Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 6

Mon, 07 Jan 2013

• 1. Re: Seen on Facebook... (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: Seen on Facebook... (Harry Maryles)
• 3. Re: Seen on Facebook... (Micha Berger)
• 4. Moderates criticize rabbi?s women?s modesty views (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Psak in Machshava (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 6. Re: Psak in Machshava (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: experiments in hag'alah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Psak in Machshava (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Uvnucho Yomar (Akiva Miller)
• 10. non-existent midrashim (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: non-existent midrashim (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Psak in Machshava (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: A Time When We Ought Not Learn Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Halachic basis for child support (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: What date was the Torah given? (Marty Bluke)
• 16. Re: non-existent midrashim (Moshe Y. Gluck)

On 1/3/2013 9:51 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck [quoted]:
> "I've managed to piece together a baptism ritual using bits of the RCA 
...
> Interesting question, no?

If by interesting, you mean horrible and tragic, then yes. How on
earth can a Jew justify engaging in this avodah zarah stuff? If his job
requires it, he needs to get a different job. It's yehareg v'al yaavor,
and kal v'chomer yitpater v'al yaavor.

Lisa

On Fri, 1/4/13, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:51:49PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>: Interesting question, no?

> I have to say I don't see the question. What is the tzad heter for doing
> a baptism, even if he bases his own role on the RCA madrikh? Or annointing?
> Catholic communion?

I agree. this is dageroulsy close to Avak Avodah Zara... simply by
allowing the patient to think that he is doing a religious christian
ritual. I don't know exactly what he did. But even if it was entriely
"Kosher" in the actual steps he took (Let's say quoted made some sort
of generic Posuk or soemthing). It deifnitely violates Halacha to be
doing so.

HM
Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 04:11:40AM -0800, R' Harry Maryles wrote:
:                                           But even if it was entriely
: "Kosher" in the actual steps he took (Let's say quoted made some sort
: of generic Posuk or soemthing). It deifnitely violates Halacha to be
: doing so.

I think this is the nail on the head, and points out how it's part of
general malaise.

Across the board, we as a community have spent so much time looking at
rites and things that define O in contrast to the liberal movements,
we forget to think about the other elements of what shemiras Torah
umitzvos means.

So this chaplain justifies what seems to me to be clear AZ because he is
jumping through hoops to avoid certain actions. And a woman who would
would never wear pants, follows all the shiurim she was taught in sem
still but manages to wear something MORE revealing -- skin tight pencil
skirt (but it goes a tefach below her knee!). And we can argue whether
or not some feminist-motivated innovation fits the necessary mitzvos
maasios, and whether the motivation is Jewish or otherwise, but there
are people who don't even understand the relevance of the latter question.

As I said, forgetting the chiyuvim of the heart is a problem across the
board. No less so than in Rabbeinu Bachya ibn Paquda's day.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

 From http://tinyurl.com/bbt8m4u


National-religious moderates express concern over directives for 
modest dress issued by leading Rabbi Shlomo Aviner.

The publication by leading national-religious figure Rabbi Shlomo 
Aviner of a set of principles for modest dress for women last weekend 
evoked considerable consternation within the community.

Aviner, dean of the Ateret Yerushalayim Yeshiva in the Old City of 
Jerusalem and the rabbi of the Beit El settlement, issued a list of 
directives for modest dress in his regular column in the weekly 
Shabbat pamphlet "B'Ahavah U've'Emunah" ("With Love and Faith"), 
which many saw as inappropriate and overly strict.

"Clothing should cover the entire body, it should not be transparent, 
it should not be tight, and it should be quiet and reserved," the rabbi wrote.

The opposite of tight clothing is a garment that conceals the form of 
the body and does not emphasize any limb, continued Aviner, who is 
considered to be on the conservative wing of the national-religious community.

<Snip>

The rabbi also issued directives regarding the color of clothing to 
be worn, saying that women should refrain from wearing anything red, 
body-colored, orange, bold shades of yellow or green, gold, silver or 
anything shiny.

Arms should be covered to at least below the elbow, but the sleeves 
should not be baggy because any movement of the arm will expose the 
area above the elbow, but "how much better and pleasant is it" to 
cover the arm up to the hands, Aviner noted.

The rabbi's directives continue to discuss skirt length, 10cm. below 
the knee, stocking thickness, shoe type and color and other issues of 
modest attire.

See the above URL for more.
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On 1/3/2013 8:49 PM, joelir...@xcomcast.net wrote:
> I think we've discussed the general issue of psak in machshava (or at
> least in the ikkarim). For some reason (and I apologize if we've covered
> this already) it just hit me that the gemara in Eruvin 13b specifically
> uses what IIUC is the language of psak in a case of machshava..
...
> [For two and a half years Beith Shammai and Beith Hillel argued. These
> [Beith Shammai] said "It is better for man not to have been created than
> to have been created." And those [Beith Hillel] said "It is better for
> man to have been created." Together, they [reviewed the opinions and]
> reached a consensus: It is better for man to have not been created than
> to have been created.
...

It wasn't a "vote." They reached a consensus. See the Maharal Derech
Chaim 2:9.

KT,
YGB

On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 12:57:52PM -0500, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> It wasn't a "vote." They reached a consensus. See the Maharal Derech
> Chaim 2:9.

WADR to RSK (the translator I cut-n-pasted from), "nimnu vegamru"
does literally refer to counting votes. And it is, as RJR noted in hit
original post, "the language of psak".

I think the Maharal's point is that the gemara isn't so much about Beis
Hillel and Beis Shammai arguing on an aggadic point as an aggadic story,
metaphor and all, about a machloqes. Thus the Maharal darshens the
meaning of the debate taking 2-1/2 years, etc... The "nimnu vegamru"
is within the story, part of the mashal, as well.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:36:47AM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: http://www.shaalvim.co.il/torah/maayan-article.asp?id=672
: 
: reactions to the  kashrut  hag'alah experiments
: http://www.shaalvim.co.il/torah/maayan-article.asp?id=699

This experiment suffers from a common problem with scientific checking
of halachic claims. It presumes a particular mapping from realia to
halachic chalos.

It's not that different than the discussion over brain death. The
question isn't the biology of human beings, but how deciding which
biological states are called chayim and which are considered maves. Or
even if they do map 1:1 to biological states; it could be that two bodies
are medically identical, but because each one has a different history,
one is connected to a soul in the way the other is not.

Similarly, we got used to associating the kashrus of a utensil to
miniscule levels of absorbtion. It doesn't work 100%, eg when you assume
the volume of the keli rather than the negligable volume of the absorbed
food. But nu. And what if we scientifically find this correlation happens
not to exist. Does that lay into question the pesaq, or only our theories
about which physical states are relevant?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

> It wasn't a "vote." They reached a consensus. See the Maharal Derech
> Chaim 2:9.

WADR to RSK (the translator I cut-n-pasted from), "nimnu vegamru"
does literally refer to counting votes. And it is, as RJR noted in hit
original post, "the language of psak".

I think the Maharal's point is that the gemara isn't so much about Beis
Hillel and Beis Shammai arguing on an aggadic point as an aggadic story,
metaphor and all, about a machloqes. Thus the Maharal darshens the
meaning of the debate taking 2-1/2 years, etc... The "nimnu vegamru"
is within the story, part of the mashal, as well.
=====================================================
OK-but IIUC every other time it is used in Bavli, it is psak. So while the
Maharal's take coheres with a no psak in hashkafa position, the simple
pshat would be	psak.
KT
Joel Rich

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In every siddur I've looked at (Edot Hamizrach excepted), the printed
instructions clearly state that Uv'nucho Yomar is to be said while placing
the Sefer Torah back into the Aron. But in recent years, I have become more
and more aware of people who simply say it immediately after the preceding
paragraph, regardless of the location of the Sefer Torah. This morning, for
example, the chazan, who was carrying the Sefer himself, began sayng
Uvnucho Yomar while he was still zmidst the tzibur, and not yet anywhere
near the Aron.

I have two questions:

1) Why does the siddur tell us to say it while the the Sefer is being put
back into the Aron? I've always presumed that it is because of the opening
word: "Uvnucho - when it rested". But if so, wouldn't it be best to say it
not *while* the Sefer is being replaced, but *after* it is back in its
place?

2) #2 is actually two related questions: a) Have people always ignored the
siddur's instruction and I just never noticed, or is this another minhag
that is now beginning to change? b) If the latter, then what force is
driving this change?

Akiva Miller
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It turns out that some midrashim that we all "know" either have no none
source or a very obscure source

Two examples:
1)The Jews in Egypt did not change their names, their language or their
clothing - no none source
the general psak today is that one can indeed wear clothing from the goyim
as long as it has a purpose

2) King David claimed that the spider has no purpose in the world. Once
when he was being hunted by King Saul a spider spun its web in front of the
cave so that Saul thought no one could be inside and David escaped.

I once invetisgated this and it appears it some obscure quite late rishonim
midrash

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sun, Jan 06, 2013 at 05:23:18PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 1)The Jews in Egypt did not change their names, their language or their
: clothing - no none source

See
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=S#SHELO%20SHINU%
20SHEMOM

We have another of other threads of Phantom Maamrei Chazal. RSBA collects
them

One I think we never discussed is the "gam zeh yaavor" ring. It's a
Sufi Fable, and the first identification of the king with Shlomo may
actually be American 19th cent, not Jewish or ancient.

: 2) King David claimed that the spider has no purpose in the world. Once
: when he was being hunted by King Saul a spider spun its web in front of the
: cave so that Saul thought no one could be inside and David escaped.

Interestingly, there is a Yerushalmi maamar that parallels, but about
insanity. David asked HQBH why He plagued people with insanity, until
the events that led to "LeDavid beshanoso es ta'amo".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

On Fri, Jan 04, 2013 at 03:00:59PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
:> WADR to RSK (the translator I cut-n-pasted from), "nimnu vegamru"
:> does literally refer to counting votes. And it is, as RJR noted in his
:> original post, "the language of psak".

:> I think the Maharal's point is that the gemara isn't so much about Beis
:> Hillel and Beis Shammai arguing on an aggadic point as an aggadic story...
:> The "nimnu vegamru" is within the story, part of the mashal, as well.

: .... So while the Maharal's take coheres with a no psak in hashkafa
: position, the simple pshat would be psak.

The question is the value of the simple peshat of an aggadita.

WRT pesuqim, we have "ein davar yotzei miydei peshuto", which might imply
that WRT their own metaphors, Chazal *did* sometimes (usually?) say things
that had no value to the peshat level.

OTOH, there are rules that constrain the content of aggadic stories which
thereby imbue content to their peshat. E.g. they would never violate
halakhah by attributing a sin to a tzadiq who didn't commit it. So if a
midrashic story attributes an act to one of the avos or shevatim (eg),
later generations will discuss how it was mutar.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 03:41:02AM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: Even if we tolerate others making these additions to the Mezuzah, we are
: making a terrible concession that erodes the core of Yiddishkeit...

: The RaMBaM did not win his fight, he was forced to concede, to at least
: allow their perversion to the outside of the Mezuzah...

I'm not sure who the "we" are in the first half of your quote, since you
admit that the Rambam lost. The mesorah moved on. Qabbalah was allowed
to have its influence on the mezuzah -- as long as we kept it clear
where the mitzvah ended and other things continued.

And then it becomes questionable whether one can use the word "perversion"
to describe the minhag of the vast majority of Benei Yisrael. It raises
real questions of perishah min hatzibur.

:                                                       And today, a Mezuzah
: without these kabbalistic inscriptions would probably be deemed to be
: Passul. Not just, "make sure it is there to continue tradition" but Passul.

This is just accusing people for something you imagine they would do.
I simply don't accept that the objection would be beyond that of breaking
from minhag Yisrael.

: This harks to my earlier discussion regarding the Maharal's forthright
: condemnation of those who are destroying the world because they Pasken
: without understanding the reasoning and without troubling to analyse the
: Halacha...

Which I still say you don't understand as intended, because you do not
link it to the rest of his rhetoric in his battle against the Shulchan
Arukh. Vehara'ayah -- you would have him justify an ignorant balebas to
open the gemara and decide on his own, rather than listen to a poseiq who
knows the trends of the following 1400 years of pesaq. And arguing against
the Behag, the Rif, the Rambam, the Tur, the SA, the Rama, and every other
codifier.

When instead he limits his comments to specific abuse of codes. Look
at the top of the 2nd column on Nesiv haTorah pereq 16, pg 69
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14202&;pgnum=72>. "Ve'ilu
yad'u hamechaberim" -- the problem isn't with what the mechaberim
set out to do; but had they known their works would be used in a way
other than intended...

...
: And violation of this Biblical command is justified because we are feeding
: the SitraAchra? As though HKBH is incapable of ensuring that when we follow
: His commandments no evil should eventuate from our loyalty?

I don't have a problem with avoiding learning on nitl nacht. People need
downtime anyway. It's not like minhag is being set by those yechidei
segulah who learn every free minute. (And I bet they violated the minhag
anyway, citing their inability to stay away.)

Besides, LAD, if they didn't need to empty out the batei medrash and keep
people home that night for safety reasons, I doubt the minhag would have
gotten very far.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41:14PM -0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
:> Why would this necessarily follow?  What is the halachic basis for
:> obligating a father to support his children?

This is something I know little about, so I had some questions.
: 
: There is disagreement amongst the rishonim whether the obligation to support
: children is from the Torah up until the age of six, and then rabbinic froms
: six until they are no longer katanim (shte sieros) - the latter enactment
: being that of the takana of Usha (as set out in Kesubos 49b), or whether it
: is all rabbinic...

Either way, the end date of adult-hood would be derabbanan.

So I was wondering about shetei sa'aros. Isn't that only for deOraisos,
and miderabbanan we rely on age? Why wouldn't the taqanah made in Usha
"kesheheim qetanim" run until 12/13 years?

...
: The modern rabbanut, by takana, extended this obligation to support to ages
: fifteen or sixteen, but it is only an extension of something that already
: existed up until 12 or 13.

If one is separately obligated to support minor children, I presume
that couldn't come out of ma'aser kesafim. (To whatever extent maaser
kesafim is obligatory -- it's the only case I know there opinions range
from deOraisa to minhag chassidus and every possibility in between.)

What about one's older dependent child? And if that can come out of
tzedaqah money, could a modern rabbinic "taqanah" be sufficient to render
this a debt that can no longer come from maaser?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' Akiva Miller wrote:
<Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's "The Torah Anthology" gives exact dates for many
events. For example, the birthdates of Gad and Asher appear in Vol 3 on
page 71.

I would be very skeptical of those dates as the Seder Olam has dates for
everything but many are in dispute. I"ll give just 1 example of many. We
all know the famous Rashi at the beginning of Vayera that the malachim came
to Avraham and Sara on Pesach to tell them that they would have a boy the
next year (on Pesach). Yet the Gemara in Rosh Hashana (11a) states
explicitly that the Malachim came in Tishrei to tell them that they would
have a boy on Pesach.
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R' MB:
One I think we never discussed is the "gam zeh yaavor" ring. It's a Sufi
Fable, and the first identification of the king with Shlomo may actually be
American 19th cent, not Jewish or ancient.
------------------------


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_too_shall_pass

KT,
MYG



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