Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 139

Fri, 12 Oct 2012

• 1. Re: Quantifying shade in a Succah (hankman)
• 2. naanuim with hoshanos (M Cohen)
• 3. Re: Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Zev Sero)
• 4. re qualifications to give hashgacha (martin brody)
• 5. Re: Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Harry Weiss)
• 6. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (h Lampel)
• 7. is life a simulation ? (saul newman)
• 8. Re: is life a simulation ? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Gmar Chasima Tovah - Rav Goldvicht (David Wacholder)
• 10. Re: No "Nishmas" on Hoshanah Rabba (Joel C. Salomon)
• 11. l'mori sheyichyeh (actually abbreviated lamed mem shin yud heh) (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier)
• 13. Re: Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Zev Sero)

I had previously posted the following issue reproduced below. After looking
up the relevant SA 631:2, it is ?seems? that the halacha in SA is that so
long as rov of the succah is tsilsa niruba michamsa then it is kosher. But
I am still not sure if that is really the intent of the SA. The SA seems to
specifically limit this pesak to the case where the rov is just 2 mashehus
more shade and the mi?ut is just missing one mashehu. I speculate the
reason for this narrow specificity is exactly the same point as my
question. The SA is limiting this pesak to where the percentage shade vs
shadow is still almost 50/50 which is why the SA makes the difference only
on the order of a mashehu. But if the density of sechach varied to a much
larger order of magnitude then 361:2 might not hold. It is these sort of
issues of how to integrate the degree of shade of the surface of the
sechach that are troubling me whether/how one may gerrymander the borders
of integration of the areas to obtain s
 hape that is more shade.
--------------------------------------------
I previously posted in part:
Or even better if three of the quadrants were at 80% shade but the
remaining quadrant was only 40% shade would the succah be kosher? Would the
single quadrant in the last case be treated as sechach pasul of 4 X 4 or
would we integrate over the entire succah (8 X 8) thus making the entire
succah tsilsa meruba michamsa? What if the last square of 40 % was not 4 X
4 but only 3.5 X 3.5 tephachim? (Are we treating the inadequate quantity of
sechach kosher as though it were sechach posul?) Thus it would not pasul
the succah with less than 4 X 4? 

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
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The rama says that our custom is to both do naanuim with hoshanos, and to
bang it on the floor.

I always thought that naanuim with hoshanos meant give it a little shake, 
since I do not see anyone in the standard yeshivas (Ner Israel, Lakewood,
telz, etc) doing anything more than this.

Recently I was at a shul where the rabbi announced to all that the proper
minhag for naanuim with hoshanos 
means to shake it like the lulav (4 ruchos+up/down)

what do you know about this?
What do your communities and Rabbanim do?

Thanks,
Mordechai cohen

On 11/10/2012 5:27 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:

> Are there any halachic qualifications for someone to give supervision?  If so, what are they?

Being an observant Jew.  The basis of hashgacha is eid echad ne'eman
be'issurin.  This is an explicit halacha mid'oraisa, and the Torah
does not place any restrictions on it.  If one doesn't know whether
the machshir is a reliable person, one should inquire of those who
are likely to know him or of him.

>  Should there be some international organization that certifies the
> kashrus certifiers as being qualified?

Anyone can create such an organisation, but it would have no authority
and no right to impose its views on anybody else.  So it would depend
for its credibility on the same criteria by which people judge
hashgachos themselves.

There is one small machshir in NYC who, knowing that he is not well-
known, posts letters in all his places from a well-known rov certifying
that he is a trustworthy person, and that one may rely on his hechsher.
And various organisations such as the cRc, R Eidlitz, and the Detroit
Vaad, post lists of "recommended" hechsherim, while not commenting on
those omitted.  So the process you're envisioning has already begun.
But it can never be a mandatory one, because the halacha is otherwise.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

Rabbi Dovid Cohen-Why Foods Need Hashgacha: The Differences Between
Recommended and Non-Recommended Hashgachos

*or why we need 1200 (and growing) agencies world wide*

Good examples of issues in Kashrut which the lay person might not be aware
of including:
*processing ingredients not required to be listed  in the ingredients list

*Misleading.Any substance used in machinery that can migrate to the food
product must be listed*

*natural flavors means the source is natural and it has flavor (e.g.
natural vanilla flavor could come from a chicken, not a vanilla bean, and
still be called natural vanilla flavor)

*Again, misleading. Natural vanilla flavor could indeed come from chicken,
but if it does, then the chicken is a significant ingredient and MUST be
listed, as any major component of "natural flavours" must be. If it is not
significant (i.e. mixed up with many other flavourings) it is batel b'shisim
*

*canned products may require technical issue resolution (e.g. bugs, bishul
akum)

* Still misleading. Look for bugs yourself. If you can't see them, they are
not there. And as for bishul akum, not sure what product he is talking
about, not fit for a kings table or can be eaten raw take care of
everything I can think of, but even if there is something, steaming and
smoking is not cooking*

Best
Martin Brody
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From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 05:27:35AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> What stops me even though I am not a rabbi from giving supervision on who
>> knows what?

> Nothing. After all, eid echad ne'eman be'issurin.... an observant
> manufacturer is ne'eman from his chezqas kashrus, and anyone else
> ... if they are mesichim lefi tumam.

> In today's world, the hardest part of hashgachah is knowing the logistics
> of manufacture, not the din. I would faster trust someone literate in
> the industry who has his LOR on speed dial than a dayan who doesn't.

That is totally correct. There are good and there are and there are
bad hashgacot.

Most of the hasgachot listed are tiny with a Rav or group of Rabbinim in
a community certifying for their community. They often do not certify
any manufactured products, just the local butcher, baker and candlestick
maker.

In most communities most people in complying with Aseh Lecho Rav use
their LOR, who is in charge of the local stores.

The bigger problem is with organizations that sound like they are a
local Vaaad, but are just one person, who may or may not be reliable.

T6...@aol.com  Re: [Avodah] pronouncing shem hashem many ...insist that 
Americans (who say "oh" for cholam) do not pronounce Hebrew vowels 
correctly, and that "oy" is the correct pronunciation..

Thirty years ago Yehoshua Bressler published a booklet on the 
pronunciation of Hebrew, based upon Torah sources. He points out that 
Rabbeynu Yehuda HaLevy in the the Kuzari (2:80), dealing with that 
subject, groups together the kametz [''gadol''], cholom, and shuruk as 
sounds respectively formed by the lips closing in closerand closer. 
This, YB points out, makes the cholom neither an "oy" sound nor a long 
"a" sound (both which involve the sides of the tongue).


---Zvi Lampel
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a philosophy article
http://people.uncw.edu/guinnc/courses/Spring11/517/Simulation.pdf  posed
the possiblity that  we are just  living  a simulation....
but  physicists  think they can prove it one way or the other....
http://io9.com/5950543/physicists-say-t
here-may-be-a-way-to-prove-that-we-live-in-a-computer-simulation



....maybe  some people  live their life  as if  it's just  a simulation,
not for keeps...
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On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:50:16AM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: a philosophy article
: http://people.uncw.edu/guinnc/courses/Spring11/517/Simulation.pdf  posed
: the possiblity that  we are just  living  a simulation....
: but  physicists  think they can prove it one way or the other....
: http://io9.com/5950543/physicists-s
: ay-there-may-be-a-way-to-prove-that-we-live-in-a-computer-simulation

I read a little (a few articles on arXive, and a couple of books on
a popularization level) on the It-from-Bit concept in contemporary
physics. (That nickname was coined by John Wheeler. Other notable people
in the physics community pursuing this idea includes James Gleick and
Seth Lloyd.)

I think they're abusing Occam's Razor. They think that if they can fully
describe the behavior of the universe using Quantum Computing as a model,
it means that the universe is just software. That's not so much saying
that the universe is a simulation as saying that a perfect simulation is
theoretically possible. They're confusing the map (the math describing
events) with the terrain (the objects and events themselves).

That said, if the universe is "just" software, it redefines what "real"
means. It doesn't make us a simulation, as that would imply being less
real than something else.

Alternatively, we are less real than Something Else:
    Yesod hayesodos ve'amud hachokhmos
    leida sheyei sham Matzui Rishon ...
    vekhol hanimtza'im...
    lo nimtze'u ela mei'amitzas haMotze'o.
    ...
    Lefikakh, ein Amitaso ke'amitas echad meihem...

            - Yesodei haTorah 1:1,3 (see also 1:2, 2:9-10)

It could be that Koach haDimyon will prove a suitable metaphor for Maaseh
Bereishis in the Information Age, much as "chomer beyad hayotzer" and
amirah have in the past.

And I'm also reminded of Rn Gila Atwood's signature (c. 1999, vol 4)
which included the thought "We are pixels in G-d's imagination."

It was discussed back then in the thread "a humble pixel"
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=H#HUMBLE%20PIXEL>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Just adding - Yom Kippur we are passive - so the Giver or Forgiver is the
dominant role.


When it comes to the actuality, there also must be a receiver. That
includes needing, and recognizing that need - prayer and thanks.

That is symbolized by Sukkot the ideal, and also the Repentant Sukkot  II
after the Slicha of Yom Kippur.

That serves as "accepting the  service" - signing and sealing the deal.


Perhaps there is a hint from Midrash Rabbah Shmos that EHKEH three tim;es
denotes Hashem's unilateral giving.  Once the "receiver" was in place -
only the HAVAYAH name is used - it ncludes relativity and thanks.


All that is relative to Sukkot.


Extending the idea - perhaps Shmini Atzeret may be personal thanks
directly, as opposed to "attaching recognition  to the gift".


Does that help clarify?




-- 
David Wacholder
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On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Usually when we enlarge Pesuqei Dezimra, we add Nishmas before Yishtabach.
> So, after saying more praise than usual, we end by admitting that "ilu shiru
> malei shirah kayam" there is no way we could have added enough.
>
> Nice thought, but... How then do we justify Hashanah Rabba, where we add
> peraqim of Tehillim, but no such disclaimer?

IIRC (from when I used their ChH"M tefillin minyan in Borough Park),
Bobov does say Nishmas.

?Chesky

As in kein nireh lmori sheyichyeh. Has anyone seen anything on this term
used in tosfot? It appears in meilah 4 times, in nedarim once and in makot
19 times.  Just seems like a very odd distribution - almost as if there
were a specific baal tosfot who wrote on maakot and little else?
KT
Joel Rich
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doesnt "eid echad ne'eman be'issurin" actually mean that we dont need 
hashgocho and hechsher organizations? eid echad ne'eman actually means 
that the proprietor of any food establishment is trusted. It does not 
mean that it must be known he is a reliable person - it means he is 
assumed to be a reliable person, unless known otherwise.

So, on that concept, why do we need hechsher organizations? As you said, 
the Torah does not place restrictions on this halacha, so we should 
trust every owner or administrator of a food establishment to tell us 
his food is kosher or mehadrin. I am even willing to submit that this 
would only apply if the owner/manager is a frum Jew. But in such a 
situation, why would a hechsher be needed?

kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier.fam...@gmail.com

Advertise on Life in Israel blog!! See 
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/p/advertise-on-life-in-israel.html for
more information!

http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://rabbirunningamarathon.blogspot.com

On 11/10/2012 5:11 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 11/10/2012 5:27 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
>> Are there any halachic qualifications for someone to give 
>> supervision?  If so, what are they?
>
> Being an observant Jew.  The basis of hashgacha is eid echad ne'eman
> be'issurin.  This is an explicit halacha mid'oraisa, and the Torah
> does not place any restrictions on it.  If one doesn't know whether
> the machshir is a reliable person, one should inquire of those who
> are likely to know him or of him.
>
>>  Should there be some international organization that certifies the
>> kashrus certifiers as being qualified?
>
> Anyone can create such an organisation, but it would have no authority
> and no right to impose its views on anybody else.  So it would depend
> for its credibility on the same criteria by which people judge
> hashgachos themselves.
>
> There is one small machshir in NYC who, knowing that he is not well-
> known, posts letters in all his places from a well-known rov certifying
> that he is a trustworthy person, and that one may rely on his hechsher.
> And various organisations such as the cRc, R Eidlitz, and the Detroit
> Vaad, post lists of "recommended" hechsherim, while not commenting on
> those omitted.  So the process you're envisioning has already begun.
> But it can never be a mandatory one, because the halacha is otherwise.
>

On 12/10/2012 5:41 AM, Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier wrote:
> doesnt "eid echad ne'eman be'issurin" actually mean that we dont need
> hashgocho and hechsher organizations? eid echad ne'eman actually means
> that the proprietor of any food establishment is trusted. It does not
> mean that it must be known he is a reliable person - it means he is
> assumed to be a reliable person, unless known otherwise.
>
> So, on that concept, why do we need hechsher organizations? As you
> said, the Torah does not place restrictions on this halacha, so we
> should trust every owner or administrator of a food establishment to
> tell us his food is kosher or mehadrin. I am even willing to submit
> that this would only apply if the owner/manager is a frum Jew. But in
> such a situation, why would a hechsher be needed?

The BY says any Jew has a chezkas kashrus, even for commerce, so long as
we have no reason to suspect him; presumably we still need to know that
he's Jewish.  The Ramo says no, at his home this is true but at his shop
we have to know that he is an observant Jew, and thus has a chezkas kashrus.
But with the size of our communities today we usually don't know the
proprietor at all, and have no idea how observant he is.  We don't see him
in shul, we don't see him on Shabbos, we don't know what he eats, or how
his wife behaves, or anything.  And indeed he may *not* be an observant Jew,
or a Jew at all, in which case he certainly needs a hechsher.

If you know the proprietor, and wouldn't have any qualms eating at his home,
then indeed there is no reason why you should require him to have a hechsher
in his shop.  There used to be many places that had no outside hechsher but
everyone trusted, and there are still a few.  Mrs Rubashkin's restaurant on
13th Ave, for instance, was trusted by *everybody* (except one member of
this list, apparently), because she ensured that it was strictly kosher,
and was stricter than any hashgacha would be.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon


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