Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 137

Sun, 07 Oct 2012

• 1. pronouncing shem hashem (saul newman)
• 2. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (was Definition of Religion) (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (was Definition of Religion) (Zev Sero)
• 7. Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (was Definition of Religion) (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: pronouncing shem hashem (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Hoshana (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Re: Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Theodicy and Prayer (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Who did Hakhel? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Who did Hakhel? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Theodicy and Prayer (Ben Waxman)
• 16. Nice Vort to "BEGIN" (cantorwolb...@cox.net)

rSBA  sent  out  in a mailing  a reminder  that  it's  not   'adenoi'  or
 adinoi'     , but rather 'adoynoy'       .  why is  it  not  'adonoy'   ?
    isn't   'adoynoy'  a  word  spelled  alef-dalet-vav-YOD-nun-yod?
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On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 08:30:23AM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: rSBA  sent  out  in a mailing  a reminder  that  it's  not   'adenoi'  or
: adinoi'     , but rather 'adoynoy'       .  why is  it  not  'adonoy'   ?
: isn't   'adoynoy'  a  word  spelled  alef-dalet-vav-YOD-nun-yod?

You presume your conclusion when you assume that a cholam is more genuine
than a choilam, and therefore "oy" must be chalam + yud rather than
a choilam.

For that matter, why not adeinai? Why are all these products of allegedly
Lithuanian yeshivos pronouncing a Poilish choilam rather than a Litvish
cheilam? For that matter, unlike the choilam, which is uniquely Poilish,
there is a Yemenite cheilem. Perhaps it's one of the variants that date
back to differences between the havaros of the various shevatim!

RAYKook pasqened that one ought to daven in one's traditional havarah. So,
we ought to be saying choilam, cheilam, chaulam, etc... or even cholam
-- as per our patrilineal ancestors. It is only people who can't do so
consistently that he held bedi'eved could be yotzei Shema or qeri'as
haTorah reading with an Israeli accent.

I would assume the same is true for the modern, Anglo, rounded cholam.

What acharonim warn against is that it's common when speaking too quickly
to slur the cholam into a schwa, and that's wrong according to all. From
your email, it appears RSBA reminded everone of this point.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I would suggest a slightly different criterion. Rather than trying to
objectively assess whether this particular food is or isn't better if
made on YT, is there any reason why this couldn't be taken subjectively?

Perhaps all the halakhah is saying is that you should prepare whatever
you can before YT, unless you are delaying the cooking to right before
the meal for the purpose of providing better tasting food.

There is an implied chumrah... If you are making fruit soup on YT, not
because it tastes better that way (perhaps no one in the family cares
enough about fruit soup for that to be a motivator) but because you're
procrastinating, or wanted to do something else erev YT, you would still
be violating the taqanah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

On 10/5/2012 12:17 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 08:30:23AM -0700, saul newman wrote:
> : rSBA  sent  out  in a mailing  a reminder  that  it's  not   'adenoi'  or
> : adinoi'     , but rather 'adoynoy'       .  why is  it  not  'adonoy'   ?
> : isn't   'adoynoy'  a  word  spelled  alef-dalet-vav-YOD-nun-yod?
>
> You presume your conclusion when you assume that a cholam is more genuine
> than a choilam, and therefore "oy" must be chalam + yud rather than
> a choilam.
>    

But it is.  It's a vowel; not a vowel and a consonant.

Lisa

On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 12:22:40PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> But it is.  It's a vowel; not a vowel and a consonant.

As noted in Siddur Bnei Ashkenaz, pg 51 (the beginning of an anti-choilam
essay) <http://j.mp/SI0MKH> or
http://opensiddur.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/S
iddur-Bnei-Ashkenaz-v.1.12.3.1.pdf#page=51

There are four traditional Ashkenazic versions of cholam, and all of them
are dipthongs. But the author doesn't ascribe the /w/ or /y/ rounding
at the end to a consonant (yud or vav), but to the associated vowel
(chiriq or shuruq).

Poland, Austria-Hungary:        qamatz+chiriq   (compare to English: toy)

Lithuania, Russia:              segol+chiriq    (pay)

N. Germany, Holland:            patach+shuruq   (how)

S. Germany, Switzerland,        qamatz+shutuq   (go)
France, Latvia, England,
N. America:

In any case, if you want to use sevara to trump minhag avos, then you need
to use an Israeli or Sepharadic cholam rather than any of these dipthongs.
I just noted, though, that RAYK holds that minhag avos wins out in issues
of havarah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 5/10/2012 1:25 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I would suggest a slightly different criterion. Rather than trying to
> objectively assess whether this particular food is or isn't better if
> made on YT, is there any reason why this couldn't be taken subjectively?

I took it for granted that this is so, but derech agav the poskim give
us some culinary knowledge that perhaps some people didn't know: that
fruit is better if cooked earlier, and pasta is better if made earlier.
Once one has this knowledge, one must of course act on it.

But perhaps there's also an objective element, because *many* such halachos
depend not on what one is actually doing but on how it looks -- they are a
sort of variant on mar'is ho'ayin.  (This is seen in such varied laws as
"vedaber davar", taking medicine on Shabbos, and kil'ei zera'im.)  Maybe
there's an element of that here too, so that if it *looks* like you're
cooking on YT because it tastes better that way it's OK, and if it looks
like you're just making needless work for YT then you must make a shinuy.


> Perhaps all the halakhah is saying is that you should prepare whatever
> you can before YT, unless you are delaying the cooking to right before
> the meal for the purpose of providing better tasting food.

That's precisely what it's saying, and that is almost exactly the
formulation that RBW used in the first place, a challenge to which
sparked this thread.


> There is an implied chumrah... If you are making fruit soup on YT, not
> because it tastes better that way

On the contrary, it doesn't, which is why one may *not* make it on YT
without a shinuy.  You mean "if you are making chicken soup" (or many
other things).


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

At 12:38 PM 10/5/2012, Ben Waxman wrote:
>So perhaps instead of measuring the parameters in 21st century first
>world terms, we have to use Chazal's terms of reference.  If the
>question is "will the food spoil if cooked before hand", OK, cook it on
>Yom Tov.

And indeed this is what would invariably happen before there was 
refrigeration,  particularly by the second day of YT. The taste of 
the food would really deteriorate if the food did not spoil.


>If the question is some small improvement in taste that one gets from
>freshly cooked food versus refrigerated and reheated food, than for
>sure, cook ahead of time.

There is more than "some small improvement in taste that one gets 
from freshly cooked food versus refrigerated and reheated food."  For 
example, chicken that is cooked the day before, refrigerated and then 
reheated to be served on YT tastes nowhere near as good as chicken 
that is prepared fresh a couple of hours before a meal.   The same is 
true for most other foods.

As I said before this is why the example given in Shmiras Shabbos 
KeHilchasa is fruit soup and not the main dishes that one normally 
eats on YT.  Fruit soup is not reheated and hence its taste is not 
affected by being cooked before YT.



At 12:38 PM 10/5/2012, Akiva Miller wrote:
>On the other hand, try looking at it this way: Fruit soup is a very 
>unusual case. It is cooked, but it is served chilled, and that's why 
>it doesn't need to be cooked fresh. I'm having trouble thinking of 
>other examples; jello is the only one that comes to mind. Everything 
>else tastes better straight off the fire.

Agreed and this is indeed my point!


>Thus we have a very odd halacha:

Agreed!

>  The general halacha is indeed that everything should be cooked 
> beforehand. But, oddly, almost everything falls in the exceptional 
> category of tasting better when cooked fresh, and therefore may be 
> deliberately put off to be cooked on Yom Tov itself.

Agreed


>(Disclaimer: I asked my wife for more examples beyond fruit soup, 
>and it turns out that she disagrees with this entire post. She says 
>that stuffed cabbage and thick soups (such as pea or vegetable, but 
>not chicken) taste better when reheated. I imagine she'd say the 
>same about meat balls, lasagna, and many other dishes. I suggested 
>that our family is weird in preferring leftovers to fresh food, but 
>she thinks most families would agree with her.)

I agree with your wife regarding stuffed cabbage and mentioned this 
is a later post on this topic.  However, my personal experience with 
the other items she listed does not agree with her observation.  Most 
families are not pleased when they hear that they will be eating 
leftovers!  Reheated meat balls can be hard and chewy. My lasagna, 
both fleishigs and milchigs tastes better when eaten shortly after 
they are cooked.

YL

On 5/10/2012 11:30 AM, saul newman wrote:
> rSBA sent out in a mailing a reminder that it's not 'adenoi'
> or adinoi' , but rather 'adoynoy' . why is it not 'adonoy'?
> isn't 'adoynoy' a word spelled alef-dalet-vav-YOD-nun-yod?

Choilom  (or cheylom, choulom, or chowlom) is a diphthong; precisely
which diphthong it is, is a matter of local accent, but everyone agrees
that it is one.  Thus your question doesn't begin.


On 5/10/2012 1:17 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> What acharonim warn against is that it's common when speaking too quickly
> to slur the cholam into a schwa, and that's wrong according to all. From
> your email, it appears RSBA reminded everone of this point.

Or into a chirik, which is also wrong.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

 
From: Juno <gershon.du...@juno.com>

What is the  difference between hoshana and hoshia na?

Gershon
_gershon.dubin@juno.com_ (mailto:gershon.du...@juno.com) 

 
>>>>>
 
 
An extra syllable.  
 
I do not mean that as a joke.  Extra syllables make a difference in  
poetry.  Tehillim is poetry.  No time to look now but there are many  examples of 
words that are either lengthened or unnaturally foreshortened in  Tanachic 
poetry.  It's not only the meaning but the mellifluous melodious  movement of 
the mouth that matters in poetry.
 
I can also find you a place where Metzudas Dovid explicitly says that  
certain words were chosen because of their sound, but it's too close to Shabbos  
right now.
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



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Prof. Levine asked about my translation of Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata 2:1 --

> I also note that you wrote, "it will end up that *his* whole
> Yom Tov will be spent on food-related melachos, and *he* will
> miss out on Simchas Yom Tov." Am I to deduce from this that
> the man is to do the cooking for Yom Tov?

The simple truth is that I just translated his words, perhaps too literally.

Our native tongue (English) is one which has numerous gender-neutral words,
and it is my opinion that this makes us more sensitive to these issues, and
that it is unfair for us to ask these questions of an author who is writing
in a language (Hebrew) which has no such words. Perhaps a listmember whose
native tongue had no (or few) gender-neutral words would like to comment.

On the other hand, I was tempted to answer your question somewhat
tongue-in-cheek, by suggesting that the psak of the SSK is indeed exactly
that, that "the man is to do the cooking for Yom Tov".

But yesterday I came across a fascinating Mishneh Brurah 639:12, which
discusses achilas arai: "It is mutar to taste the cooked food several
times, and even to swallow it, outside the sukkah."

It seems clear to me that he is talking about tasting the food *while* he
is cooking it, in order to make sure that the flavor is correct. It is also
obvious that he is talking about a man, and not a woman, because there's no
question that a woman is allowed to swallow outside the sukkah. His point
is that even a man can taste the food while HE is cooking it, because it
counts as achilas arai.

Thus, we have clear evidence from the MB that men do cook.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/506f489d3916c489c691fst04vuc

At 04:51 PM 10/5/2012, Akiva Miller wrote:
>Thus, we have clear evidence from the MB that men do cook.

There is no question the men do cook.  Aren't the best chefs in the world men?

We learn from Yaakov Aveinu that every yeshiva boy should know how to 
cook.  After all,  wasn't he the one who prepared the "porridge" that 
Eisav wanted?

YL
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Cantor Wolberg asked me a question that made me realize that two of my
"standard answers" combine in a way that -- while not impossible --
does pose a stretch.

On the question of how prayer works, we usually speak about how it's not
about getting HQBH to give in to our begging, but becoming the kind of
person for whom a different kind of response is more fitting.

In particular, communal prayer, eg for someone sick, changes their
personal suffering into a communal event, and thus changes the calculus
by which HQBH decides whether or not the world is best served by the
person being sick.

On the question of theodicy, we usually speak about how tzadiq vera lo
is simply unanswerable. As RYBS put it, the Jewish question WRT tragedy
is not "Why?" but "How does this situation call upon me to respond?"

We do not claim to be able to identify the spiritual causes of suffering,
but rather to take lessons from it.

So, when you add the two topics together: Somoene is sick. It's not
because of a lack of communal unity, but it does call upon us to
respond communally -- and a communal action could indeed lead to
end the person's illness. All while asserting the connection isn't
causal.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 4:06 PM, I wrote:
: Side-note: Shelomo calls himself "Qoheles ben David" in a fit of Ruach
: haQodesh. He was the only king to fulfill Haqhel -- before him there was
: no BHMQ, and after him 10 of the shevatim wouldn't come...

Along those lines, enjoy the following from my former chavrusah (and
repeated guest-poster) R' Dov Kramer (CC-ed).

Gutt Voch und Gutt Mo'ed!
-Micha


Taking a Closer Look (Rabbi Dov Kramer)

The overriding theme of Sefer Koheles is how worthless life is if it is
not dedicated to building a relationship with the Creator and fulfilling
His commandments (12:13). The word for "worthless" (or, alternatively, "of
no intrinsic value") is understandably used many, many times throughout
Koheles, but it is not the only thought mentioned more than once in
it. Thinking aloud about whether there is any benefit to wisdom over
foolishness occurs three times (2:3, 2:12-13 and 6:8, see also 9:11),
wondering whether hard work is worth the effort happens four times (1:3,
2:22, 3:9 and 5:15), that nothing is ever really new is mentioned twice
(1:9 and 3:15), as is the notion that the dead are luckier than those
still alive (4:2 and 7:1) and that the righteous and the wicked seem to
be treated the same (8:14 and 9:2), and we are advised four times not
to think that we humans can understand everything that G-d does (3:11,
5:1, 8:17 and 11:5). Why are so many concepts repeated? Was it just
for emphasis?

Rabbi Yitzchok Sorotzkin, sh'lita (Rinas Yitzchok, Koheles 1:1) discusses
why Sh'lomo HaMelech was called "Koheles." He quotes Rashi, who says
that he got this name because all of his words were said in a gathering
("kahal," i.e. people congregated whenever he would speak publicly in
order to hear what he had to say, which makes sense, as he was the wisest
man in the world). He then quotes several sources (Rokayach, Avudraham,
Elyah Rabbah) who say that among the reasons why Koheles is read on Succos
is because Sh'lomo HaMelech shared the thoughts contained in it with the
nation when they were gathered together every Sh'mita year, on Succos,
to hear him read Sefer D'varim (the mitzvah of "Hak-hel"). The implication
(Rav Sorotzkin continues) is that of Sh'lomo's thoughts, it was only what
became known as Sefer Koheles that was said in a public gathering. (I'm
not sure how this is implied; it is possible that whenever Sh'lomo spoke
publicly people gathered to hear him, not just when there was a specific
commandment to gather together to hear the king read Sefer D'varim. If
anything, the fact that only Sh'lomo was called "Koheles" and not any
other kings -- even though they also read Sefer D'varim to the gathered
nation every seven years -- indicates that there were gatherings to hear
Sh'lomo all the time, whereas for the other kings they only gathered to
hear them speak when obligated to do so.)

Rabbi Sorotzkin then quotes Avudraham's suggestion that the reason
Sh'lomo shared these specific thoughts with the nation during "Hak-hel"
was similar to the underlying reason for Moshe's speeches to the nation
in Sefer D'varim (which is what has to be read aloud by the king during
"Hak-hel"), i.e. to give them rebuke. Rabbi Sorotzkin furthers this
notion by adding that Sh'lomo's intent was also to keep them focused on
their mission. Just as Moshe wanted his lectures to motivate the nation
to keep the Torah and not assimilate Canaanite culture into their own,
Sh'lomo wanted to prevent the nation from being distracted by the good
times they were experiencing. He did so by reminding them that there is
nothing of intrinsic value in this world; its only real purpose is to
provide opportunities to fulfill G-d's mitzvos and be in awe of Him.

If Sefer Koheles consists of the lectures Sh'lomo HaMelech gave the nation
while he had their mandatory attention, there is no need to insist that
just because it was the same Sefer D'varim that the king read aloud every
seven years, Sh'lomo must have also read the same exact text regarding
the worthlessness of this world every seven years. Since he became king in
2924, the Bais HaMikdash was completed in 2935, and he died in 2964, it is
safe to assume that Sh'lomo presided over at least four "Hak-hels." If he
shared his thoughts regarding how worthless this world is several times,
and the specific thoughts he wanted to share were slightly different each
time, rather than Sefer Koheles being a transcript of the speech he gave
every seven years, it would be a compendium of the speeches he gave over
the years. And since he very likely repeated some of the thoughts he had
shared in an earlier "Hak-hel" in a subsequent one, when Sefer Koheles was
put together -- and all of his thoughts on the worthlessness of the world
compiled together -- these ideas appear more than once in the compilation.

On 6/10/2012 11:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> If Sefer Koheles consists of the lectures Sh'lomo HaMelech gave the nation
> while he had their mandatory attention, there is no need to insist that
> just because it was the same Sefer D'varim that the king read aloud every
> seven years, Sh'lomo must have also read the same exact text regarding
> the worthlessness of this world every seven years. Since he became king in
> 2924, the Bais HaMikdash was completed in 2935, and he died in 2964, it is
> safe to assume that Sh'lomo presided over at least four "Hak-hels." If he
> shared his thoughts regarding how worthless this world is several times,
> and the specific thoughts he wanted to share were slightly different each
> time, rather than Sefer Koheles being a transcript of the speech he gave
> every seven years, it would be a compendium of the speeches he gave over
> the years. And since he very likely repeated some of the thoughts he had
> shared in an earlier "Hak-hel" in a subsequent one, when Sefer Koheles was
> put together -- and all of his thoughts on the worthlessness of the world
> compiled together -- these ideas appear more than once in the compilation.

Compare with the first 11 chapters of Sefer Devarim, which Malbim understands
to be a compilation of eleven different speeches that Moshe Rabbenu gave over
the course of the 38 years from Chorev to Kadesh Barnea.  Hashem edited these
11 speeches into one -- that's why it's Toras Hashem even though all the words
are Moshe's -- and told him to deliver it as his parting speech.  Of course
it's no surprise that the Ultimate Editor did a more seamless job on Devarim
than whoever edited Koheles managed.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

As a small addendum to the below, a rav recently spoke about saying a 
mi'shebeirach on Shabbat for the ill. He stated that the practice of 
each person saying the name of an ill individual is problematic because 
it turns the communal prayer into an individual prayer, something which 
wouldn't be allowed on Shabbat.

Ben
On 10/7/2012 4:56 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> In particular, communal prayer, eg for someone sick, changes their
> personal suffering into a communal event, and thus changes the calculus
> by which HQBH decides whether or not the world is best served by the
> person being sick.

Shabbos is the celebration of the remembrance of Creation, a return to the
perfect state, a return to the Source. Likewise, Teshuva is a return to the
pure state.
Fascinatingly, with this in mind, in the very first word of Torah are planted the seeds of Shabbos and Repentance. 
?Bereshis has both Shabbos (shin, beis, sav) and tav, shin, veis, the root of teshuva. Also, implied in bereshis is beginning til end (aleph to sav).

Another very interesting observation:  All the days of Creation are
referred to as	"A second day," (Yom Sheni); A third day, (Yom Shelishi)
and so on, except for the sixth day, which is called "Yom HA'Shishi" ? THE
sixth day." Rashi comments that this alludes to the fact that the Torah
would be given on the sixth day (of the month of Sivan) many centuries
later.
 
My chiddush:  HAshishi, THE sixth day is used to distinguish the most important creation of all ? THE man (not just A man).

Chag Sameach 

(Make sure you took out all your frustrations during the havatat aravot).



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