Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 14

Thu, 17 Jan 2013

• 1. Re: economy101 (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES (Saul Guberman)
• 4. CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES PART I (Prof. Levine)
• 5. IT IS WHEN YOU GIVE OF YOURSELF THAT YOU TRULY GIVE (cantorwolberg@cox.net)
• 6. Re: IT IS WHEN YOU GIVE OF YOURSELF THAT YOU TRULY GIVE (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES PART I (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES PART I (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES PART I (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES PART I (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES PART I (Zev Sero)
• 12. Practicing Jews Serving in the National Security Community (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: What is Mashal HaQadmoni? (Jonathan Baker)
• 14. Insights Into Halacha: Leeuwenhoek's Halachic Legacy (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Dispute Resolution (Rich, Joel)

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> I once saw an article from Haym Soloveitchik where he argued
> that there is a difference between OC/YD and CM. While no
> observant Jew would argue that one can drive a car on shabbat
> because life changes that the rabbis during the ages did indeed
> change monetary laws (either directly or by reinterpreting old
> ones) to make them fit the conditions of that society.

Warning: Having learned almost no Choshen Mishpat at all, you are advised
not to put much weight on my thoughts on this topic. Nevertheless, I can't
help pointing out how very important Minhag Hakom is for Choshen Mishpat.
"Kinyanim" which would seem to have absolutely no validity based on one's
Gemara study, suddenly carry severe implications simply because the general
society considers it to be a valid transaction.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
One Trick to Stay Asleep
If you struggle to fall asleep, or stay asleep, try this&#8230
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50f53da839ba63da73478st03vuc

........................................While there are prominent
poskim who allow drinking chalav stam in the United States and one is
permitted to rely on their ruling, the vast majority of poskim do not
agree with this leniency. According to the majority opinion, therefore,
chalav stam is not merely a chumrah but is strictly forbidden.



Which stringency is more important to observe -- the stringency of eating
only yashan products and refraining from chadash or the stringency of
eating only chalav Yisrael products and refraining from chalav stam?

Eating only chalav Yisrael and avoiding chalav stam is more important,
even though chadash is a biblical prohibition while chalav akum is not.
Whether or not chadash is forbidden nowadays outside of Eretz Yisrael
where the fields are owned by non-Jews, is an age-old dispute among
the early authorities with no clear consensus reached. Indeed, most
European Jews did not refrain from eating chadash, in keeping with
the ruling of the more lenient opinions concerning chadash outside
of Eretz Yisrael. Those who are lenient about chadash, therefore,
are following a long-standing tradition based on the opinion of early,
classic poskim. The leniency to drink chalav stam, on the other hand,
is different. There is no long-standing tradition to permit it, as
chalav stam was not available in Europe. It was always assumed and
accepted by all poskim that unless a Jew was present at the milking,
the milk was forbidden. It is only recently in the United States,
where some prominent poskim ruled that we may rely on U.S. government
regulation to permit milk that was not supervised by a Jew, that chalav
stam became an option. This controversial ruling does not have the same
halachic force as a ruling based on a centuries-old tradition, and thus
chalav Yisrael is the more important stringency to observe.
=============================================================
The juxtaposition is ironic - the argument against chalav hacompanies
(assumedly chalav stam really means no supervision at all)  is really one
to an extent of chadash assur min hatorah (when juxtaposed against
"halachic force as a ruling based on a centuries-old tradition".  Is R'
Moshe (I guess the author of this piece didn't think it would have halachic
import to state that this "controversial ruling" was by the "poseik hador",
nor am I sure who was included in the sample of "the vast majority of
poskim" and whether it was weighted by minyan or binyan)  really so
difficult to rely on?  Given that chalav hacompanies was not available in
Europe, is this saying that any new situation must by definition be decided
lchumra?  In addition the IIRC the halachic case for chumrah by chadash is
much more convincing, maybe there were practical reasons requiring kulah
which no longer exist?	There's much to be gleaned about the approach to
the halachic process here.

I'd like to raise a separate question - what if one is taking tzedaka
(either cash or commodities)  Does one have the right, and does the Gabbai
have to comply, to demand chalav yisrael  if it means others will go
hungry?  In a macro sense isn't that what happens today (certainly if one
includes scholarship funds)?
KT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:46 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>
> CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES
>
> The following questions were posed to Rav Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan of Agudath
> Israel in Chicago at a kashrus symposium in Detroit on December 30,
> 2012. Some of the answers below have been edited and modified to reflect
> the position of the Vaad Harabbonim of Greater Detroit.
>


Can someone explain why/how Detroit had the Dayan come in to give what
seems to be a halacha l'maaseh shiur and then the Vaad changes the
answers.   Can you do this even with the disclaimer?  I would think that
the Dayan's  opinions would be stated and then the Vaad would have to say
we do not follow that way.  How else do you know what the Dayan actually
said?

Can you sponsor a halacha l'maaseh shiur that does not follow the community
standards?  Is that livnie ever?
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From yesterday's Hakhel email bulletin

CONTEMPORARY KITCHEN ISSUES

PART I

The following questions were posed to Rav Shmuel Fuerst, Dayan of Agudath
Israel in Chicago at a kashrus symposium in Detroit on December 30,
2012. Some of the answers below have been edited and modified to reflect
the position of the Vaad Harabbonim of Greater Detroit.



May a housewife have a non-Jewish cleaning lady clean her kitchen if no
frum person is at home?

It is never a good idea to allow a person who does not keep kosher?Jewish
or not?to have free access to your kitchen. It is quite common for a
cleaning lady to bring her own non-kosher food into your kitchen and
use your oven or microwave to warm it up, or use your kosher utensils
to stir or serve her non-kosher food. Even if the cleaning lady does not
bring her own food into your home, there remains the likelihood that she
will prepare something for herself in your kitchen in a manner which will
render your oven, pots, pans or dishes non-kosher. Mixing meat and milk
together, transgressing the laws of bishul akum or gaining access to
unsealed meat and fish are just some of the things that could go wrong
when a kitchen is accessed by an individual who is not knowledgeable
or reliable concerning kashrus. Whenever possible, such a person should
not be left in your kitchen unsupervised.

In the event that this truly cannot be avoided, there are a number of
safeguards that can be instituted to lessen the likelihood of making
your kitchen non-kosher. First and foremost, the cleaning lady must
be told in no uncertain terms that she may not bring any of her own
food into the house, nor may she cook, bake or warm any food in the
kitchen?not for herself or for anyone else. The slightest infraction of
this rule will result in her immediate dismissal. Secondly, all unsealed
food which cannot be clearly identified as kosher, e.g., meat, chicken,
skinned fish, cheese or wine, should either be resealed or stored under
lock and key. Thirdly, the microwave oven should be sealed with a tamper
proof seal. In addition, one of the following two procedures must be
implemented:

1. A neighbor or a relative must drop in at random times throughout the
day to check up on the cleaning lady. The cleaning lady should be told
in advance that someone will be checking up on her.

2. A video camera must be installed to monitor the kitchen area. The
cleaning lady should be told that a camera is operating at all times. The
tape should be periodically reviewed to verify that no cooking, baking
or warming has taken place anywhere in the kitchen and that no outside
food has been brought in.

In the event that the above precautions were not followed and a cleaning
lady was left alone in the kitchen without any supervision, a Rav should
be consulted to decide the status of the kitchen appliances, pots and
pans, and dishes. Depending on the exact circumstances, the Rav may decide
that nothing at all needs to be done and everything in the kitchen remains
kosher, or he may decide that the ovens must be koshered, and that the
pots and dishes?or at least some of them?may not be used for 24 hours.

A related question arises when a wife needs to step out for a few hours,
but does not wish to leave her kitchen unsupervised while the cleaning
lady is working there. May she ask her husband to remain at home to
supervise the cleaning lady? Depending on the circumstances, that may
entail a gross violation of the laws of yichud or other restrictions
pertaining to modesty and purity. Cases such as these, ostensibly
commonplace and innocuous, do, in fact, have to be carefully weighed
and balanced and, if necessary, presented to a Rav for a ruling



If a microwave was mistakenly used for both meat and dairy dishes,
what could be done?

It is forbidden to use the same microwave to warm or cook both dairy
and meat if both the dairy and meat dishes are uncovered. It is strongly
recommended not to use the same microwave for meat and dairy even if one
is careful to keep all of the food covered while being cooked or warmed.
One should make every effort to get two separate microwave ovens and
designate one for meat and the other for dairy.

In the event that uncovered dairy food was heated in a meat microwave or
vice-versa, the microwave is considered not-kosher, especially if there
was a substantial amount of liquid in the food being warmed. Whether
or not the microwave can be koshered is a subject of debate among
contemporary poskim: Some hold that it can be koshered using a modified
hagalah procedure, which entails scrubbing the roof, walls and turntable
of the microwave clean, waiting twenty-four hours, placing a cup of
water inside the microwave and heating it for 5-10 minutes until thick
steam fills the oven. If the food being warmed touched the turntable
directly (without a plate or napkin in between) then the turntable
should be koshered through hagalah in hot water. Other poskim, however,
are wary of koshering a microwave using this procedure. The practical
halachah will depend on the specific details of the case which should
be presented to a Rav for a ruling.



If an item is labeled DE, may it be eaten in a fleischig meal?

An item which is labeled DE means that pareve food was processed on
hot equipment that was previously used for dairy and no koshering took
place between the dairy run and the pareve run. [Sometimes, DE means
that the pareve product was processed on dairy equipment which was not
totally clean of dairy residue.] There is no way for the consumer to
tell whether or not the dairy equipment was ben yomo at the time the
pareve food was processed or not. Therefore, we are careful not to eat
any DE products together with meat or chicken, since it is forbidden
LeChatchila to eat meat or chicken together with pareve foods that were
processed in hot ben yomo dairy equipment. It is, however, permitted to
eat DE products after eating meat or chicken, even during the same meal,
and even without cleaning ones mouth in between.



If onions cut with a clean meaty knife are ground in a food processor,
does the food processor become meaty?

The answer to this question is a matter of dispute. Some poskim hold
that the absorbed meaty taste that was transferred into the onion from
the meaty knife is further transferred into the blades of the food
processor, thus rendering the blades of the food processor meaty. Other
poskim disagree and maintain that the taste cannot be transferred further
and the food processor remains pareve. Although LeChatchila one should
avoid this problem by taking care to cut onions with a pareve knife or
by designating a food processor for meaty items only, when necessary,
one may rely on the lenient poskim who rule that the processor does not
lose its pareve status.

I saw the following beautiful vort with no attribution:

"How many Children of Israel were there in the desert? Moshe did not quite 
know. They needed to be numbered. Therefore, when each one gave the 
same silver half shekel, these gifts were counted and thus the number was
known. The Torah means to say that we are counted by what we give, NOT
by what we take."  

This reminds me of what one rabbi wrote regarding what happens when we
die. He wrote that The Almighty is not going to ask to see your material worth;
but He IS going to ask for your receipts.
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On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 09:38:49AM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: I saw the following beautiful vort with no attribution:
: "How many Children of Israel were there in the desert? Moshe did not quite 
: know. They needed to be numbered. Therefore, when each one gave the 
: same silver half shekel, these gifts were counted and thus the number was
: known. The Torah means to say that we are counted by what we give, NOT
: by what we take."  

R/L/D Jonathan Sacks has a related thought in his "Covenant &
Conversation" parashah sheet for Ki Sisa 5770 <http://j.mp/UNNv5W> or
<http://www.chiefrabbi.org/2010/03/06/covena
nt-conversation-5770-ki-tissa-counting-the-contributions>

    This week's sedra begins with a strange command:

        When you take a census [literally, "when you lift the head"]
        of the Israelites to determine their number, each one is to
        give to the Lord an atonement offering for his life when they
        are counted,so that they will not be stricken by plague when
        they are counted. (Exodus 30: 12)

    Evidently, it is dangerous to count Jews. This is confirmed by an
    episode in II Samuel 24...

    If only by way of midrash, and with no suggestion that this is
    the plain sense of the verse, there is another possibility. Why do
    nations normally take a census of their population? To establish
    their strength...

    That is why it is dangerous to count Jews. We are a tiny people. The
    late Milton Himmelfarb once wrote that the total population of Jews
    throughout the world is smaller than a small statistical error in the
    Chinese census. We are a fifth of a per cent of the population of the
    world: by any normal standards too small to be significant. Nor is
    this true only now. It was then. In one of his concluding addresses
    in Deuteronomy, Moses said:

        The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because
        you were more numerous than other peoples, for you are the fewest
        of all peoples. (Deuteronomy 7:7).

    The danger in counting Jews is that if they believed, even for a
    moment, that there is strength in numbers, the Jewish people would
    long ago have given way to despair.

    How then do you estimate the strength of the Jewish people? To this
    the Torah gives an answer of surpassing beauty. Ask Jews to give,
    and then count their contributions. Numerically we are small, but in
    terms of our contributions to civilization and humankind, we are vast.

    ...


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

I don't know why this a contemporary issue. Jews have had non-Jewish 
servants for generations. Someone was coming in at random interval to 
check on them?

Ben

On 1/15/2013 5:02 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> 1. A neighbor or a relative must drop in at random times throughout the
> day to check up on the cleaning lady. The cleaning lady should be told
> in advance that someone will be checking up on her.
>
> 2. A video camera must be installed to monitor the kitchen area. The
> cleaning lady should be told that a camera is operating at all times. The
> tape should be periodically reviewed to verify that no cooking, baking
> or warming has taken place anywhere in the kitchen and that no outside
> food has been brought in.

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 08:36:36PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> I don't know why this a contemporary issue. Jews have had non-Jewish  
> servants for generations. Someone was coming in at random interval to  
> check on them?

Maybe nothing as distrustful as hanging around only to check on them.
(Although maybe yes.)

But more likely, it was rare for people to be away from their home
with guarantees of not coming in mid-day. It's not like 9-5 jobs were
necessarily commonplace, even among people wealthy enough to own
staff.

Also, judging from incidentals in rabbi stories, hiring poor Jews was
more common.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas HaOlam

On 15/01/2013 1:36 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> I don't know why this a contemporary issue. Jews have had non-Jewish
> servants for generations. Someone was coming in at random interval
> to check on them?

Yes.  It was extremely uncommon for the women of the household to be out,
so there was always someone either in the kitchen or near enough to come
in at any moment.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 15/01/2013 1:36 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> I don't know why this a contemporary issue. Jews have had non-Jewish
> servants for generations. Someone was coming in at random interval
> to check on them?

Yes.  It was extremely uncommon for the women of the household to be out,
so there was always someone either in the kitchen or near enough to come
in at any moment.
- 
Zev Sero               
==========================================================
I would imagine this is a question for historians of a particular bent, but
I note that we have at least anecdotal evidence (e.g.  the chofetz chaim's
wife ran a store, assumedly outside of the home)?
KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

On 15/01/2013 6:10 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> Zev Sero

>> Yes.  It was extremely uncommon for the women of the household to be out,
>> so there was always someone either in the kitchen or near enough to come
>> in at any moment.

> I would imagine this is a question for historians of a particular bent,
> but I note that we have at least anecdotal evidence (e.g.  the chofetz
> chaim's wife ran a store, assumedly outside of the home)?

1. I don't know whether that's a safe assumption.  Actually, if it was a
shop rather than a market stall, then I think it far more likely that it
was in the family home, as most shops used to be until very recently (and
many still are).  Owning two properties would surely make them rich.

2. In any case it was very unusual.  The kesuba arrangement, of the husband
supporting the wife, was the norm.



-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

 From http://tinyurl.com/as8gb55

Writing in the 5761 (2001) issue of the journal 
Techumin, Rabbi Yehuda Zoldan addressed a 
question that confronted the increasing number of 
Orthodox Jews who had entered the Israeli Foreign 
Service: Were there any ways in which some of the 
halakhic strictures normally imposed on those 
having contacts with non-Jews could be mitigated 
in the interests of service to the State? Since 
the article?s appearance, the issue has become a 
salient one for American Orthodox Jews as well. 
Practicing Jews can now be found in the uppermost 
levels of the U.S. Government, including the 
national security departments?State, Defense, 
Treasury?as well as the National Security Council 
and the Intelligence Community, not to mention 
Senator Joseph Lieberman, whose tenure included 
membership in both the Armed Services and 
Homeland Security Committees, serving as chairman of the latter.

For many, if not all of these Jewish national 
security officials, questions arise beyond those 
confronting their Israeli counterparts, for whom 
allowances are made by foreign countries 
precisely because they are not citizens of those 
countries. To what extent does halakha permit a 
Jewish official to sidestep normative rabbinic 
law and tradition? Is there any latitude with 
respect to biblical laws (d?Oraita)?

See the above URL for more.  YL
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From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
 
> On Jan 11, 2013 3:18 AM, "David Riceman" <drice...@optimum.net> wrote:
> >> Rashi cites Meshal haQadmoni, but I never thought too much about what
> >> that source is. Today, I stimbled across the following page
 
> > Aren't they both citing Shmuel 1 24:13 (see Rashi ad. loc.)?
 
> Yes, but I hadn't realized that MhQ was a book.

Ah. An artist friend issued a fancy edition (he designed the type,
his wife, a well-known historian, edited the text, the illustrations
came from a 16th-century edition) many years ago, so I knew about
the book.

http://www.5plus5gallery.com/book.php?book_id=41
 
--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjba...@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

With Tu B'Shvat just around the corner, a common 
concern abounds regarding checking the fruits for 
"unwanted visitors". But what constitutes an 
insect? Am I required to use a magnifying glass 
or microscope to ascertain insects?

Read the full article to find out? 
"<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5043>Insights 
Into Halacha: 
<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5043>Leeuwenhoek's 
Halachic <http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5043>Legacy".

I welcome your questions or comments by 
email.  For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask.

kol tuv,

Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim

<mailto:ysp...@ohr.edu>ysp...@ohr.edu



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Jewish Jurisprudence contains a number of methods of "commercial" dispute
resolution (whose initial source is unclear) when an unambiguous verdict is
unattainable Of particular interest to me are shuda d'dayna (judicial
discretion) and kol d'alim gvar (might makes right) which are applicable in
differing specific factual circumstances. The differences in how the
Rishonim understand these concepts is breathtaking - IIUC shuda runs from
the judge should do his best to mirror his best guess at equity, to HKB"H
doesn't care what the result is and the judge can do whatever he wants and
feel good about it . Similarly IIUC kol runs from its judges absenting
themselves (and the litigants can arm wrestle till the cows come home) to a
one time reflection of a court action based on assuming the "right" person
will win. So let's start with an easy question. When HKB"H commanded the
nations in dinim (courts), did he give them direction in dispute resolution
or just say you figure it out a
 ny methodology you like?
KT
Joel Rich

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