Which implies to me that while one can't say
this idea of Eliyahu answering the question isn't the meaning of
the word, I also wouldn't say the idea itself is untrue.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

R' Joel Rich asked:

> ... In terms of covering hair with a wig, the hair in the wig
> is not explicitly sexual as we already said, but at the same
> time it does create a barrier so that the actual, free-flowing
> hair of the woman is not available for public consumption. It's
> somewhat similar to wearing a t-shirt with flesh covered sleeves.
> As long as the material is opaque, wearing such a shirt is
> totally fine.

As I see it, the critical word in your formulation is "somewhat". Hair is
not sexual in the exact same way as arms are, in that the hair of a single
girl is mutar in ways that the arms of a married woman are not.

Therefore, it seems to me that there is room to say that for hair we have
only a technical requirement for the hair itself to be covered and not
seen, while that might not be sufficient for the arms. It could well be
that the arms not only must *be* covered, but that they must also *appear*
covered.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
One Trick to Stay Asleep
If you struggle to fall asleep, or stay asleep, try this&#8230
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On 1/21/2013 3:32 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> As for the meaning of teiqu: I agree with Lisa that peshat is that
> the question stands. However, derash, repated by people with a much
> firmer grasp of how halakhah is decided than she or I have, is
> "Tishbi yetzareitz..." Which implies to me that while one can't say
> this idea of Eliyahu answering the question isn't the meaning of
> the word, I also wouldn't say the idea itself is untrue.
>    

Whereas I, l'shitati, hold that a mistake is a mistake, even after 3000 
years.  The people who were cutting off the ends of the brisket before 
putting it in the pan because that's how their mother's did it don't 
have to continue doing it once they find out that it's because the pans 
were too small.  The fact that many Rishonim and Achronim never saw an 
olive in their lives and had to use a guestimate for kazayit doesn't 
mean that their views overrule the actual metziyut of an olive.

Lisa

http://www.jerusalemkoshernews.com/wp-content/uploads/Tu
-BShvat-5773-Landau-Hebrew.pdf
why did RBSO  give  7 minim , many of which  undoubtedly were never
 kosher? wasn't that a lifnei iver ?
the  gmara  talks about igulei dveila.  were those  treife products
reserved for sale to gentiles?
and benching on a date?  chas veshalom to eat  a product that is almost
uncheckable?
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Earlier today I referred people to 3 lists at http://tinyurl.com/az7dm85

One should keep the following in mind when it comes to lists like 
these.  One type of fruit may be fine in one locality but not in 
another.  These things depend on local conditions,  climate,  etc.

Yitzchok Levine 
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Nobody would want to run their fingers through your wig.

(I don't own one personally--never have--and use snoods or mitpahot, but a wig, even a very good one, ain't hair.)

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters 
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 From http://tinyurl.com/baf6c4h

Question:

What is the difference between a segulah and a superstition?

Answer:

Segulos are based on the Torah while superstitions are made up and are
often against the Torah's way.

Sometimes it's hard to know if something is a segulah that works according
to Chazal or not, so it's always best to rely only on Segulos that have
reliable sources in the Seforim or at least ones that were handed down
from generation to generation.

Jumping to follow every new "segulah" that appears on the scene without
verifying its authenticity is foolish. "Ain Segulah K'Torah, there is
no better Segulah than [learning and following the] Torah"

See Sefer Peleh Yoetz, Os Chof, Kibud Av V'Em where he writes: "...There
are people who spend large sums of money for the opportunity to do the
Mitzvah of opening the Aron Kodesh or to be a Sandek at a Bris and similar
things which are not biblical or Rabbinic Mitzvos rather just a good deed
(i.e. a Segulah)...yet every time one obeys their father and mother they
fulfill a huge biblical Mitzvah...[yet] fools give up this opportunity
[often for the lesser opportunities]and are punished"

----------
I would add the following that is from the article at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/hamodia/segulos.pdf that appeared
some time ago in the Hamodia Magazine.

The Mezhbuzher Rav, Harav Avraham Yehoshua Heshel Bick, shlita :

[Segulos ] are nothing more than bubbe maasos, eitzas yetzer hara that
give people a license to spend money way beyond their means and then ask
for a yeshuah. All these formulae ? saying Shir Hashirim forty times,
Tehillim HaChida, etc. ? are methods used by the yetzer hara to take
from us the little [spirituality] we have left.

Prayer, on the other hand, is not a segulah ; prayer is a way of
communicating with the Ribbono shel Olam. When we use segulos to get
what we want, its as if we are stealing something from Him, something
that is not rightfully ours. It reminds me of todays Chinese auctions at
charitable events. Whereas women used to give charity without ulterior
motives, they have now replaced their mitzvos with Chinese auctions.



Someone pointed out the following to me.

A segula costs money. superstition is free. >:-}


Yitzchok Levine

 From http://tinyurl.com/auxv4u2

I thought it would be interesting to post my rendering of the vote 
about whether or not to retain Simchat Torah in the Reform Synod at 
Frankfurt in 1845.

The background is, of course, that the Reform rabbis were trying to 
implement liturgical reforms, to modernize the services, to both 
attract people and avoid repelling them, and do it in a way that was 
consistent both in Reform theory and in practice. So in this, the 
second of three such assemblies, held in Frankfurt A.M.[1]  between 
July 15 and 28, 1845, many questions were discussed.

As part of the process of reforming, modernizing and streamlining 
services, the assembly had approved of implementing a Triennial cycle 
of reading the Torah. This would of course have the effect of 
shortening the Torah reading by one third which is something that 
people who look forward to Parshat Nitzavim can understand. Old 
sources showed that in ge'onic times (and later) the Torah was read 
and completed every three years, while our custom of reading it in 
one year, and celebrating Simchat Torah on the second day of Shemini 
Atzeret arose in Babylonia. The question therefore was, should 
Simchat Torah be celebrated only every three years? Or annually? Or 
at all? Here is what they said:

See the above URL for more. YL
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The well-known halacha of not carrying outside on Shabbos is based on 
the episode in this week's Parsha of several people attempting to 
gather the mun (manna) on Shabbos. That is why an Eruv is so 
important, as in certain circumstances it allows us to carry outside 
on Shabbos. But to create a proper Eruv, one must first have a basic 
understanding of the Karpef...

Read the full 
article 
"<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5070>Insights Into 
Halacha: <http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5070>The 
Curious Case of the Karpef".



I welcome your questions or comments by email.  For all of the Mareh 
Mekomos / sources, just ask.

"<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/>Insights Into 
<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/>Halacha" is a weekly 
series of contemporary Halacha articles for Ohr Somayach. If you 
enjoyed the article, please share it with friends and family. To sign 
up to receive weekly articles simply email me.

kol tuv,

Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim

<mailto:ysp...@ohr.edu>ysp...@ohr.edu



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--- On?Thu, 1/24/13, Prof. Levine?<llev...@stevens.edu>?wrote:

...to create a proper Eruv, one must first have a basic understanding of the?Karpef...

Read the full article?"?Insights Into Halacha:?The Curious Case of the Karpef".----------------------------------
That's funny... I have never heard it pronounced that way. To me it has always been Karfef, not Karpef.
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 



Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/


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On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 09:16:00AM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: In case it slipped under your radar,
: Moshe Rabbenu advised HKBH to identify Himself not as A Asher A but just as
: A.
: 
: Why? One problem at a time is enough for the Jewish People to deal with.
: 
: HKBH agreed.
: Rashi 3:14

HQBH wanted to give Moshe the opportunity to do the chessed of not piling
up our troubles. Obviously Hashem, who is above time, didn't change His
"Mind".

And this case too isn't one of halakhah. It's of direct revalation. Our
whole question began with my positing the idea that the sevara requires
knowing the facts of the halakhah and from that one extrapolats (with
their seikhel) new halakhah. A conflict between revalation and what we
feel to be moral from fundamental "ma desani lakh" empathy is still a
different topic.

And the Aqeida stands in contrast to your example, even in that
domain. Avraham knew HQBH didn't want human sacrifice, and knew He
wanted the Jews to come from Yitzchaq, but didn't stay his hand based
on those sevaros.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:53:51PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: how the Rishonim understand these concepts is breathtaking - IIUC
: shuda [d'dayna] runs from the judge should do his best to mirror his
: best guess at equity, to HKB"H doesn't care what the result is and
: the judge can do whatever he wants and feel good about it. Similarly
: IIUC kol [d'alim gvar] runs from its judges absenting themselves
: (and the litigants can arm wrestle till the cows come home) to a
: one time reflection of a court action based on assuming the "right"
: person will win. So let's start with an easy question. When HKB"H
: commanded the nations in dinim (courts), did he give them direction in
: dispute resolution or just say you figure it out any methodology you like?

I think the latter. I always understood the Noachide chiyuv in light of
Avos 3:2. Any system that keeps people from eting eachother alive would
fulfil the chiyuv.

To my mind, a bigger question would be WRT the Noachide issur of geneivah.
There it would seem that their legal contstructs to define ownership
ought to be less relevant than halakhah's definition of baalus. However,
since transfer of baalus too is based on expectation -- dina demalkhusa,
situmta -- perhaps by definition baalus would be transfered if ownership
in the sense they're thinking of is.

And it's possible that even hefqer BD hefqer, shuda dedaina and kol
de'alim gevar (which sounds much like "hamotzi meichaveiro") are also
instances of this linkage between ownership and expectation.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What we do for ourselves dies with us.
mi...@aishdas.org        What we do for others and the world,
http://www.aishdas.org   remains and is immortal.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Albert Pine


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