Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 143

Thu, 18 Oct 2012

• 1. Re: web site on shabbat (Akiva Blum)
• 2. Re: Az Yashir (Arie Folger)
• 3. No "Nishmas" on Hoshanah Rabba (SBA)
• 4. Re: Geshem or Gashem (Arie Folger)
• 5. Mar Cheshvan? (Prof. Levine)
• 6. web site on shabbat (saul newman)
• 7. Re: Mar Cheshvan? (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: web site on shabbat (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: web site on shabbat (Chana Luntz)
• 10. Web Site on Shabbos (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 11. "BETTER BITTER FROM GOD THAN SWEET FROM MAN" (cantorwolberg@cox.net)

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 5:04 AM, Joe Slater <avod...@slatermold.com> wrote:

>
>
> Furthermore, we are already rabbinically forbidden from using a
> non-Jew to perform labour for us. Why should a Jew "outside Shabbos"
> be in a privileged position with respect to a non-Jew "within
> Shabbos"? For that matter, would we be able to instruct a non-Jew  in
> a time zone "outside Shabbos" to perform labour for us "within
> Shabbos"? The rationales for forbidding amira l'akum (instructing a
> non-Jew) seem to apply no matter where the non-Jew is located; why
> would the same rationales no apply to a Jew?
>
>
The Jew outside is in the same privileged position. Neither are forbidden
from doing melachos. Remember, that a non-jew may do melachos. We may not
instruct him, nor benefit from melochos done for us. It is questonable
whether one may ask a Jew 'outside' to do a melocho, or indeed benefit, but
there is certainly no issur for him, just as there is no issur for the goy
'inside'.

Akiva
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I am not sure we need to be doresh the name and the minhag. Is it not that
it's called 'elyon because it uses far more cantillation marks that appear
above the line, so as to turn every Gibraltar into a single passuk. No
festive, not revelatory. If there is any remembrance of revelation,
which I believe there is, well, it's caused by the content, not the tune.

From: Micha Berger 
Usually when we enlarge Pesuqei Dezimra, we add Nishmas before Yishtabach.
So, after saying more praise than usual, we end by admitting that "ilu shiru
malei shirah kayam" there is no way we could have added enough.
Nice thought, but... How then do we justify Hashanah Rabba, where we add
peraqim of Tehillim, but no such disclaimer?
>>

The Likutei Maharich writes that the Minhag of the Divrei Chaim and his
rebbe the Ropshitzer was to say Nishmas on HR.
He adds that latern he found the Kolbo who also writes this.

SBA

RMB assumes the issue is whether we use pausal forms in prayer. Well, we
demonstrably do, with the pausal aaatah, but who says that's relevant? I
posit that there is no pause there, and that is why geshem is correct. I
would also say morid hatal with a patach.

The following is from today's Hakhel Email Bulletin.

[I redivided it back into paragraphs as per my original email to them.
-micha, author]

"Actually, the name of the month is one word, Marcheshvan. You are making
the common error of confusing a cute derashah (Mar meaning bitter, or
a drop of water) with actual etymology. Lehalakhah, a gett that reads
'Cheshvan' or 'Mar Cheshvan' (two words), would be pasul. See Arukh
haShulchan Even HaEzer 126:6. After explaining what 'Mar Cheshvan' would
mean, again, as derashah, he concludes one must write Marcheshvan with
one vav (two vavin are okay, bedi'eved).

"(This is a real problem. There are batei din that avoid writing gittin
in the month after Nisan rather than get involved in the machloqes of
spelling Iyar vs. Iyyar.)

"The origin of the name, like all of our month names, is from Akkadian --
the language spoken in Bavel during our galus there. (Yerushalmi Rosh
haShanah 1:2 vilna ed. 6a, Ramban Shemos 12:2) The original Akkadian is
actually 'Warachsamnu', a portomento of 'warach' (yareiach / month) +
'samnu' (shemini / eighth). The split, if there were one, would be after
the ches, not before.

"Hebrew flips v/w with m when borrowing a word. Kind of like what Aramaic
does with shin to tav when shalosh becomes teleas, sheish -> shis, mishnah
-> masnisin.... Or tzadi to ayin in words like beitzah -> bei'ah. So,
'warach' became 'merach' and in the opposite direction (m->v), 'samunu'
became 'shevan'.

"Yemenites use the vowels 'Merachshewan', not 'Marcheshvan'. They have
a folk etymology relating the word to laying the grain out to dry for
storage during the rainy season.

"Marcheshvan simply means 'eight month'. And unlike October, which also
means 'eighth month', it actually /is/ the eighth month.

"Anyway, have a great month, whatever you want to call it, and may shalom
bayis spread so that we don't need to utilize the halakhah lemaaseh I
brought from the Arukh haShulchan above!"

how  about  this one----   i would  like to  wish my NY  or  israel friends
 good shabbos   while they are  sitting  down to  the  seuda  fri nite,  by
leaving a message on tehri  answering  machine.  and in the reverse
 direction, what about the israeli calling on his  Motzash  to leave me a
message  he hopes i'll hear live....
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Just a couple of minor notes.

On 10/18/2012 11:36 AM, Prof. Levine [inadvertantly quoted me via the Hakhel
bulletin -mb]:
> "The origin of the name, like all of our month names, is from Akkadian --
> the language spoken in Bavel during our galus there. (Yerushalmi Rosh
> haShanah 1:2 vilna ed. 6a, Ramban Shemos 12:2) The original Akkadian is
> actually 'Warachsamnu', a portomento of 'warach' (yareiach / month) +
> 'samnu' (shemini / eighth). The split, if there were one, would be after
> the ches, not before.

* We would actually transliterate the Akkadian for 8 as shamnu, and not 
samnu. In scholarly works, they indicate our sh sound with an s that has 
an inverted caret over it. So it would appear as amnu (for those of you 
who can see that character). So it's even closer to Hebrew.

> "Hebrew flips v/w with m when borrowing a word. Kind of like what Aramaic
> does with shin to tav when shalosh becomes teleas, sheish -> shis, mishnah
> -> masnisin.... Or tzadi to ayin in words like beitzah -> bei'ah. So,
> 'warach' became 'merach' and in the opposite direction (m->v), 'samunu'
> became 'shevan'.

* The m/w flip is not a matter of Hebrew flipping it. Late Babylonian 
flips it. And it's not uncommon throughout earlier periods to see that 
shift.

> "Marcheshvan simply means 'eight month'. And unlike October, which also
> means 'eighth month', it actually /is/ the eighth month.

* October, of course was originally the 8th month, with March being the 
first month. That's why it's called October.

Lisa

On 10/18/2012 5:52 PM, saul newman wrote:
> how  about  this one----   i would  like to  wish my NY  or  israel 
> friends  good shabbos   while they are  sitting  down to  the  seuda 
>  fri nite,  by leaving a message on tehri  answering  machine.  and in 
> the reverse  direction, what about the israeli calling on his  Motzash 
>  to leave me a message  he hopes i'll hear live....

Today's answering machines are barely machines - just some digital 
recorder that may not even be in the phone (Ta Qoli for example).  You 
wouldn't hear a thing.

Ben

R'n Toby Katz wrote:

>>>Suppose I had a way of not only making their  phone
>>> ring, but also of turning their lights on and off or doing some other
>>> melacha that would be of use to them and not just an irritation like a
ringing
>>> phone.  Would that be mutar?

>R' Zev Sero responded:
>> Definitely.  Shabbos applies to people and animals, not objects.  "I ata
>> metzuveh al shvisas keilim."  For you it isn't Shabbos so you may work;
>> the object you're manipulating is working on Shabbos, but there's nothing
>> wrong with that

RJS writes:

>R' Zev may well be right, but I don't think he has analysed the
>problem correctly. We say that we are not commanded about shvisas
>keilim when the work of the keilim has been set in motion before
>Shabbos occurs. The same principle does not apply to setting keilim in
>motion during Shabbos. Who is to say whether we are concerned with the
>jurisdiction of the keilim or the jurisdiction of the person setting
>them in motion? Perhaps setting them in motion is forbidden regardless
>of where the operator is, so long as the keli is experiencing Shabbos.
>Certainly the *appearance* of impropriety at the moment of activation
>may exist, regardless of where the actual activation takes place, so
>it seems inappropriate to compare this to keilim which are already
>activated before Shabbos.

Well it does seem to me that, at the very least, a light (candle) that was
lit remotely in the manner that RTK describes should be assur to be then
used for havdala once motzei shabbas occurs within its location - because it
should fall within the category of an or shelo shavas (ie a light that did
not rest on shabbas) as defined on Brochos 52b-53a.  In this fascinating
sugya discussing what lights are acceptable to use for havdala - the gemora
brings a braisa which says that we can bless a light "sheshavas alav" and
not bless a light "shelo shevas".  It then asks the question - what are
these two categories - and raises the hava mina that this might mean a light
that rested from all work afilu mimelacha d'hetera - but this is refused by
another braisa which says that a light lit on shabbas for a woman in
childbirth or a sick person, we may use for havdala - so therefore the
gemora concludes that what is meant by a light that rested, is a light
sheshavas machmas melachas averah.

That *might* suggest that a light shelo shavas should also not be used for
any other mitzvah (perhaps including oneg shabbas).  I think I tend to agree
with RZS that I can't see anything wrong with what the person in chutz
l'aretz is doing (assuming it is not shabbas in chutz l'aretz and is in
Israel) in causing the kli or light to work on shabbas - but I do wonder if
there is a problem with the people living in Israel then benefitting from
whatever has been caused - eg using the light on shabbas - perhaps issues of
nolad arise (but see discussion below) or as drawn out of the issue
discussed vis a vis havdala.

>Furthermore, we are already rabbinically forbidden from using a
>non-Jew to perform labour for us. Why should a Jew "outside Shabbos"
>be in a privileged position with respect to a non-Jew "within
>Shabbos"? For that matter, would we be able to instruct a non-Jew  in
>a time zone "outside Shabbos" to perform labour for us "within
>Shabbos"? The rationales for forbidding amira l'akum (instructing a
>non-Jew) seem to apply no matter where the non-Jew is located; why
>would the same rationales no apply to a Jew?

Because amira l'akum is a rabbinic gezera, and the gezera applies to non
Jews and not to Jews.  This is the rationale commonly given which allows a
ben chutz l'aretz spending yom tov in Israel to especially ask a ben aretz
to do melacha for them on second day Yom Tov shel galios.

Now it does appear reasonably accepted that a ben chutz l'aretz can then
benefit from a melacha eg a light that a ben aretz lights for them on their
second day Yom Tov.  And that, it would seem to me, ought to therefore rule
out nolad as an issue for our case.  Because it is just as much nolad
whether it is lit by a Jew who is not required to keep second day yom tov as
by a Jew chutz l'aretz doing it remotely.  BUT it would seem to me that
there would be a difference if you look at this question of flames resting
as per Brochos 52b-53a.  Because, on second day yom tov, while it may be
second day yom tov for the chutz l'aretz Jew, it is certainly not second day
yom tov from the point of view of the flame - and so surely any work it did
on that day after first day Yom Tov would be, in the language of the gemora
sheshavas machmas melachas averah - whereas when lit by a Jew remotely from
a place that is not yet shabbas, the flame would not be resting machmas
melachas averah as it is located in shabbas.  That might make it more like a
light lit by a non Jew in location - and would seem to raise the question as
to whether the various prohibitions on benefiting from a light lit by a non
Jew for a Jew is solely because of amira l'akum gezeros or there is
something else mixed in as well.  Hmm, interesting.

>Joe Slater

Regards

Chana

you are causing circuits to pass electricity or not depending on
which capacitors in the CCD by moving around in front of it. 

If you have a well for water, just by running the water, you cause
the pump to activate. Wells have pumps for the water. Does that
mean you should fill up receptacles with water prior to Shabbos?
If you have a septic system, the pump is activated when you flush 
your toilets. Therefore, are you not allowed to flush toilets on Shabbos
if you have a septic system?

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The dove returns with an olive leaf.
This (olive branch) has become the symbolism of hope and peace.
Interestingly, the dollar bill has 13 olive leaves on the back: this corresponded to the original 13 colonies.
However, in Judaism, 13 is a significant and positive number: God's 13 attributes of mercy; Rambam's 13 principles of faith;
Bar Mitzvah age; 13 months in a Jewish leap year; Purim victory took place on the 13th day of Adar, etc.

In this week's Torah portion, our commentators teach that the olive leaf which the dove returns with has a very bitter taste. 
Rashi writes (8:11) "Better that my food be bitter but from God's hand, than sweet as honey but dependent on mortal man." 
R' Hirsch elaborates. For a full year, the dove could not earn its own food: hunger forced it to rely on Noah's kindness. Then
it found a bitter leaf that it would ordinarily not eat ? and carried it back to Noah, preaching the lesson of the Sages,
that even the bitterest food eaten in freedom is better than the sweetest food given in servitude. 

"Better eight years of hard work in Yale, then eight days of hard work in Jail"  rw 




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