Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 138

Thu, 11 Oct 2012

• 1. Re: More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Ben Waxman)
• 2. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (T6...@aol.com)
• 3. R. Chayim Ozer Grodzinski on the Writings of RSRH (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Who did Hakhel? (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. Re: More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Quantifying shade in a Succah (hankman)
• 7. Chiddush of Yaval (Liron Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: Quantifying shade in a Succah (hankman)
• 9. Unguarded Chalav Yisrael (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Unguarded Chalav Yisrael (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Unguarded Chalav Yisrael (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Unguarded Chalav Yisrael (Zev Sero)
• 13. Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Micha Berger)
• 15. No "Nishmas" on Hoshanah Rabba (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Qualifications to Give Hashgacha (Rich, Joel)

Rav Goldvitch has an article in this year's Torah to Go
<http://j.mp/QNS9lB> in which he postulates (based on a few Chidushai
Ha Gra), that Hoshanna Rabba (and Sukkot as a whole) comes to preserve
the din (presumably good) that someone received on YK. It is not
enough to receive a blessing, one has to take steps to preserve that
blessing. Avraham lived a life a constant progress (Lech Lecha), he never
rested on his laurels. Ezra, after Bnei Yisrael received the blessing of
Eretz Yisrael, took a step to make sure that Am Yisrael would be able
to keep that blessing - he praying that the yetzer for avodah tzara be
wiped out.

This is what Sukkot and in particular Hoshanna Rabba are supposed to
help us do.

Ben

 
From: saul newman <newman...@gmail.com>

>> rSBA  sent out in a mailing a reminder that it's not 'adenoi' or
adinoi' , but  rather 'adoy noy' . why is it not 'ado noy' ?
isn't 'adoy noy' a word spelled  alef-dalet-vav-YOD-nun-yod? <<

 
 
>>>>

 
Many people, obviously including R' SBA, pronounce the cholam vowel as  
"oy" rather than "oh." My husband is one of many who insist that Americans (who 
 say "oh" for cholam) do not pronounce Hebrew vowels correctly, and that 
"oy" is  the correct pronunciation..


--Toby  Katz
=============



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The following is from Dr. Solomon Ehrmann's Essay "Rabbi S. R. Hirsch 
as a Pioneer of Judaism in Eretz Yisroel and in the Diaspora" appears 
on pages 67 - 113 in the Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer Jubilee Volume 
published in 1962.

Nearly half a century ago, in a
preface to the treatise "Metav Higayon," one of the greatest rabbinical
leaders of that generation, Rabbi Chayim Ozer Grodzinski (of Vilna),
justified the necessity for a Hebrew translation of the works of Samson
Raphael Hirsch in the following words: "In our day, when so many
have strayed from the ways to the understanding of the Torah and
the fear of the Lord-and among them are many who have done
so unwittingly, from simple lack of knowledge-it is a sacred duty
to enlighten their eyes through the light in the works of the great
Gaon and religious scholar (Hirsch). He knew the sick of his day
and he knew, too, how to bring them spiritual healing. His works
constitute a veritable healing spring for those whose souls are suffering.
His name, like that of all the others who have been a
blessing to the community as a whole, will live on from generation
to generation."

In light of this,  I can only wonder why the study of the writings of 
RSRH are not part of the "curriculum" of all yeshivos from high 
school and beyond.  YL
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From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>

>>  Compare  with the first 11 chapters of Sefer Devarim, which Malbim 
understands
to be a  compilation of eleven different speeches that Moshe Rabbenu gave 
over
the  course of the 38 years from Chorev to Kadesh Barnea.  Hashem edited  
these
11 speeches into one -- that's why it's Toras Hashem even though all  the 
words
are Moshe's -- and told him to deliver it as his parting  speech.  Of course
it's no surprise that the Ultimate Editor did a more  seamless job on 
Devarim
than whoever edited Koheles  managed.<<

-- 
Zev  Sero         
z...@sero.name    



>>>>>
 
I recently read somewhere (my apologies if it was right here on Avodah)  
that Moshe Rabbeinu said all of Sefer Devarim in a series of speeches and it  
then became Torah when Hashem dictated MR's own words to him and told him to 
 write them down.  Not that Hashem dictated the speeches before they were  
delivered but that He dictated them in written form after MR had delivered 
them  orally.
 

--Toby  Katz
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On 7/10/2012 2:52 AM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> It is not
> enough to receive a blessing, one has to take steps to preserve that
> blessing.

And daily tefillah is to draw on that blessing.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

I imagine that the question I will describe below is probably black letter
law (in halacha) just I am not aware of what  it is. The clear halacha that
I am aware of is that of 3 X 3 tephachim of air would pasul a succah ketana
(7 X 7) but in a succah gedola the succah would be kosher but one should
not sit beneath the open air. Similar halacha for 4 X 4 tephachim of
sechach posul. 

My question relates to how we calculate (mathematically integrate) the
density of the sechach for the law relating to the pesool of chamsa meruba
mitsilsa. So for example to keep it simple without gradual changes if we
had a succah that was 8 tephachim square, but had the sechach density
different in the four (4 X 4)quadrants such that they were alternating from
80% shade in one quadrant, and only 40% shade in the next and so on. Or
even better if three of the quadrants were at 80% shade but the remaining
quadrant was only 40% shade would the succah be kosher? Would the single
quadrant in the last case be treated as sechach pasul of 4 X 4 or would we
integrate over the entire succah (8 X 8) thus making the entire succah
tsilsa meruba michamsa? What if the last square of 40 % was not 4 X 4 but
only 3.5 X 3.5 tephachim? (Are we treating the inadequate quantity of
sechach kosher as though it were sechach posul?) Thus it would not pasul
the succah with less than 4 X 4? 

In general over how small an area are we concerned with tsilsa meruba
mechamsa? For example if you have a succah gedola  with alternating square
of 2.5 tephachim square of air, with densely covered (say 90%) adjacent
rectangles say of 2.5 X 2.6 - would that be kosher? What if in the same
dimensions but different densities we put say 20% density instead of just
air in the 2.5 squares and just 51% cover in the 2.5 X 2.6 rectangles ?
what then?

Kol Tuv veChag Sameach

Chaim Manaster

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The Chumash says that Yaval was "Avi Yoshev Ohel u'Mikneh", which Rashi
explains to be the first one to shepherd cattle and take them from place to
place (here for a month, there for a month) to graze.

But Hevel was a shepherd before Yaval, so what was Yaval's chiddush?

Two possibilities I thought of:
1) He was the first to shepherd cattle, as opposed to sheep. I don't really
like this answer, because is that really such a vastly different thing?
2) He was the first to move his home with the animals as they finished
grazing. I like this answer more, but it leaves another question: What did
Hevel do when there was no more grass for his sheep to eat?

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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Over Yom Tov I had a chance to refresh my memory and looked up the relevant
SA. It is SA 631:2,4. But my questions still stand. As one reduces the size
of the checkboard sections with and without adequate shade, how does one
make this calculation. Will how we gerrymander the borders of these
different areas make a difference?

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
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A co worker stores his Chalav Yisrael milk in the office kitchen. It got
me wondering....

The problem with CY can happen any time after milking. But I never heard
of someone saying that chalav haneelam min ha'ayin loses its CY status.
And this is after the milk left FDA (or your local equivalent), so those
of us who drink chalav hacompanies would be equally impacted.

I don't think "highly unlikely for anyone to bring mare milk to work"
is sufficient, since we're talking about a taqanah, not a pesaq based
on rov. I don't think it was ever a cheshash that the fraction of milk
that got adulterated was close enough to 50:50 to qualify as a safeiq.
The taqanah is beyond the requirements of the pesaq deOraisa.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 10/10/2012 4:01 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> A co worker stores his Chalav Yisrael milk in the office kitchen. It got
> me wondering....
>
> The problem with CY can happen any time after milking. But I never heard
> of someone saying that chalav haneelam min ha'ayin loses its CY status.
> And this is after the milk left FDA (or your local equivalent), so those
> of us who drink chalav hacompanies would be equally impacted.

There's no chashash that someone will pour his milk into your bottle.
He might, if no one is looking, take milk *from* your bottle, but why
would anyone secretly *give* you milk?  To repay what he "borrowed"
when the general supply ran out?  That seems very unlikely, and not
something we need to worry about.


> I don't think "highly unlikely for anyone to bring mare milk to work"
> is sufficient, since we're talking about a taqanah, not a pesaq based
> on rov. I don't think it was ever a cheshash that the fraction of milk
> that got adulterated was close enough to 50:50 to qualify as a safeiq.
> The taqanah is beyond the requirements of the pesaq deOraisa.

I think you mean 1:60, not 50:50.  1:60 of treife milk would be nosen
ta'am, and thus if there was a serious cheshash that it might be present
we'd have a safek de'oraisa.  Indeed RMF says that in places where such
a cheshash exists the whole concept of CY doesn't apply, because there
was no need for Chazal to make a gezeira.  The whole gezeira applies only
where there is *no* real cheshash, but Chazal were nevertheless concerned.
And that's why we can safely limit it to what Chazal actually forbade,
which according to him was only at the point of transfer from reshus goy
to reshus yisroel.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 04:01:28PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
:         I don't think it was ever a cheshash that the fraction of milk
: that got adulterated was close enough to 50:50 to qualify as a safeiq.
: The taqanah is beyond the requirements of the pesaq deOraisa.

Let me rephrase:
I don't think there ever was a cheshash that something close to 50% of
all milk left unwatched was adulterated (by a ratio of more than 1/60),
that we would say CY is straight pesaq of safeiq deOraisa lechumerah.
Thus, this a taqanah requiring something beyond pesaq.

And once there is a taqanah to worry about something beyond the usual
safeiq, why isn't the worry that something happened to the milk when
you weren't watching included? What makes the transition from office
fridge to my coworker's hand different than the original departure from
the farm to (eventually) the Jewish consumer?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

On 10/10/2012 5:26 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> And once there is a taqanah to worry about something beyond the usual
> safeiq, why isn't the worry that something happened to the milk when
> you weren't watching included? What makes the transition from office
> fridge to my coworker's hand different than the original departure from
> the farm to (eventually) the Jewish consumer?

The difference is that the farmer owned the milk, there was no reason
for him *not* to add whatever mare's milk he happened to have available,
and every reason for him to do so.  But there's no reason and it would
be bizarre for someone to secretly make you a present of some ordinary
non-CY milk, let alone some of his precious mare's or camel's milk that
he brought to work.  Especially when just handling your bottle carries
the risk that someone will walk in and suspect him of stealing your milk,
which would be embarrassing.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

The Kosher Supervision Guide 2013 - 2014 Edition published by Kashrus 
Magazine (http://www.kashrusmagazine.com/) lists 1,151 hashgachos 
worldwide. There are 130 listed for Brooklyn, NY!  I find this number 
astounding.

To my mind this raises the question "Who is qualified to give kashrus 
supervision?"  It seems that anyone with the title rabbi can give 
supervision.  Indeed, why not just anyone even without the title 
rabbi?  What stops me even though I am not a rabbi from giving 
supervision on who knows what?

Are there any halachic qualifications for someone to give 
supervision?  If so, what are they?  Who makes sure that a certain 
person who is giving supervision satisfies these 
qualifications?   Should there be some international organization 
that certifies the kashrus certifiers as being qualified?

At the moment it seems to me that kashrus supervision is totally 
unregulated and that this is not desirable.

YL

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 05:27:35AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> To my mind this raises the question "Who is qualified to give kashrus  
> supervision?"  It seems that anyone with the title rabbi can give  
> supervision.  Indeed, why not just anyone even without the title rabbi?  
> What stops me even though I am not a rabbi from giving supervision on who 
> knows what?

Nothing. After all, eid echad ne'eman be'issurin. Halachically, you don't
need a hashgachah at all -- an observant manufacturer is ne'eman from
his chezqas kashrus, and anyone else is ne'eman if they are mesichim
lefi tumam.

In today's world, the hardest part of hashgachah is knowing the logistics
of manufacture, not the din. I would faster trust someone literate in
the industry who has his LOR on speed dial than a dayan who doesn't.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Usually when we enlarge Pesuqei Dezimra, we add Nishmas before Yishtabach.
So, after saying more praise than usual, we end by admitting that "ilu shiru
malei shirah kayam" there is no way we could have added enough.

Nice thought, but... How then do we justify Hashanah Rabba, where we add
peraqim of Tehillim, but no such disclaimer?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

From:     http://torahmusings.com/2012/07/audio-roundup-46/

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/77780
1/Rabbi_Dovid_Cohen/Why_Foods_Need_Hashgacha:_The_Differences_Between_R
ecommended_and_Non-Recommended_Hashgachos
Rabbi Dovid Cohen-Why Foods Need Hashgacha: The Differences Between Recommended and Non-Recommended Hashgachos 
Good examples of issues in Kashrut which the lay person might not be aware of including:
*processing ingredients not required to be listed  in the ingredients list
*natural flavors means the source is natural and it has flavor (e.g.
natural vanilla flavor could come from a chicken, not a vanilla bean, and
still be called natural vanilla flavor)
*canned products may require technical issue resolution (e.g. bugs, bishul akum)
Important discussion of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly in Kashrut
supervision and why the CRC can't recommend all supervisions(good, bad are
obvious, ugly is supervision by sincere, well known, trusting rabbis who
don't have the technical knowledge and/or the forensic skills to be
effective).


http://torahmusings.com/2012/05/audio-roundup-39/

avascript:popupMsg('f=media/Rabbi/Yosef_Eisen/2012-05-15/Are_all_Kosher_Sup
ervisions_the_same/Rabbi__Yosef_Eisen__Are_all_Kosher_Supervisions_the_same
__2012-05-15.mp3')
Rabbi Yosef Eisen-Are all Kosher Supervisions the same
No names named, but insight into some of the technical issues as to what is
an acceptable hashgacha (sounds like it's acceptable if most others in the
know accept it).  Importance in hashgacha business of networking for
expertise and sufficient  geographical coverage (poison analogy - would you
take a chance with this person?).  Plugs for only buying in supermarkets
that are under hashgacha, Pot Yisrael and Chalav Yisrael (if you spend
money on shops, you should spend on this) [me, what about if you're taking
scholarship money - do you have the right to demand the community pay for a
chumrah that others in the community don't keep?].




KT
Joel Rich
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