Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 157

Tue, 20 Nov 2012

• 1. disgreements among gedolim (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Giving Tzedakah to Nachriim (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Giving Tzedakah to Nachriim (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Giving Tzedakah to Nachriim (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion (Akiva Miller)
• 6. HaKafos (was HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion) (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: HaKafos (was HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion) (Ben Waxman)
• 8. : Giving Tzedakah to Nachriim (Chana Luntz)
• 9. Re: Giving Tzedakah to Nachriim (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: HaKafos (was HONORING SHABBOS LUNCH and the New Religion) (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: corkinet (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Giving Tzedakah to Nachriim (Zev Sero)
• 13. Taam haMitzvah - Sotah Formula (Micha Berger)
• 14. No "Nishmas" on Hoshanah Rabba (MOS...@MM.HUJI.AC.IL)

I am bringing this over from areivim where the discussion was about
smartphones

<< I threw out the alon Shabbat, but I had one where Rav
Yaacov Yosef said that they are completely assur without the heter from
a true gadol and that anyone who uses one is a rasha gamur.>>

I am very bothered when some Rav says that those that disagree with him are
a rasha gamur.
Though not on the same level I have difficulty with a gemara in Baba
Metziah 21b


Rava and Abaye have a disagreement (nothing unusual). However, each one
phrases it it that any judge that doesn't judge in accordance with their
reasoning is not a judge.

I find it very hard to believe they meant what they said. My only
explanation is that it was meant as an exaggeration to  stress their own
opinions. I have no idea why they say it only here and not in other
disagreements

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 16 November 2012 05:49, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> The chiyuv of pursuing darkhei Shalom requires giving to non-Jews. (Gitin
> 61a) Different mitzvah, even if equally obligatory.

No, it doesn't. I once made this mistake on Avodah, and REMT corrected
me. "Mefarnesin aniyei akum im aniyei yisrael" is *permission*, not an
obligation. Without that it would be assur, since it's talking about a
gabai tzedakah, who has raised funds for tzedakah, which this is not. The
gemara gives him *permission* to expend tzedakah funds for a non-tzedakah
purpose, mipnei darkei shalom. But only "im aniyei yisrael", not on
their own. And the gemara in Bava Basra says explicitly that the donor
whose money was used for this gets no sechar.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 02:47:15PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: No, it doesn't. I once made this mistake on Avodah, and REMT corrected
: me. "Mefarnesin aniyei akum im aniyei yisrael" is *permission*, not an
: obligation...

WADR to REMT, the above-cited Rambam (end of Melakhim 10) says "tzivu
chakhamim", not reshus.

:                                But only "im aniyei yisrael", not on
: their own. And the gemara in Bava Basra says explicitly that the donor
: whose money was used for this gets no sechar.

Since the Rambam says it's a qiyum of vehalakhta bidrakhav, he implies
there is a chiyuv even in a hypothetical world where there were no aniyei
Yisrael. It would fit better to assume the Rambam's "bikhlal aniyei
Yisrael" means that gaba'ei tzedaqah must subvert some but not all of the
funds to a mitzvah other than the one for which the money was given. Or,
to make it clear that giving to nakhriim is not of the same priority.

But /something/ needs to be brought to the table, evem if you don't
like my suggestions, since vehalakhta bidrakhav is clearly a chiyuv,
and one that has nothing to do with whether someone would accuse us of
only caring about our own.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On 17 November 2012 19:19, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> I am transferring this discussion of this topic from Areivim to Avodah.

I'm not sure how good an idea this is.


> There is chiyuv to give tzedakah to
> certain non-Jews also, namely, to a ger toshav.

There is no such thing as a ger toshav bizman hazeh.  Ger toshav
exists only when the yovel does.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

Prof. Levine wrote:

> I really do not understand why when Jews returned to EY
> they did not adopt at least the three year cycle for
> reading the Torah. ...
> I note that many people who moved to EY adopted minhagim
> of the GRA (such as not putting on tefillin during Chol
> Moed).  So in a sense people who live in EY have dropped
> their minhagim.   Why adopt these and not the "original"
> minhagim of EY?

I see a pattern here, and the pattern applies in many other cases as well.
For example, the great majority of the original Jewish immigrants to the US
were of Sefardi minhagim; it is my understanding that the very first small
numbers of Ashkenazi immigrants had no problem assimilating into that, but
their numbers eventually reached a "critical mass", at which point the new
ones simply established their own kehilos with their own minhagim.

Rightly or wrongly, "minhag avos" beat out "minhag hamakom".

Also: I think there are additional sociological factors which induce people
to take on new minhagim which their ancestors did not have. That's my
polite way of saying, "There's also a coolness factor at work. Exotic
minhagim seem to spread more easily."

Examples of this would include Chassidic practices being adopted in the
Litvish world, such as pronunciation long ago, wearing of a kittel more
recently, and upsheren even more recently. Also: Prof. Levine mentioned how
the minhagei haGra became widespread in Eretz Yisrael, but in the last few
decades I see them frequenly in Chu"l as well (such as omitting Tefillin on
ChH"M, adding Morid HaTal in the summer, and saying HAshalom in Kaddish
during AYT).

If anyone wants to quibble over any of the examples I've raised, please
make a new thread for it. THIS thread is to discuss the general process of
how and why minhagim do change.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50a8f4647f7aa74644949st03vuc

At 08:22 AM 11/18/2012, R. Ben Waxman wrote:

>The three year cycle and haqafot are two different issues.

No they are not.  Congregations that observed the 3 year cycle did 
not have HaKafos,  since there was no completion of the Torah to 
celebrate on the second day of Shemini Atzeres in Chutz l'aretz.


>According to Professor Wikipedia (http://bit.ly/TGO7Ip) the minhag of
>haqafot is relatively late, 16th century. So according to your logic, we
>should all simply drop it.

The best discussion I know of about the development of Simchas Torah 
is Avraham Ya'ari's book Toldos Simchas Torah.  It was published by 
Mosad HaRav Kook.  If you can get a hold of a copy,  I think you will 
find it fascinating reading.

As far as simply dropping Simchas Torah,  I know of a number of women 
who would be delighted to see this happen.  They feel that they have 
no "stake"  in Simchas Torah at all.

This does not mean, of course,  that the observance of the second day 
of Shemini Atzeres would not continue outside of EY.   They just feel 
that they have no part in the dancing,  etc.  that takes place on 
Simchas Torah and would be happy if the men would go to shul and 
daven as they do on other Yomim Tovim and return home.

YL
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If the three year cycle minhag ended in the 12th century and haqafot 
started in the 16th, then the two have nothing to do with each other.

Ben

On 11/18/2012 5:44 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 08:22 AM 11/18/2012, R. Ben Waxman wrote:
>
>> The three year cycle and haqafot are two different issues.
>
> No they are not.  Congregations that observed the 3 year cycle did not 
> have HaKafos,  since there was no completion of the Torah to celebrate 
> on the second day of Shemini Atzeres in Chutz l'aretz.
>
>
>> According to Professor Wikipedia (http://bit.ly/TGO7Ip ) the minhag of
>> haqafot is relatively late, 16th century. So according to your logic, we
>> should all simply drop it.

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RMB writes:

>Is it possible to have a ger toshav today?

Machlokus up to a point.

The gemora Arachin 29a states that ain ger toshav noheg ele b'zman
shehayovel noheg, ie not b'zman hazeh.

However, there is a machlokus amongst modern day poskim (in turn based on a
machlokus amongst the rishonim Rambam versus Ra'avid - see Rambam Hilchot
Issurei Biah Perek 14 halacha 8 and the Ra'avid there) whether that means
that *all* the halachos of a ger toshav do not apply today or whether just
the obligation to financially support him ie "chayai bahem" (and a few other
dinim, see the Ra'avad) does not apply.

Ie there are those who hold that a person is a ger toshav if they renounce
idol worship (or decide to abide by the seven mitzvos bnei noach) or if
their nation as a whole does this, whether or not they are mekabel anything
in front of a beis din, and that the need to be mekabel in front of a beis
din (which is what they hold does not happen except in the times of Yovel)
is only the trigger for the obligation on Jews to sustain them financially
(and a few other dinim, again see the Ra'avad there).  See eg the discussion
in Rav Kook Mishpat Kohen (inyanei aleph) siman 58 and Tchuka L'Yisrael al
pi HaTorah section 1 Sidre Hashilton umishpat b'medina HaYehudit p13 et seq.
See also Tzitz Eliezer chelek 16, siman 60.

>We're not simply talking about an observant Noachide, but the observant
Noachide who agreed to live as a
>citizen in a Jewish Israel. Ger toshav = resident alien, quite literally.  

>Medinat Yisrael might qualify; perhaps someone today who came before
>beis din in EY and took an oath of loyalty to the Jews in it would be
>a ger toshav. But I think it's more likely that one needs a gov't that
>includes a Sanhedrin to which that court answers.

>Does anyone know of a discussion of ger toshav bizman hazeh?

As mentioned there are those (such as those mentioned above) who hold that
various halachos relating to gerei toshav apply whether or not there is a
Jewish political entity in the land of Israel, but not all such halochos.
But the other necessary aspect under pure halacha for the remainder of these
dinim is not just a state but Yovel.

On the other hand, one can perhaps argue, especially if you hold that it is
only limited aspects of the dinim of ger toshav that do not apply to a bone
fide Noahide; that what Medinat Yisrael has done/could do, by virtue of its
power under din melech as per the Ran and as explained by Rav Kook et al, is
to bring in the obligations of v'chai behem as part of dina d'malchusa
dina/din melech (ie under one of the other heads of power found within the
overall Torah political structure).  In other words, to the extent that
Medinat Yisrael has accepted upon itself the obligations of a welfare state,
which include supporting the most indigent of its citizens, by  also
accepting such people as citizens, it has in effect already brought in a
form of obligation to support under din melech, as distinct from din Torah.

That of course is premised on a particular halachic world view which gives
validity to the actions of the state within the halachic framework of din
melech, although it (probably) also needs the understanding of such people
as essentially gerei toshav. 

>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha

Regards

Chana
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At 08:22 AM 11/18/2012, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 07:19:40PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>:                                             ... Clearly if the gentile
>: is a ger toshav then there is a mitzvah to give him or her tzedakah if
>: they are in need, and one would presumably get sechar for this.
>
>Is it possible to have a ger toshav today? We're not simply talking about
>an observant Noachide, but the observant Noachide who agreed to live as a
>citizen in a Jewish Israel. Ger toshav = resident alien, quite literally.
>
>Medinat Yisrael might qualify; perhaps someone today who came before
>beis din in EY and took an oath of loyalty to the Jews in it would be
>a ger toshav. But I think it's more likely that one needs a gov't that
>includes a Sanhedrin to which that court answers.
>
>Does anyone know of a discussion of ger toshav bizman hazeh?

RSRH writes on pages 379 to 380 of volume 2 of the Horeb that a ger 
toshav is "he who expressly accepts those duties [the sheva mitzvos 
of a bnei Noach] in the presence of three persons as having been 
enjoined upon all men by God in his Revelation to Moses."  He makes 
no mention of living in Israel.

On the other hand at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_toshav it says 
that a ger toshav must live in EY.  YL


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On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 07:37:44PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> If the three year cycle minhag ended in the 12th century and haqafot  
> started in the 16th, then the two have nothing to do with each other.

I think more precisely: The one year cycle ending on Yom Tov sheini of
Shemini Atzeres was a necessary but not a sufficient cause of Simchas
Torah.

Without the standardization about our current cycle, there would have
been no event about which observances would accumulated 400 years later.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 04:06:34PM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I don't think I've ever seen a tricycle being ridden indoors.  But just  
> as a tricycle isn't used for hotza'ah, neither is a corkinet.  Also, I  
> wonder what SSK would do with adult sized tricycles?
...
> How so?  If a bicycle is problematic because it's used for hotza'ah, a  
> corkinet should be fine, just like inline skates.

I think you and I understand the connection to hotz'ah differently.

Trikes are often enough ridden in a rh"y not to qualify as designed
for hotza'ah.

Bicycles and scooters are usually ridden in a carmelis or rh"r, and
therefore qualify as designed for hotza'ah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 18 November 2012 08:22, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Is it possible to have a ger toshav today?

No.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/5114.htm#7

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

The Y-mi Sotah 2:2 (vilna daf 10b) gives this explanation for the recipe
for Mei Sotah (translation mine):
    And why water and dirt?
    Water -- from where she came.
    Dirt -- to where she is going.
    Writing -- before Whom she is destined to give [self-]judgement and
    accounting.

    Over there the mishnah says:
        Aqavia ben Mehallel would say: Look at 3 things, and you will never
        come under the control of sin. [1st half of Avos 3:1]

    R' Aba berei deR' Papi and R' Yehoshua of Sikhnin in the name of
    R Levi:
        Aqavia darshened these three from one pasuq [Qoheles 12:1], "And
        you should remember your Creator -- Bor'ekha -- in your ays of
        youth..."
        [Which can be read:] "Be'eirekha", "Borekha" [with no alef,
        or] Bor'ekha.
        Be'erekha -- from where you came.
        Borekha -- to the place where you are going
        Bor'ekha -- before What you are destined to give [self-]judgement
            and an accounting.

In all of the final quote, "you" is "at", lashon neqeivah. They are quoted
as though still speaking of the sotah.

I included this derashah because RAbRP, RYdS and R' Levi turn AbM's
thought into being about three aspects of our relationship to the
RBSO. Rather than leaving "mei'yin basa, ule'an ata holeikh" as issues
of self image without direct relationship to G-d. Anavah is not "ich
bin gornisht", it's "Compared to the One in Whose 'Tzelem' I was created
and the potential He gave me, ich bin gornisht."

(I wanted to post a question on this, but I think I'll let people enjoy
the elegance of this ta'am hamitzvah first before distracting with
questions. I put in a reminder for tomorrow.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 09:39:50 -0400
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> Usually when we enlarge Pesuqei Dezimra, we add Nishmas before
> Yishtabach. So, after saying more praise than usual, we end by
> admitting that "ilu shiru malei shirah kayam" there is no way we
> could have added enough.

> Nice thought, but... How then do we justify Hashanah Rabba, where
> we add peraqim of Tehillim, but no such disclaimer?

That's a question if you assume that the reason you gave is the
_only_ reason to add Nishmas. If you realize there are _many_ more
reasons, then the question doesn't start.

--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.


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