Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 180

Mon, 24 Dec 2012

• 1. Re: Lama Li KeRa, Sevara rules (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 2. Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Vaccinations (Meir Shinnar)
• 4. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Hegelian Synthesis in the Yerushalmi (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: 10 BeTeves (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Lifnei Iver (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Lifnei Iver (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Lifnei Iver (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Lifnei Iver (Zev Sero)
• 13. Allegorizing Pesukim and R. Shmuel Ibn Tibbon, Was: Re: Mesorah (h Lampel)
• 14. Re: Lifnei Iver (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: what issur holds? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Birkos haShachar (Micha Berger)

     RMeir Rabi writes:
 
<Bava Kama 46b. No need for a Passuk that HaMotzi MeChaVeiro carries the burden of proof.>
 
     What is this quote intended to show?
 
<And from Medrash, one of my favorites, Betzalel figures out for himself
that the Mikdash must be constructed BEfORE the vessels since they must
have a place to be housed. And so even though Moshe Rabbenu instructed him
to first make the vessels, he reversed the sequence so it made sense>
 
     The name of the Medrash is Talmud Bavli: it's a g'mara in B'rachos, 55a. 
. 
<Now here is the real kicker: it is this common sense that is reflected
in his name - indeed he was in the shadow of Gd, BeTzeil Keil and thus knew
the correct sequence.
See? Having common sense is like being in Gd's shadow and is superior to getting it directly from Gd>.
 
     Look in the g'mara.  Hashem told Moshe to make the mishkan first, and
     then the keilim.  Moshe reversed the sequence in his instructions to
     B'tzaleil, who used his common sense to realize Moshe's error.  Chas
     v'shalom to say that common sense can override a direct statement from
     the RbSO.
 
EMT
 
 
 
 

At 08:56 AM 12/24/2012, R. Micha wrote:
>I think we're misreading the Pisqei Teshuvah by casting his words into our
>culture. We view not bathing one night as an imposition. In most of our
>history, shomerei Shabbos were noteworthy for bathing weekly. So we see
>deciding not to bathe on a particular night as making a point. But to them,
>deciding /to/ bathe would be more noteworthy.

>In his world, the Pisqei Teshuvah would be saying something more like: Yes,
>it's mutar to bathe on ohr le'10 beTeves. But why bedavqa bathe that night?
>It would be reasonable to be machmir not to.

Truth be told, whenever I think of people who lived before the advent on
modern plumbing, I think of people whose personal hygiene would offend
us today. Personal hygiene as we know it today was not all that common
not so long ago.

The following is from Rabbi Dr. Theodore Lewis's
Remembrances of Mir Yeshiva that one can read at
<http://tinyurl.com/d5gl6cq> Rabbi Lewis, whom I once met, came to the
Mir Yeshiva in 1935. (I recommend reading the entire article.)

"Every week, a peasant woman would come to pick up our laundry and return
it a few days later, clean and pressed. The students who came from other
countries, came from homes where they had all the modern amenities, found
it difficult and inconvenient, not to have indoor toilets. Instead, there
were outhouses in the back of the homes. This became very inconvenient
in the cold, winter months. To the best of my recollection, the Yeshiva
had the only modern, indoor toilets in the region.

"As there was no indoor plumbing in the homes, water was unavailable
from the faucet. Instead, water had to be transported, physically,
in buckets from a well in the center of the town. Some poor Jews eked
out a meagre livelihood by filling two buckets of water at the well and
carrying them yoke-wise and selling the water to the house owners."

Living under such conditions it is clear to me that even as late as the
1930s people did not bath as frequently as we do today.



At 08:56 AM 12/24/2012, R. Allan Engel wrote:
>Am Yisroel are living in a time of unprecedentedly good decrees, perhaps
>the best in more than two millennia. To fail to appreciate this leads to a
>failure to be properly grateful and thankful for it, which is, to my
>mind, reprehensible.

Doesn't it depend on where one looks today? Certainly much of what
is coming out of the Arab world cannot be considered good. There is a
fellow in Iran who wants to destroy Israel. The are calls in European
countries from extremists to do all sorts of negative things to us. I
am told that to wear a yarmulke in public in France is to risk one's life.

Countries like Saudi Arabia and Yemen certainly have negative decrees
and laws against Jews. Jews have been expelled from most Arab countries.

The Internet is full of anti-Semitism, and there are certainly virulent
anti-Semites here in the USA.

I think your statement, "Am Yisroel are (sic) living in a time of
unprecedentedly good decrees, perhaps the best in more than two
millennia." is really not justified.

Yitzchok Levine

[Replies to Areivim. However, given Dr Shinnar's last paragraph, it
would be foolhardy for me to leave the illusion on Avodah that there
actually are people who actually study the field who came out against
vaccinations. -micha]

> R' Dr. Meir Shinnar wrote:
>> Yes, one can find on the Internet some physicians who write
>> against it, and some naturopaths here are against it, but
>> there is NO serious literature against vaccinations - and the
>> Orthodox community has suffered from listening to the quacks -
>> who have blood on their hands.

> I don't know enough about medicine to discuss the question of whether
> vaccinations are good or bad. The vast majority of what this layman has
> seen is clearly in favor of it.

> But vaccinations are only an *example* of an issue where I might
> follow a different expert than a posek has followed. Who am I to say
> which expert is right or wrong?

> I note that R' Dr. Shinnar was careful to qualify his comment with
> the word "serious". More information on such phraseology can be found
> at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
...

As we are dealing with dine nefashot here, let me be clear:

I am using serious NOT in the True Scotsman sense, but in the sense of
someone who is a recognized expert in Infectious Disease. There are strong
disagreements amongst medical professionals about almost every area -
even in areas where there is apparent consensus, but the overall utility
of vaccinations is one that has no serious opponent - data is data (one
can always find quacks and flat earthers). If a professor of Infectious
Disease would come out against vaccinations - that would be serious.

The closest to an argument against vaccines (and there is good data
on risks vs benefits) is the parasitic one - as everything has risks
(including an aspirin), for SOME vaccines, the best solution for one
person may be to immunize everyone else - as then the incidence of
disease would be reduced to a level that the individual would be at
minimal risk even without himself being vaccinated . Of course, if too
many people chose that option, it wouldn't work...., and recent outbreaks
of preventable diseases are a testament to the folly of the anti vaccine
crowd - who have blood on their hands

Meir Shinnar, MD PhD

> We are ALWAYS living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel.  The exact 
> circumstances and the degree of severity change from year to year and 
> from country to country but anti-Semitism is a constant.
> My own feeling is that we should nevertheless follow the same 
> practices we have always followed.

> *--Toby Katz

Except that you have called the USA a medinat chesed.

What are the decrees being made by the government that are gezeirot 
against the Torah?

Ben

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 07:04:38PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: Except that you have called the USA a medinat chesed.

This is an interesting question: Most Jews live in either EY or the
US. (Rhetoric about the Tal Law's successor aside,) Neither are
places where we face oppression and anti-Torah legislation.

But there is always a minority who are less fortunate. Is that sufficient
to change the status of taaniyos?

: What are the decrees being made by the government that are gezeirot 
: against the Torah?

You mean like the Dutch law against shechitah?
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=226950

Or Germany's ban on milah?
http://www.jta.org/news/article
/2012/08/21/3104711/german-rabbi-criminally-charged-for-performing-circumci
sions

Or trying to live as an observant Jew in Iran or Yemen?

And in France they're debating the legality of wearing a yarmulka
in public.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What we do for ourselves dies with us.
mi...@aishdas.org        What we do for others and the world,
http://www.aishdas.org   remains and is immortal.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Albert Pine

Y-mi Sotah 9:6 43a-b discusses a list of pesuqim where "shelosh meqarios
ne'emru be'inyan echad; mah she'amar zeh lo amar zeh, umah she'amar zeh lo
amar zeh." Each pasuq divided and spoken among three parties. More often
than not, the third "voice" is ruach haqodesh (RhQ).

1: Eglah arufah (Devarim 21:7-9)
    zeqeinim: yadeinu lo shafkhu es hadam hazeh
    kohanim: kaper le'amkha Yisrael asher padisa H'
    RhQ: unekhaper lahem hadam

2: Yehudah veTamar (Bereishis 38:25)
    Tamar: haker na lemi hachosamos vehapesilim vehamateh ha'eileh?
    Yehudah: tzadqah mimeni, ki al kein lo nesatiha lesheilah beni
    RhQ: velo yosef od ledaatah

3: The Meraglim (Bamidbar 13:27)
    Yehoshua: Banu el ha'aretz asher shalachtanu vegam zavas chalav
        udevash hee...
    10 Meraglim: Efes ki az ha'am hayosheiv ba'aretz...
    Kaleiv: Alo na'aleh veyarashnu

4: Eim Siserah (Shofetim 5:28-30)
    Eim Siserah: Veteyabeiv eim Siserah... Madua bosheish rikhbo...
    Her daughters in law (acc to the Y-mi, the pasuq says it's chokhmas
        saroseha): Halo yimtze'u, yachlequ shalal...
    RhQ: kein yovedu kol oyvekha Hashem

It seems to me that in each case the gemara is casting the pasuq into
a pretty clear thesis-antithesis-synthesis structure.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

If the klal is that "ein gozrin ta'anit in Bavel" (because there is no 
nasi), how can the Shaar HaTziyon make this ruling in the first place?

Ben
> The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say 
> that we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would 
> require us Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av and 
> even starting it the night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also Mishna 
> Brura 568:9).

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On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 01:00:19AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 10 BeTeves seems to be less important than other fast days
: "only" the siege began and life in Jerusalem was almost normal.

: OTOH Avrudaham says that IF 10 BeTeves would be on shabbat we would fast on
: shabbat.

: RAL explains that is exactly the message. This was the last chance to see
: what was happening and to change and avoid the Churban.

I like connecting 10 beTeves and Yehudah's confession on behalf of his
brothers. "Aval asheimim anachnu".

There are two versions of Vidui in Hilkhos Teshuvah... In pereq 1, the
Rambam says the mitzvah of teshuvah is to say vidui, and spells out what
that entails. Including "ve'asisi kakh vekakh" -- it's a vidui for deeds.

The form of vidui the Rambam says Jews are nohagim to say is closer
to Yehudah's -- "aval anachnu chatanu". A vidui about who we are that
led us to that sin. More blatantly so in Yehudah's case. "Chatanu"
would more naturally be "we sinned", but the focus could well be on
"anachnu". "Asheimim" is clearly a matter of personal guilt, self
assessment.

And that's the seed, the 10 beTeives, that underlies the specific
chata'im, and none of the qabbalah al ha'asid about the sins is of value
without it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 06:30:05PM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: Perhaps I'm missing something, but no criminal is allowed to legally
: carry a gun. To say that Judaism teaches that it is forbidden to provide
: criminals with a gun is a truism. Our laws would never allow a convicted
: felon to have a gun license. Working in Law Enforcement, I can assure 
: you that criminals get the "tools of their trade" illegally. They don't need
: a license and no sane system would provide them with the "tools of their
: trade."  

I think that technically making guns more available would be mesayei'ah
lidvar aveirah, not lifnei iver. A major difference -- mesayei'ah is
derabbanan, and only applies to helping Jews violate the 613, not to
helping benei Noach violate their 7.

Not getting into the issue of gun control itself, which also involves
preventing injury and death, and the discussion of sinning is not
necessarily the core issue.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

On 24/12/2012 3:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I think that technically making guns more available would be mesayei'ah
> lidvar aveirah

How would it be that, any more than making cars available would be
mesayea` to those who would use them to get away from robberies, or
to run people over?  Guns, after all, are more useful to would-be
victims of crimes than to criminals.  They're the equaliser, that
allows otherwise-helpless people to defend themselves.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 03:38:28PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 24/12/2012 3:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I think that technically making guns more available would be mesayei'ah
>> lidvar aveirah

> How would it be that, any more than making cars available would be
> mesayea` to those who would use them to get away from robberies...

I am not going to get into a converversation that is off topic for Avodah
and too political for Areivim.

What I meant was that if you wanted to find a halachic basis for gun
control based on the assumption that it reduces the numbers of murders,
that basis would be mesayei'ah, not lifnei iveir. For it to be lifnei
iveir, the person in question would have to be incapable of murdering
their victim without the gun.

It is also kind of off topic because if this assumption were to hold,
our duty to the potential victim would far outweigh issues like
lifnei iveir or mesayei'ah anyway. And of the assumption doesn't hold,
then it's not mesayei'ah /nor/ lifnei iveir either.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

On 24/12/2012 3:52 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> It is also kind of off topic because if this assumption were to hold,
> our duty to the potential victim would far outweigh issues like
> lifnei iveir or mesayei'ah anyway.

Indeed, the issur on selling weapons to nochrim who are suspected to be
violent criminals is in hilchos nezikin.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

Mon, 17 Dec 2012, RMS <chide...@xgmail.com> wrote:
> WRT RZL's challenge, one doesn't say hazal were wrong - and one may
> even believe that one has uncovered the esoteric meaning of hazal.
> However, the reason to look for the esoteric meaning, rather than
> what everyone else understands, lies in new information that
> mandates a reinterpretation.

> If you want one rishon that practices this - look at Shmuel Ibn
> Tibbon, translator of the rambam, whom the rambam valued - and his
> *Ma'amar Yikkawu ha-Mayim - *reinterpreting parshat breshit
> according to Aristotle's On Meteorology.

I am relieved that RMS agrees that the Rambam does not legitimatize 
saying Chazal were wrong. He proceeds to discuss reinterpretation of 
what /Chazal/ meant based upon new information. However, our discussion 
was about /rishonim/ reinterpreting what Chazal held /pesukim/ meant in 
light of alleged facts not known previously. (A nafka minnah would be 
dismissing the peshat of the Mabul and reinterpreting it as an 
allegory -- the notion that sparked this discussion.) And that is what my 
challenge was regarding, as quite clearly stated:

    "I am interested in seeing an example of a rishon who, based on new
    information, changed, or posited that we should change, the
    traditional/conventional way of understanding the basic nature of
    any Torah narratives from historical to allegorical. As far as I can
    see, any rishon who posits that a particular narrative is meant
    allegorically maintains that this was the way Chazal understood it
    all along."

In any case, I am delighted that RMS brings to the fore yet another 
source that overturns his thesis, R. Shmuel Ibn Tibbon's /Ma'amar 
Yikkavu ha-Mayim./

Now, when serious Torah scholars speak of rishonim, they mean framers 
and transmitters of the mesorah -- men such as Rashi, Rambam, Ramban, 
Radak, Ibn Ezra. It is not at all clear that Ibn Tibbon has the status 
of a rishon, despite the time in which he lived, and despite praises 
spoken of him at his levaya. And R. KPCH questions whether the praises 
the Rambam wrote to him of his abilities constituted his final informed 
opinion. (<http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/more/hakdama-2.htm>)
<http://www.torah.org/learning/rambam/special/kapach.html>

In any case, the final paragraphs of Ibn Tibbon's work RMS cites speaks
quite strongly against the idea that any additional meanings attributed
to a posuk can be used to dismiss the peshat of that posuk. The peshat
remains. So Ibn Tibbon actually denies RMS' thesis that rishonim, based
on "new information that mandates reinterpretation," legitimatized
re-interpretation of pesukim in a sense that overrides their peshat.

Here is Ibn Tibbon's summary of his approach in his own words:
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32699&;st=&pgnum=181>

    All that we have said about the Tower [of Babel, regarding the
    Torah's allusions in the pesukim thereof to the erroneous beliefs
    held by the builders] is consistent with those verses not parting
    from what their peshat meaning tolerates. For the inner secrets
    of the Torah [such as that I attributed to it] do not wrench the
    pesukim from their poshut meaning, /Challilah!/ Had this been so
    [that attributing such secrets to the pesukim meant dismissing the
    pashtus meaning of the pesukim], Chazal would not have been [giving
    such explanations, seeing that this would entail that they would have
    been] wrenching the peshat meaning from a preponderance of the Torah,
    of the words of those who spoke through Ruach HaKodesh [in Kesuvim],
    and of the Prophets. [Note: the last sentence is manifestly convoluted
    in the original, and my bracketed insertions keep it that way but
    nevertheless retain the meaning indicated by the context. -ZL]

    None of the 70 faces of the Torah contradict another. Behold
    [this proof]: One of the Chachamim attributed, to the verses of
    the first chapter of Breishis, a description of the generations
    [of the proceeding 6000 years and their occurrences -- I believe Ibn
    Tibbon is referring to the Chazal the Ramban cites, that treats the
    occurrences of each of the first seven days of Creation as remazim
    to what will happen during each of the six millenia of the world's
    existence -ZL.] If he were, because of this, wrenching the pesukim
    of their peshat meanings [and saying that the pesukim are referring
    only to this esoteric prediction of future eras], he would not have
    a Torah source for the world's Creation! And this is unthinkable!

I think it is obvious how this would apply to the Mabul as opposing
reinterpretation of its obvious depiction of a non-natural (miraculous)
occurrence al pi peshat (40 straight days and nights of rain, the
creatures of the world coming in pairs to the ark, etc.), as well as al
pi Chazal (cosmological changes, etc.). RMS would now revert to claiming
the Rambam would demand that one should "do one's best to explain it
away." I'll leave that for a separate post.

(BTW, did you notice Ibn Tibbon's "/Challilah/" in his remark? So, so,
so /chareidi/-like... Perhaps RMS will write this off as "far more to
do with current haredi sensibilities than with the Rambam"?)

Zvi Lampel

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 03:56:53PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> Indeed, the issur on selling weapons to nochrim who are suspected to be
> violent criminals is in hilchos nezikin.

And to Yehudim who are similarly suspected -- mesayei'ah PLUS neziqin.
(Not sure why the word "nakhriim" found its way into the original
sentence.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 10:58:37PM -0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
:> Giving women serarah.

: Yes.

:> This is actually more of an issue for RAYKook followers. RAYK was against
:> women's suffrage because of serarah.

: No. RAYK was against women's suffrage but he did not bring serarah as his
: reason. If anything it appears primarily based on kol kavuda and
: philosophical objections regarding the appropriate role of women...

RAYK, in his letter to Mizrachi dated Sep 1919 (I have not seen the
original, only the translation at
<http://www.edah.org/backend/JournalArticle/1_2_debate.pdf#page=5>),
appears to be identifying "'vekivshuha' -- ish darko likhbosh, ve'ein
ishah darkah likhbosh" (Yevamos 65a) with kol kevudah. The followup
letter talks more in terms of sanctity of family and thus fits RnCL's
characterization of "philosophical objections regarding the appropriate
role of women". But it refers back to the prior letter -- it seems
clear RAYK was making one point.

The reference to Yevamos is what I remembered as serarah. If that linkage
has any validiy, then RAYK saw serarah as a product of those philosophical
objections. "Ein ishah darkah likhbosh" because "kol kevudah" which is
one with the structure of the Jewish People around the Jewish Family.

I do not know how RAYK defines "kibush" in this context. RYBS makes
statements that this engineer takes as references to mastering and
harnessing the world scientifically and technologically.

If RAYK takes it in terms of settling the world, then my memory would
by luck be less wrong than it could have been.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 03:46:44PM -0500, David Wacholder wrote:
: I submit my puzzlement on the Birkos Hashachar. Were they said by people
: who did not say the regular prayers? If a person said Hashem pokeiach Ivrim
: - why does he need to say Baruch ata...Pokeiach ivrim? It only made sense
: to author it when there was a shorter psukei d'zimra. Once it acquired a
: following, it remained.

They're older than pesuqei dezimra altogether. There is advice by
R' Yosi to say Tehilah leDavid (pereq #145, a/k/a the core of Ashrei)
through pereq 150 (the end of the book). But it wasn't de rigeur until
the geonim. See Siddur R' Saadia Gaon pp 32
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20685&;pgnum=91>.
I can't vouche for the original Arabic, but the Hebrew translation
begins, "Vehisnadvah umaseinu liqro mizmorim..." And the section is
in his siddur /after/ Shacharis, not like it's part of Shacharis.
To RSG, Pesuqei deZimra really was minhag, albeit minhag yisrael.

So, birkhos hashachar were completed by R' Meir, a student of R' Aqiva,
adding the three "shelo asani" berakhos to the ones RDW asks about. They
already existed. Whereas pesuqei dezimra were first suggested by R'
Yosi, another student of R' Aqiva, in that generation -- and did not
become universal for centuries.

Interestingly to our original question, RSG seems to be saying that
the reason for this minhag was for the maamin to elaborate the thoughts
raised by the birkhos hashachar.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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