Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 179

Mon, 24 Dec 2012

• 1. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Isha Raah (David Wacholder)
• 5. Re: LH about poskim (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Loshan Hara about Poskim (Eli Turkel)
• 7. 10 BeTeves (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Lama Li KeRa, Sevara rules (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 9. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Allan Engel)
• 10. Re: Mesorah (Meir Shinnar)
• 11. Re: Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Mesorah (Meir Shinnar)
• 13. Re: Loshan Hara about Poskim (Akiva Blum)

I think we're misreading the Pisqei Teshuvah by casting his words into our
culture. We view not bathing one night as an imposition. In most of our
history, shomerei Shabbos were noteworthy for bathing weekly. So we see
deciding not to bathe on a particular night as making a point. But to them,
deciding /to/ bathe would be more noteworthy.

In his world, the Pisqei Teshuvah would be saying something more like: Yes,
it's mutar to bathe on ohr le'10 beTeves. But why bedavqa bathe that night?
It would be reasonable to be machmir not to.


*Shetir'u Batov*!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Prof. Levine quoted revach.net:

> The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible
> to say that we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel,
> which would require us Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way
> as Tisha B'Av and even starting it the night before ...

Others have already posted arguments on why this would not apply today. I
would go further, and suggest that anyone living in the USA who would even
make this comparison - let alone act on it! - would be Kofer Batov against
this Medinah Shel Chesed.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d75395230c253946523st02vuc

From: "Prof. Levine"  <llev...@stevens.edu>


<http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/Are-You-Allowed-to-Take-a-Shower-
the-Nigh
t-Before-a-Taanis/5239>http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/Are-You-Allowed-to-
Take-a-Shower-the-Night-Before-a-Taanis/5239



>>  The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say 
that we  are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would 
require us Min  HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av and 
even starting it the  night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also Mishna 
Brura 568:9).  <<
 
From: Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com>

>> As far as I  can discern, the Sha'ar Hatziyon (or Sha'ar Hatziyun) lived 
150
years ago.  How is it relevant to quote what he says of "today"? <<





>>>>
 
We are ALWAYS living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel.  The exact  
circumstances and the degree of severity change from year to year and  from 
country to country but anti-Semitism is a constant.
 
My own feeling is that we should nevertheless follow the same  practices we 
have always followed.
 

--Toby Katz
=============


------------------------------------------------------------------- 


 
 


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This negatively worded - "save me from sundry evil machinations such as..."
 What does it add to the long list of positive requests preceding it?
May I suggest that the original prayer invoked Divine Protection against
against evil magic spells,  One old nusach still contained such wording -
perhaps someone can help me out by finding it.
If so, the prayer would mention female witches based on the passuk which
mentions witches in female gender - Mechasheifa - rather than male gender
Mechasheif warlock. Meshech Chochma makes some comment there.
If so the gender-non-neutral phraseology is just a habit of tongue, and
male-cast spells should  engender  equal Divine Protection.

PUZZLING STRUCTURE in Birkot Hashachar
I submit my puzzlement on the Birkos Hashachar. Were they said by people
who did not say the regular prayers? If a person said Hashem pokeiach Ivrim
- why does he need to say Baruch ata...Pokeiach ivrim? It only made sense
to author it when there was a shorter psukei d'zimra. Once it acquired a
following, it remained.

The entirety of this group of  Brachos puzzles me.  They must have started
as quotes of psukim - HVYH opens my eyes - then post Rav and Shmuel
acquired the entire 5 word introduction. Saying it many times over,  with
only two or three words in between, sharply contrasts with the long
benediction short benediction st;yle as described in  Brachos. .

Was it made for hurried people who did not pray? Was all of Birkot
Hashachar originally used for men, or for  women, (egalitarian) by  for
both equally?
Likely jindividual blessings  sprung up spontaneously and later they were
grouped together.  Even in Rishonim times - Frankel Rambam lists 17 orders
of the blessings, including several no-shows, indicating it was said at
home. If so it would be more spontaneous,  more adjusted to individual.

All the Birkos hashachar  - from rooster crow to He Who removes weariness
from my eyes/ kep me up with Your Torah - are all a separate and isolated
group. They are not from the planned progression of Tefila.
Originally it was optimized for home use, as in the Rambam's and Vilan
Gaon's usage. .As an afterthought it became part of the Beit Knesset,
These are just suggestions. The evidence is rather too sketchy to make
conclusions.
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R' Dr. Meir Shinnar wrote:

> Yes, one can find on the Internet some physicians who write
> against it, and some naturopaths here are against it, but
> there is NO serious literature against vaccinations - and the
> Orthodox community has suffered from listening to the quacks -
> who have blood on their hands.

I don't know enough about medicine to discuss the question of whether
vaccinations are good or bad. The vast majority of what this layman has
seen is clearly in favor of it.

But vaccinations are only an *example* of an issue where I might follow a
different expert than a posek has followed. Who am I to say which expert is
right or wrong?

I note that R' Dr. Shinnar was careful to qualify his comment with the word
"serious". More information on such phraseology can be found at http://en.wikipedia.or
g/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Again, I am not saying the vaccinations are bad. I'm only saying that when
one accuses a gadol of making wrong decisions, those accusations should be
backed up by facts, not innuendo.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d75633b1e3656334035st01vuc

<<I often read articles and advertisements which give me the impression
that indeed they all do have technical experts. If you know of one that
doesn't, please tell us which, and why you think so. Perhaps the real issue
is that you and they disagree about the level of expertise needed; if so,
could you elaborate on why I should prefer your standards to theirs?>>

Again, I wont quote names because of LH and it may be grounds for a suit.
The OU is recognized as one of the top kashrut organizations because of
their array of food chemists and other such experts on their staff. I
assume most of the larger organizations (including the Edah HaCharedit)
have similar experts. A Chassidic Rebbe who gives a hechsher to several
local restaurants is unlikely to have access to such experts. He either
relies on someone else's hasgacha or is likely to make errors. There have
been enough stories about the OU (and other similar organizations) coming
into a factory for a run of a product and found that the previous kashrut
run was treif because it included some chemicals that the masgiach didnt
realize were from nonkosher sources.

As I stated before I would prefer a large organization with food chemists
on the staff to a small organization with a great gadol as their posek.
Again repeating my local rabbi he would rely more on R. Rosen about the
details of a dishwasher than some greater posek.To again repeat RMF and
RSZA (I am not excluding anyone specific) used world recognized experts for
their piskei halacha. It is well known that RSZA personally studied
electricity so he could properly pasken.

To discuss the case of vacinnation a posek should speak to a doctor who is
well versed in the literature of infectious diseases
and need not speak the surgeon general. If the top echelon of doctors
disagree that is part of halacha just like poskim disagree. However, I
would hope that a posek would not rely on his local family doctor for a
major psak.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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10 BeTeves seems to be less important than other fast days
"only" the siege began and life in Jerusalem was almost normal.

OTOH Avrudaham says that IF 10 BeTeves would be on shabbat we would fast on
shabbat.

RAL explains that is exactly the message. This was the last chance to see
what was happening and to change and avoid the Churban.
The lesson for our days is that we have to see the problems ahead of time
and do teshuva and not wait until it is too late

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Bava Kama 46b. No need for a Passuk that HaMotzi MeChaVeiro carries the
burden of proof.

And from Medrash, one of my favorites, Betzalel figures out for himself
that the Mikdash must be constructed BEfORE the vessels since they must
have a place to be housed. And so even though Moshe Rabbenu instructed him
to first make the vessels, he reversed the sequence so it made sense.
Now here is the real kicker: it is this common sense that is reflected in
his name - indeed he was in the shadow of Gd, BeTzeil Keil and thus knew
the correct sequence.

See? Having common sense is like being in Gd's shadow and is superior to
getting it directly from Gd.

And that's the Maharal, and Reb Chaim Volosziner and DaAsTevunos - with the
Seichel being the guide to the Neshama.
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Am Yisroel are living in a time of unprecedentedly good decrees, perhaps
the best in more than two millennia. To fail to appreciate this leads to a
failure to be properly grateful and thankful for it, which is, to my
mind, reprehensible.

On 23 December 2012 19:03, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

>
> We are ALWAYS living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel.  The exact
> circumstances and the degree of severity change from year to year and from
> country to country but anti-Semitism is a constant.
>
>
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> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 07:53:45PM -0500, Meir Shinnar wrote:
> : I would go further - RMB has posited that the rambam viewed it impossible
> : that reason and torah should clearly conflict - which I would agree with.
> : He would also probably bring a ma'amar hazal to support this. The question
> : of how to reconcile problems - and this is done by allegory....

> The question isn't allegory, it's the limits of chiddush. Our
> disagreement has nothing to do with casess where the Rambam writes that
> something is allegorical based on Chazal.

> And for that matter would include cases where someone claims something
> is literal despite Chazal saying otherwise....

> There are to the best of our knowledge no cases where he says something is
> allegorial without such basis....
> In fact in the Moreh he repeatedly demands that a philosophical conclusion
> be in consonance with the "words of our prophets and sages", because the
> only time he employs allegory is when those sages say it's appropriate!
...
> I assume that if he couldn't find that Chazal, he would (and did) remain
> silent because he didn't have a position he could take on the subject.

For hopefully one last time.
To reformulate in other terms, RMB believes that the Rambam needs a mattir
from hazal to allegorize.

I hold that the rambam permitted allegory unless there was a very
specific issur from hazal - which was specific, clearly authoritative
(eg, could not be held to be a rejected opinion ( da'at yachid)), and
explicitly held for the plain pshat as normative.

I cite a Rambam who states my position explicitly. RMB can only bring
that the Rambam likes to cite ma'amre hazal as support - which, IMHO,
is no proof - as a large part of the Rambam is to show the congruence
of truth (aka philosophy) and hazal.

I don't know of any serious Rambam scholar who holds likes RMB.
My position seems to be held, in addition to academic s, by, among
others, RAYK and Rav Lichtenstein, who use the Rambam as a mattir to
extend allegory when needed.

Meir Shinnar

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 08:19:58AM -0500, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: I cite a Rambam who states my position explicitly. RMB can only bring
: that the Rambam likes to cite ma'amre hazal as support ...

I would say you cite a piece of the Rambam which looks like it is
saying your position, but then, when we look at the quote in full --
as RZL did, does not.

I also brought a half-dozen cases in the second section of the Moreh
alone where the Rambam says that his understanding is what is consistent
with our prophets and sages". Not only that in practice he NEVER (not
just "likes to") gives a peshat that isn't supported by citing Chazal,
but also that he repreatedly tells us peshatim must be consistent
with their teachings.

: I don't know of any serious Rambam scholar who holds likes RMB.
: My position seems to be held, in addition to academics, by, among
: others, RAYK and Rav Lichtenstein, who use the Rambam as a mattir to
: extend allegory when needed.

I do not know of cases where RAYK or RAL declare things to be allegory
without appeal to prior sources either.

As for Maimonidian Academics, after reading what Strauss et al did with
the premise of esoteric texts such that ideas that the Rambam explicitly
denies are attributed to him (but he was trying to hide is real beliefs)
-- I am unimpressed. You can read anything into the resulting Rorscharsh
test. Once you can say a book doesn't mean what it days, there is no
book left.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

I had brought two sources. 
One of them, is in the context of a discussion of a particular issue - RZL
argues it only applies to that issue, and that issue has general rabbinic
support, even if not for the details. .  whether or not that is the correct
reading, and how limiting that reading is,  can be argued  (in some sense,
extending what RZL,   as there is a source for hazal for olam keminhago
holech and that torah is true, , there is now rabbinic support for radical
allegorization of everything that conflicts with those statements..., but I
doubt that is what he means...) 

The second source - where he describes his general approach to miracles - has not been dealt with.

He has a similar source in the introduction to helek 3 of the MN (Kafih
edition page276) - I had no vision that would teach me, nor did I learn it
from anyone (see below about rav kafih)


WRT RAYK -there is a famous letter where he specifically says that we need
to extend the rambam's approach and apply it to gan eden (in the context of
evolution) - without bringing any prior sources....

RAL wrote 
Confronted by evident contradiction, one would of course initially strive
to ascertain whether it is apparent or real to determine, on the one hand,
whether indeed the methodology of Madda does inevitably lead to a given
conclusion and, on the other, whether the received content of Torah can be
interpreted or reinterpreted so as to avert a collision.
(1Torah uMadda: Congruence, Confluence and Conflictt)
(note - not that a source in hazal for the new interpretation..)
One can argue what would drive one to such reinterpretation, and whether he would agree to it in practice - but he is clear about the theoretical framework.  

WRT serious rambam scholars - there are serious, yere shamayim people out there, not merely Leo Strauss.,,

eg,  Twersky z"l, Introdcution to the Code of Maimonides, 366-367  - that
hochma for the rambam is an independent source of torah knowledge, and he
insists on it - as well as kabe l ha emet mimi sheomro - not merely
dependent on finding hazal.  (I would add that kabel haemet mimi  sheomro
seems a strong rejection of requiring a source in hazal for truth...)

I would add people like Prof Ravitzky, as well as rav Kafih (and there are
many other dati rambam scholars) . Rav Kafih's commentary tries hard to
find sources in hazal for much of the moreh nevuchim - but would never
argue like you.  Indeed, in his footnotes to the quotation abouve (page
276), he states that the rambam was aware that he was dealing with the best
knowledge of his time - (this was in reference to his interpretation of
ma'ase merkava in terms of Ptolemaic and Aristotelian physics)..- and we
have an obltgation to reinterprete in terms of the best knowledge of OUR
time..)

I would agree on one issue - such freedom of reinterpretation is not for
the amcha - but requires both broad knowledge of both spheres of knowledge,
as well as intellectual integrity.  It is not for the average high school
or college student to casually denigrate traditional teaching. 
Furthermore,  one can argue how far the rambam may have been willing to
take it in practice (at best, your sources of the rambam suggest that he is
less radical in practice than in theory). However, someone who argues that
the rambam required authority from hazal for any particular allegory (as
distinct from the broader authority of seeking for the truth), IMHO, lacks
either	knowledge or intellectual seriousness - and can not be taken as a
serious reading of the rambam.	

Meir 

On Dec 23, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 08:19:58AM -0500, Meir Shinnar wrote:
> : I cite a Rambam who states my position explicitly. RMB can only bring
> : that the Rambam likes to cite ma'amre hazal as support ...
> 
> I would say you cite a piece of the Rambam which looks like it is
> saying your position, but then, when we look at the quote in full --
> as RZL did, does not.
> 
> I also brought a half-dozen cases in the second section of the Moreh
> alone where the Rambam says that his understanding is what is consistent
> with our prophets and sages". Not only that in practice he NEVER (not
> just "likes to") gives a peshat that isn't supported by citing Chazal,
> but also that he repreatedly tells us peshatim must be consistent
> with their teachings.
> 
> : I don't know of any serious Rambam scholar who holds likes RMB.
> : My position seems to be held, in addition to academics, by, among
> : others, RAYK and Rav Lichtenstein, who use the Rambam as a mattir to
> : extend allegory when needed.
> 
> I do not know of cases where RAYK or RAL declare things to be allegory
> without appeal to prior sources either.
> 
> As for Maimonidian Academics, after reading what Strauss et al did with
> the premise of esoteric texts such that ideas that the Rambam explicitly
> 
> -- I am unimpressed. You can read anything into the resulting Rorscharsh
> test. Once you can say a book doesn't mean what it days, there is no
> book left.
> 
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> 
> -- 
> Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
> mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
> http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Eli Turkel
Sent: Monday, 24 December, 2012 1:28 AM
To: kennethgmil...@juno.com; Avodah

 

A Chassidic Rebbe who gives a hechsher to several local restaurants is
unlikely to have access to such experts. He either relies on someone else's
hasgacha or is likely to make errors

 

Are you claiming that a Rabbi cannot even give a hechsher to a local restaurant without a team of top experts?

 

Akiva

 

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