Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 8

Tue, 08 Jan 2013

• 1. Re: non-existent midrashim (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Nittel, Torah, Maharal, Mezuzos, Perversion, Corrosion (Micha Berger)
• 3. Nittel, Torah, Maharal, Mezuzos, Perversion, Corrosion (Meir Rabi)
• 4. Re: seen on Facebook (Meir Shinnar)
• 5. non-existent midrashim (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: Shituf (was: seen on Facebook) (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: Shituf (was: seen on Facebook) (Meir Shinnar)
• 8. Re: non-existent midrashim (menucha)
• 9. Re: Uvnucho Yomar (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Shituf (was: seen on Facebook) (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Uvnucho Yomar (Allan Engel)
• 12. Re: What date was the Torah given? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Hasagat Gevul of a bus company (Arie Folger)
• 14. Menasheh and Efrayim, or Efrayim and Menasheh? (Akiva Miller)
• 15. Onaas Devarim and the Pushy Shnorrer (Micha Berger)

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Daniel Eidensohn <yadmo...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On 1/6/2013 5:23 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>> It turns out that some midrashim that we all "know" either have no none
>> source or a very obscure source
...
>> 1)The Jews in Egypt did not change their names, their language or their
>> clothing - no none source

>> the general psak today is that one can indeed wear clothing from the
>> goyim as long as it has a purpose

...
> Midrash Rabbah - Leviticus XXXII:5 R. Huna stated in the name of Bar
> Kappara: Israel were redeemed from Egypt on account of four things, viz.
> because they did not change their names, they did not change their
> language, they did not go tale-bearing, and none of them was found to have
> been immoral....

this midrash doesnt mention not changing their clothing

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 03:43:20AM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: Of course I said no such thing. This type of distortion to discredit my
: argument is just a mechanism employed to create confusion, a diversion, and
: move the discussion away from its focus, because my analysis is
: incontrovertible.

Look up "ad absurdum".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

If I required any evidence that my reasoning was powerful, on target and
unassailable, I could not have asked for better than the proof that was
presented to show that I am wrong; which goes something like this -  Meir
Rabi is wrong because according to him the Maharal wants an ignoramus to
decide Halacha, based on his own reading of the Gemara, rather than seeking
guidance from a Posek.

Of course I said no such thing. This type of distortion to discredit my
argument is just a mechanism employed to create confusion, a diversion, and
move the discussion away from its focus, because my analysis is
incontrovertible.

There is no doubt that adding the names of angels to the Mezzuzah is a
perversion. There is little doubt that using names of angels even far away
from the Mezuzah or any other sacred or Jewish flavoured object, is also a
perversion. It disgusted the RaMBaM and made him fear for the future of
those who were addicted to these sorceries. [White chooks for Kapporos,
requires its own Kapporo, NeBech] And the adoption of these practices is
understood to be a contaminant within Yiddishkeit and is tolerated with
great reluctance and revulsion, with an understanding that they will be
eventually excised. Heaven forbid that one should suggest that these are
now part of our Mesorah. Such ideas make a terrible concession that erodes
the core of Yiddishkeit, that erodes the principle of TT Kenegged Kulam. Is
Torah a game that we can play with and shape into whatever suits us?

Where is the clear delineation between Halalcha and Torah on the one hand
and Kabbalah on the other? In the minds of a few Poskim? We are shaping the
mindscape of the HaMon Am, including many if not most BeNey Torah; they
presume that without the Kabbalistic formulations on the outside of the
Mezuzh it is Passul. They would have it fixed. They would not leave it on
their door.

Whether an individual has or has no problem with Yidden not learning on
Nittel Nacht is an irrelevancy to this discussion. Whether it is Shas
Yidden who don?t learn or plain folk, the message being broadcast is tragic
and corrosive. Violation of this Biblical command is justified because we
are feeding the SitraAchra. As though HKBH is incapable of ensuring that
when we follow His commandments no evil should eventuate from our loyalty.

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Posters all seem to think it is clearly issues of avoda Zara.

However, there is a major (? Dominant) strand of halachic thinking that
does not view Christianity as avoda Zara for nonJews - with the specific
issues being dealt with are actions of the Jew that  reinforce the gentile
in his belief - and that would be forbidden if it was truly avoda zara( eg,
making him swear by Jesus,, selling him a round his holidays, etc.  why is
this different? It isn't my own acceptance of the beliefs -but enabling his
practice of his own beliefs....

I w old add that  what is strange to me is that from the Christian viewpoint, why would they want sacraments from a nonbeliever..

In a hospital setting , when calling for a chaplain, one typically gets the
one on call, who is expected to console and counsel patient & family,
as well as offer generic prayers, but if there is an issue of Christian
rites, they normally get a Christian minister...

The army is one area where it is more difficult to get adequate staffing of
all faiths at the front, so I'm assuming this question has come up in the
past for army chaplains, and wonder what the responses have been

Meir Shinnar

Sent from my iPad

<<Alsheich brings this in Tehilim 31.  He starts off with the words
"Veamru Rabboteinu z"l...."

It would be more humble of us to call this thread "midrashim which we
are unfamiliar with" >>

Again the Alsheich does not give an actual source.  If one searches the
internet one finds that the story is quoted by many, always with the phrase
"the rabbis said" (or something similar) without an actual; source.

I still claim that the first source for this story is a little known
(unfamiliar) medieval midrash.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 1/7/2013 10:15 AM, Meir Shinnar wrote:
> Posters all seem to think it is clearly issues of avoda Zara.
>
> However, there is a major (? Dominant) strand of halachic thinking that does not view Christianity as avoda Zara for nonJews

I don't think this is true.  There's a common strand of thought among 
people in general that says this, based on a complete misunderstanding 
of what shituf means, but any halakhic sources that go along with that 
are few and far between.

I don't have time to marshall sources, but the sources are quite numerous
and major.  Whether the later sources truly understand Christianity, and
whether the tosafot on which they are based was meant that expansively can
be debated - but one can't deny  the existence of such a major strand
Sources in a week
Meir Shinnar

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 7, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:

> On 1/7/2013 10:15 AM, Meir Shinnar wrote:
>> Posters all seem to think it is clearly issues of avoda Zara.
>> 
>> However, there is a major (? Dominant) strand of halachic thinking that does not view Christianity as avoda Zara for nonJews
> 
> I don't think this is true.  There's a common strand of thought among
> people in general that says this, based on a complete misunderstanding
> of what shituf means, but any halakhic sources that go along with that
> are few and far between.
> 
> 

The fact that the Alsheich does not quote his source does not mean that 
he did not see one.  I doubt he found this midrash on the 
internet...........
I still maintain that we should call this thread "midrashim for which we 
do not know the original source"
menucha

Eli Turkel wrote:

> <<Alsheich brings this in Tehilim 31.  He starts off with the words
> "Veamru Rabboteinu z"l...."
>
> Again the Alsheich does not give an actual source.  If one searches 
> the internet one finds that the story is quoted by many, always with 
> the phrase "the rabbis said" (or something similar) without an actual; 
> source.
>

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From: "Akiva Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>

In every  siddur I've looked at (Edot Hamizrach excepted), the printed 
instructions  clearly state that Uv'nucho Yomar is to be said while placing the 
Sefer Torah  back into the Aron. But in recent years, I have become more and 
more aware of  people who simply say it immediately after the preceding 
paragraph, regardless  of the location of the Sefer Torah....

Akiva Miller

 
 
>>>>>
 
Just as a point of interest, about half of us do not have any way of even  
knowing WHERE the Sefer Torah is, and we just say Uv'nucho Yomar when we 
guess  it should be said or when we hear other people saying it.  In MO shuls 
they  all sing together, so there's a clue.  In my yeshivish Litvish  
shtibel, it's every man for himself, murmur murmur.
 
Oh and every woman.   Yes, when I speak of those who have no way  of 
knowing where the ST is, I refer to those of us who daven behind the  mechitza, 
where you fellows are free to forget about us altogether.
 
But to give a more serious answer to the question of when to say Uv'nucho  
Yomar, I don't think "while placing the Sefer Torah" has to be taken so  
literally.  "Round about the time the Sefer Torah is placed in the aron" is  
obviously close enough.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
=============


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:> On 1/7/2013 10:15 AM, Meir Shinnar wrote:
:>> However, there is a major (? Dominant) strand of halachic thinking
:>> that does not view Christianity as avoda Zara for nonJews

: On Jan 7, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:
:> I don't think this is true. There's a common strand of thought among
:> people in general that says this, based on a complete misunderstanding
:> of what shituf means, but any halakhic sources that go along with that
:> are few and far between.

On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 02:19:48PM -0500, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: I don't have time to marshall sources, but the sources are quite
: numerous and major....

Coincidentally (if your beliefs about hashgachah allows room for that
idea), R' Neustadt, the Yosheiv Rosh of the Vaad haRabbanim of Detroit
just had a shiur on this posted to Torah.org.
<http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5772/bo.html>. To quote
his description of this machloqes:
    Although the Rambam rules unequivocally that Christians are
    idol-worshipers[3], other Rishonim[4] are more tentative. Their
    view is based on the assumption that non-Jews are considered
    idol-worshipers only if they totally reject the existence of
    G-d. Christianity, however, combines the belief in G-d with other
    idolatrous and alien beliefs. Such a theology is called avodah zarah
    b'shituf (in combination). Some poskim rule that avodah zarah b'shituf
    is not considered full-fledged avodah zarah[5], while others maintain
    that it is[6].

    3. Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 11:7. The line in the Rambam referring
    to Christians was censored. It appears in its entirety, however,
    in the Frankel edition of the Rambam. See also Rambam Hilchos Avodah
    Zarah 9:4, and Hilchos Teshuvah 3:8 for a similar ruling.

    4. Tosafos, Sanhedrin 63b in the name of Rabbeinu Tam; Meiri, Avodah
    Zarah 2a and 6b.

    5. Rama, O.C. 156 according to Pischei Teshuvah, Y.D. 147:2;
    Mor u'Ketziah 224; Sho'el u'Meishiv, Tanina 1:51; Seder Mishnah,
    Yesodei ha-Torah 1:7.

    6. Noda b'Yehudah, Tanina, Y.D. 148; Sha'ar Efrayim 24, quoting the
    Chelkas Mechokek; Peri Megadim, Y.D. 65:45; Teshuvos Chasam Sofer,
    O.C. 84. See Mishnah Berurah 304:4.

(If you go to the web page, you'll see he raises issues other than shituf
as well.)

Lemaaseh, an informal survey on 47th Street led me to conclude that most
of the Jews who sell necklace pendants in NY's Diamond Exchange rely on
Tosafos to sell crosses.

Notice though that shituf is not an alternative concept to AZ. Rather,
it's a type of AZ that is permissable to Benei Noach. For a Jew to
perform the rite to accomodate a Ben Noach would be assur, because for
the Jew AZ beshituf is still within the issurim of AZ.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Uv'nucho Yomar should be said when the ST is at rest. For the same reason,
Vayehi Binso'a should be said when it's moving


On 6 January 2013 04:30, Akiva Miller <kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:

> In every siddur I've looked at (Edot Hamizrach excepted), the printed
> instructions clearly state that Uv'nucho Yomar is to be said while placing
> the Sefer Torah back into the Aron.
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On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 10:20:48PM +1100, Joe Slater wrote:
: The reason we are unsure of the date of Matan Torah is that everyone other
: than Moshe was unsure of it. The mitzva of kiddush hachodesh was given in
: Egypt, but subsequent new moons fell when the Jews were protected by the
: ananei hakavod ("clouds of glory")....
:                 but what would kiddush hachodesh mean at that point in
: time? There was no Sanhedrin and therefore no need for a vote; there was no
: Mishkan at the time in which to offer the musafin...

I suggested something similar, that because there was no nafqa mina yet
to knowing the calendar, the masses didn't know the date beshe'as maaseh.
It's not that we forgot the date of Maamud Har Sinai, but that we never
recorded it.

Certainly if the OP feels that "Kuzari Proof" type reasoning is involved,
reducing the number of observers from the millions to a small number
would be sufficient. (I won't comment further; y'all should know by now
my skepticism about that particular "proof".)

But I think there was a Sanhedrin (pardon the anachronistic language).
The 70 zeqeinim stood out even back in Mitzrayim. They were allowed to
approach Har Sinai further than the rest of Benei Yisrael, and in fact
they (and not the rest of BY) had a Merkavah-like vision. So there /was/
a well-defined Sanhedrin.

And a mitzvah that would obligate them to send two people (perhaps two
of their number) beyond the ananim long enough to check for the molad.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Dear Ovedim,

Pitchei Choshen Geneiva veOnaah pg. 269 wonders whether a cabbie may
solicit customers from a bus stop. Is it like recruiting customers from a
competitor's store, which is prohibited? One argument in favor of allowing
it - which, in my opinion, is unconvincing - is that bus stops are not like
store, but merely convenient place markers for customers to know where they
can flag a bus.

However, I can two other possible distinctions that might make the practice
permissible, though I am unsure.
1) the product taxi ride and the product bus ride are fundamentally
different services, even though both are subsets of the product ride or
transportation. Thus, it's like someone peddling watermelons ina store
selling carrots. This would still prohibit private bus operators from
picking up customers (e.g. Mehadrin lines?).
2) some bus stops are served by several companies, those are more like a
marketplace and less like a store, so that should be permissible. Other
kind of bus stops might however remain off limits.

Or is the comparison fundamentally flawed, and are bus stops unlike stores?
If so, why?

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Schnellkurs im j?dischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)
* Warum beschneiden Juden ihre Knaben ? Multimedia-Vortrag
* Beschneidung, die aktuelle Rechtslage ? Multimedia Schiur
* Was mir in Holocaust Museen fehlt
* Beschneidungslerntag ? Schlu?worte (Multimedia)
* Paneldiskussion zur Beschneidung ? Audio-Datei
* Welche B?nde gibt es zwischen Mensch und G?tt? (Multimedia)
* R?ckblick Gedenkfeier F?rstenfeldbruck
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Much is made of the fact that in Vaichi 48:14, Yaakov Avinu gives
preference to Efraim by placing his right hand on Efraim's head. But I
noticed that this comment might have been made earlier. 

In Vayigash 46:20, Yosef's children are listed by the Narrator as "Menasheh
and Efrayim". Nothing unusual about that sequence; it is, after all, the
order of their birth. So too, in Vaichi 48:1, Yosef brings his sons to
Yaakov, and again they are listed by the Narrator: "Menasheh and Efrayim".

However, in 48:5, when Yaakov announces that each of these sons will be
full-fledged shevatim, just like Reuven and Shimon, Yaakov Avinu refers to
them as "Efrayim and Menasheh". This is nine pesukim earlier than 48:14, in
which Yosef attempts to correct his father.

Chazal knew how the story ends, and I can't help but wonder... I did not
notice any meforshim who noted the sequence of the names in pasuk 5. Why
did they save their comments for pasuk 14, when they could have brought our
attention to it back in pasuk 5?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50eb8b6c1e212b6b6a6bst04vuc

Yesterday I was hounded by a collector for a tzedaqah who aparently
couldn't believe that an American Jew would only have $1 in his
pocket. Eventually, to get him off my case, I told him to give me a copy
of his literature, in a wa that intimated that I would give more when
I could.

As soon as he walked away, I left the material on the table in the shul
lobby used by everyone putting on tefillin. So, at least his literature
was probably read by others.

But I'm wondering if there is any tzad heter to what I did. I'm not
asking simply to beat myself up; I think this is a situation most of us
encounter frequently.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch


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