Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 178

Sun, 23 Dec 2012

• 1. Re: LH about poskim (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 3. Admin: PSA: Vaccinations (Meir Shinnar)
• 4. Re: what issur holds? (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Lifnei Iver (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. Re: lashan hara about poskim (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: ISHA RA'A (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: ISHA RA'A (menucha)
• 9. Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Allan Engel)
• 11. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Re: Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis? (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 14. Judaism and Rome (Prof. Levine)

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 11:24:48AM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
: Absolutely NO ONE is expert in everything. We each have our own fields
: of expertise.

I understood your initial question as being:

How can people accuse posqim of making decisions despite the lack of
expertise or even of doing so on the basis of false claims of expertise
by people who have repeatedly fooled them in the past? Isn't it LH to
say that the gedolei haposqim aren't investing sufficient care to make
sure they know the metzi'us about which they're pasqening?

As you put it in the opening post:
> If a person - for whatever reason - distrusts the posek's expert, and
> chooses to follow a different psak, then that's a different matter. My
> argument is when he publicly accuses the posek of choosing an unreliable
> expert.

It's not LH if we believe it's an honest mistake on their part. Eg.
gedolei haposqim tend to be old, and also (since the petiros of RMF
and RSZA) living a very different lifestyle from those of their
sho'alim. The "ivory tower" as it were.

In all likelihood the information that Reb So-and-so's past statements
proved to be very slanted toward producing the pesaq he desired never
actually reached the poseiq. So the choice of believing them a second
time is an honest error.

It's more of a question about da'as Torah than LH, since repeated errors
would be data against belief in da'as Torah, but isn't a flaw that we
can say they are being "accused" of.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 07:53:45PM -0500, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: I would go further - RMB has posited that the rambam viewed it impossible
: that reason and torah should clearly conflict - which I would agree with.
: He would also probably bring a ma'amar hazal to support this. The question
: of how to reconcile problems - and this is done by allegory....

The question isn't allegory, it's the limits of chiddush. Our
disagreement has nothing to do with casess where the Rambam writes that
something is allegorical based on Chazal.

And for that matter would include cases where someone claims something
is literal despite Chazal saying otherwise. E.g. some of the Rashbam's
parshanut (e.g. on "vayehi erev vayehi voqer") is likely beyond the
Rambam's pale.

There are to the best of our knowledge no cases where he says something is
allegorial without such basis. Not in the Moreh, not in Maamar Techiyas
haMeisim, nowhere. Even his words in Peirush haMishnayos about aggadic
narratives is a statement that in bulk, it's Chazal who tell us that form
isn't intended as literal history.

In fact in the Moreh he repeatedly demands that a philosophical conclusion
be in consonance with the "words of our prophets and sages", because the
only time he employs allegory is when those sages say it's appropriate!

So I wouldn't say "it is done by allegory" but rather "it is done by
further study of both nature and of TSBP" -- the latter often including
a license for allegory. But allegory without such a license? The Rambam
consistently invokes Chazal to justify each and every use of allegory.

I assume that if he couldn't find that Chazal, he would (and did) remain
silent because he didn't have a position he could take on the subject.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

>> eg the posek never had a secular education. a question
>> comes up about vaccinations. if they bring him an
>> anti-vaccination advocate as an 'expert', other than ruach
>> hakodesh what can tell him that veracity emerges from the
>> expert's mouth?

> RAM

> I don't know what field your expertise is in, but in my case, I
> am certainly NOT an expert in medical matters. I am aware that some
> physicians are pro-vaccination, and some are anti-vaccination. Being
> that I am not an expert, I am not qualified to judge the merits of their
> arguments. It does seem to me that the pro-vaccination physicians are
> in the majority, but that's just a function of the media outlets that
> I listen to, and the mazel of the personal doctors that I have used.

> In other words, I suspect that *everyone* -- you, me, the local posek,
> and the local sanitation worker -- chooses their experts in pretty much
> the same manner, and I'm interested to hear what improvements you would
> suggest. One improvement I can think of might be to go directly to some
> acknowledged world leader. For example, for medical issues, one might
> ask what the position is of the American Medical Association. Or the
> National Institutes of Health. Or the Surgeon General. But these groups
> might not agree with each other. And they've been accused of "having an
> agenda" anyway.

As we are dealing here with dine nefashot, and shtika kehoda'a, let me
put in my two cents on medical matters. While I am not an infectious
disease expert , I know of NO recognized expert whose field is related
to infectious diseases who is against vaccinations (debate is on
precise schedule and some newer ones - not basic vaccines) Yes, one
can find on the Internet some physicians who write against it, and some
naturopaths here are against it, but there is NO serious literature
against vaccinations - and the Orthodox community has suffered from
listening to the quacks - who have blood on their hands.

Meir Shinnar, MD PhD

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 08:47:03AM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: one could  certainly imagine  a haredi party where women could be on
: the list.but  it would seem that the political culture of  UTJ and
: Shas could not manage this...
: the poster wonders based on what sin.

And RMB replied:

>Giving women serarah.

Yes.

> This is actually more of an issue for RAYKook followers. RAYK was against
women's suffrage because of serarah.

No.  RAYK was against women's suffrage but he did not bring serarah as his
reason.  If anything it appears primarily based on kol kavuda and
philosophical objections regarding the appropriate role of women.  However
his definition of serarah is quite wide, in Orech Mishpat Choshen Mishpat 20
he held that serarah applied to a (male) doctor in a hospital.  A true
follower of RAYK might therefore have a serarah problem with a woman doctor,
but not with voting.
 
Serarah was however raised by those leading the charedi world at the time.
R' Chaim Ozer for example was reported to have held that voting constituted
serarah.

> If voting is inappropriate political power, being an MK is altogether out
of the question.

Agreed.

>R' Uzziel permitted voting, vekakh nohagim.

And participation in the Knesset, as did Rav Hertzog.

>I'm told that Rn Dr Nechama Leibowitz didn't vote to the day she died
because of RAYK's pesaq.

That may be, but not because of serarah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Regards

Chana

"...Criminals do commit crimes, and it is precisely because 
morally blind criminals are disposed to crime that Judaism teaches
that it is forbidden to provide them with the tools of their trade." 

Perhaps I'm missing something, but no criminal is allowed to legally
carry a gun. To say that Judaism teaches that it is forbidden to provide
criminals with a gun is a truism. Our laws would never allow a convicted
felon to have a gun license. Working in Law Enforcement, I can assure 
you that criminals get the "tools of their trade" illegally. They don't need
a license and no sane system would provide them with the "tools of their
trade."  

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> I purposely was vague so as not to attack individual poskim.
> Does Akiva prefer that I get into specifics?

I already answered that in my very next line, which was:

> But even if one would be speaking about a specific case, who
> are we to say that our expert is better than the posek's
> expert?

But actually, it seems that we agree on that, because you wrote:

> The proper halachic procedure is to get the facts right. Again,
> when the posek says he relied on expert X I agree that is ok.

Here's a section where, yes indeed, I'd like you to name names:

> The major kashrut organizations have technical experts who
> help the posek make a decision. Part of the problem with
> Heimesche hashgachot is that they don't have such experts.
> Following halachic procedure doesnt make the treif product
> become kosher if one didnt check the facts appropriately)

I often read articles and advertisements which give me the impression that
indeed they all do have technical experts. If you know of one that doesn't,
please tell us which, and why you think so. Perhaps the real issue is that
you and they disagree about the level of expertise needed; if so, could you
elaborate on why I should prefer your standards to theirs?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d3b8ae5504838ae5bfast02vuc

I think that word expresses more than her emotions, that the Tanach is 
saying that by definition, anyone having multiple wives is setting up a 
very bad environment. I've seen polygamous families where the wives got 
along but the opposite was also true.

Ben

On 12/20/2012 5:21 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>
> BTW a co-wife is a "tzarah" in Loshon Kodesh, which well expresses how 
> any woman would feel towards another woman who was a rival for her 
> husband's love.
>

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T6...@aol.com wrote:
> Akiva Miller
>> ....We do know that Moshe Rabenu never took even a second wife....

> Actually we don't know that for sure. I recently came across an 
> opinion (unfortunately I don't remember where) that the Isha Kushis of 
> whom Miriam spoke was not Tzipporah, but another wife...

Perhaps you are referring to the Yalkut Shimoni Shemot 168 about the 
"kushit" as the woman who was given to Moshe as a wife and with whom he 
did not have relations.

<http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/Are-You-All
owed-to-Take-a-Shower-the-Night-Before-a-Taanis/5239>http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/Are-You-All
owed-to-Take-a-Shower-the-Night-Before-a-Taanis/5239


Are You Allowed to Take a Shower the Night Before a Taanis?

There is a basic difference between Tisha B'Av and the other Taanios 
Tzibur. The Rishonim say based on the gemara (Rosh HaShanah 18b) that 
fast days other than Tisha B'Av were only meant to be kept during the 
time that there were terrible decrees on Klal Yisroel. During those 
times the other fasts had the same halachos and stringencies as Tisha 
B'Av, including starting at night and being forbidden from all the inuyim.

During peaceful times the other fasts are optional. However today it 
is not optional since Klal Yisroel as a whole has already taken upon 
themselves to fast the other fasts as well. These fasts however were 
only accepted in a more lenient way, forbidding only eating and 
drinking and only starting in the morning. The Mogen Avrohom says 
(550:3 and Machatzis HaShekel) the reason they were lenient was 
because it was too hard for the tzibbur. Therefore he says a Baal 
Nefesh should take on all the inuyim.

The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say 
that we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would 
require us Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av and 
even starting it the night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also Mishna 
Brura 568:9). Therefore says the Piskei Tshuvos (550 fn. 18) a Baal 
Nefesh should start the fast with all its stringencies, such as not 
showering, the night before but with regard to not eating everyone 
may wait until the morning as if it were not a time of decrees.

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As far as I can discern, the Sha'ar Hatziyon (or Sha'ar Hatziyun) lived 150
years ago. How is it relevant to quote what he says of "today"?

On 21 December 2012 14:08, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote
>
> The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say that
> we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would require us
> Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av and even starting it
> the night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also Mishna Brura 568:9). Therefore
> says the Piskei Tshuvos (550 fn. 18) a Baal Nefesh should start the fast
> with all its stringencies, such as not showering, the night before but with
> regard to not eating everyone may wait until the morning as if it were not
> a time of decrees.
>
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The line below gets to a possible halachic nafqa mina of one's hashqafa 
as for the RZs (and many non-RZs) it is very very hard to state that 
today we are living in the times of the gezeirot.

Ben

On 12/21/2012 4:08 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
> The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say 
> that we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would 
> require us Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av and 
> even starting it the night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also Mishna 
> Brura 568:9).
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Looking at the Shaar Hatziyon, it isn't clear to me at all that one 
needs to be machmir. First of all there are other sources which don't 
bring down this chumra (AHS for example).  Secondly, he says "Now, 
getzeirot from the idol worshipers are common". Is that at all true 
today? What getzeirot?

Ben

On 12/21/2012 4:08 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
> The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say 
> that we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would 
> require us Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av and 
> even starting it the night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also Mishna 
> Brura 568:9). Therefore says the Piskei Tshuvos (550 fn. 18) a Baal 
> Nefesh should start the fast with all its stringencies, such as not 
> showering, the night before but with regard to not eating everyone may 
> wait until the morning as if it were not a time of decrees.

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On 12/21/2012 9:08 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> http://revach.net/halacha/tshuvos/A
> re-You-Allowed-to-Take-a-Shower-the-Night-Before-a-Taanis/5239
...
>> The Shaar HaTziyon brings down that today it is also possible to say
>> that we are living in times of decrees on Klal Yisroel, which would
>> require us Min HaDin to keep each fast the same way as Tisha B'Av
>> and even starting it the night before (Shela HaKaddosh see also
>> Mishna Brura 568:9). Therefore says the Piskei Tshuvos (550 fn. 18)
>> a Baal Nefesh should start the fast with all its stringencies, such
>> as not showering, the night before but with regard to not eating
>> everyone may wait until the morning as if it were not a time of
>> decrees.

This is a classic example of chumrah creep. Who gave the Piskie
Teshuvos the authority to be mechadesh such a thing?! On a ta'anis
itself it is a machlokes - it should be assur the night before? Absurd!

See (Hebrew): http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=411;
(English): http://e.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=2399

KT, GS/GV, happy Motzo'ei Shabbos showering,
YGB

The following is from Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch's essay Teveth I 
that appears in Volume II of his Collected Writings. Note the next to 
the last paragraph below.  I think it has much applicability to 
today.  (The entire essay may be read at 
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/teveth_II.pdf>Teveth 
II  Judaism and Rome)  Yitzchok Levine

In contrast with Hellas' idealism, Rome's essential character bears
the imprint of blatant material possessions. The value of objects and
actions was determined by their usefulness. Rome had no use for
anything that might elevate the mind and lead the soul toward self reflection
and ennoblement, no room for anything that might render
man more humane. All respect for ethical conduct and human rights
faded and warlike heroism and a skill in exploiting the weakness of
other nations became praiseworthy virtues. Implacable and full of
hostility towards outsiders, Rome demanded of her own sons subordination
and devotion, the same military virtues that are required of a
band of pirates. Even that loftiest of ideas called religion, and the
concept of deity, were totally submerged in the expedient utilitarianism
of the state's power. Religion, fear of gods and the priesthood were
only used as tools for power. Religion and priests were used as a public
facade to issue edicts which no one else dared to issue. Religion and
priests were needed attachments to the rapacious claws of the Roman
eagle. Priests and religion were held in high esteem only as a guarantee
of their rulers' power. Culture and the arts became only a means of
pleasure in the hands of the coarse materialistic Roman rulers. And
this pleasure reached such a degree of mindless animalism and
degeneration that depravity buried the last spark of humanity dormant
even in the crudest of men. The desire for pleasure grew to such an
extent that there was no longer anything sacred in the Roman world
which was not degraded into a mere race for possession and pleasure.

Within, the craving for power and possessions lacerated the very
entrails of Rome. Over the corpses of outlawed citizens, the victor,
cheered by a populace won over by "Bread and Circuses," draped
himself in the purple of a blood-stained toga. Beyond Rome, the
legions carried its depravity across the sea and to other lands. Under
the pretense of friendly alliances, under the flag of right and order,
under the cloak of the sacred office of a court of arbitration dispensing
justice and peace, a policy was pursued which drew the very marrow
out of its citizens leaving the dismembered and decaying bodies of
nations in the graveyard of history.

It was at the time of the most intense degradation that the state of
Judah came into contact with the Roman despots. Two brothers of the
House of the Hasmoneans, contesting each other's right to the
throne-which they had seized illegally-called upon one of the
Roman governors advancing at the head of his legions to act as
arbitrator. Jerusalem was lost at the very moment Jewish representatives
appeared before Pompey's governor Scaurus, a century before
the fall of Jerusalem. From that moment on Rome began to suck the
blood of Judea and inculcated Judea's princes and nobles with the
spirit of their system. They plunged the people into a sea of depravity
and taught them the abuse of religion, temple and priesthood, as tools
and means of power and self-aggrandizement. The spirit of Rome
corrupted the soul of the Jewish Temple. In an angry response the
majesty of God ceded the Temple and priests, king and throne to the
Roman legions, and joined its faithful nation in its exile.

Let the recollection of the days commemorating this downfall act
as a warning against the Roman spirit. We must fear Roman materialism,
not Hellenic idealism.

Chanukah is followed by Teveth. The Hellenic spirit attempted to
corrupt our Temple; it was thwarted. Initially Rome left our Temple
intact; indeed, its hirelings restored, yeah surpassed its glory and
wonders, and yet it was Rome that in the end destroyed our Temple.
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