Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 136

Fri, 05 Oct 2012

• 1. Re: More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (was Definition of Religion) (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (was Definition of Religion) (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Definition of Religion (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: Preparing Food Before or on Yom Tov (was Definition of Religion) (Zev Sero)
• 8. zecher lemikdash (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: honoring the deceased's wish (Poppers, Michael)
• 10. Re: More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Lisa Liel)
• 11. Hoshana (Juno)
• 12. How To Profit From Our Prophets: Guidance from Rav Breuer On The Important Study Of Tanach (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Hoshana (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Re: Hoshana (Micha Berger)

On 9/28/2012 12:33 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that the Ksiva is on RH,  and the Chasima is on YK.
>> According to some the final Chasima is on Hoshana Rabba.
>>      
> WRT people, the gemar chasimah is on YK. Hoshanah Rabba is a
> different judgment. Again, not that I understand how the two are fully
> distinct. Just noting that Rebbe, the shitah that assigns any judgment
> to HR at all, says they are.
>    

The judgment in question is Yom Hashem HaGadol v'HaNora, which is 
supposed to happen on Hoshana Rabba.

Lisa

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 01:40:07PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> WRT people, the gemar chasimah is on YK. Hoshanah Rabba is a
>> different judgment. Again, not that I understand how the two are fully
>> distinct. Just noting that Rebbe, the shitah that assigns any judgment
>> to HR at all, says they are.

> The judgment in question is Yom Hashem HaGadol v'HaNora, which is  
> supposed to happen on Hoshana Rabba.

Where does it say that? Not challenging, it's just not in concert with
the machloqes I cited.

I also am not sure what you're reverring to. If you mean THE YHhGvhN,
that is a one time escotological event, and not necessarily a description
of how annual judgment occurs.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

At 02:07 PM 9/28/2012, Akiva Miller wrote:
>Specifically, chapter 2, paragraph 1. (Sources available there.) 
...
>"A cooked food whose taste will not spoil at all if he cooks it on 
>Erev Yom Tov, such as fruit soup, should be prepared before Yom Tov. 
>If he did not prepare it before Yom Tov, because of forgetfulness or 
>lack of time, he may do so on Yom Tov, provided that he makes a 
>small shinui in the melacha. If he was anoos...
>he may do so on Yom Tov even without any shinui in the melacha.

>"And why did Chazal say that he should prepare beforehand? It is a 
>gezeira lest one ...                and it will end up that his whole 
>Yom Tov will be spent on food-related melachos, and he will miss out 
>on Simchas Yom Tov."

I must say that I do not understand this. Before there was refrigeration,
food would not keep for very long. Hence, one had to prepare it as
close to possible as to when it would be eaten.

Furthermore, any really good restaurant prepares the food after the
customer has ordered it. Why, because it is tastier when it is prepared
fresh. Thus, should it not be part of simchas Yom Tov to eat delicious
food that is prepared as close to being served as possible?

I also note that you wrote, "it will end up that *his* whole Yom Tov will
be spent on food-related melachos, and *he* will miss out on Simchas
Yom Tov." Am I to deduce from this that the man is to do the cooking
for Yom Tov?


At 02:07 PM 9/28/2012, Zev Sero wrote:
>Fruit soup is an *example*.  *All* food that can be made before yomtov
>without any loss of quality may not be made on yomtov.  The heter to make
>food on yomtov only applies if it can't be made beforehand, because it
>won't be as good.

Freshly prepared food is invariably better than food prepared earlier
and then reheated. This is why the best restaurants prepare the food
after the customer has ordered it and one has to wait longer to be served
in such restaurants than in not so good restaurants where they prepare
things in advance and then reheat it in a microwave.

Fruit soup is probably one of the few dishes that does not taste any
different when it is reheated. In addition, if one make fruit soup on
Yom Tov, then one will have to wait until it cools which takes some time.
In addition, fruit soup that has been refrigerated takes even better.
Thus I do not think that "Fruit soup is an 'example' for other food.

There is no comparison in taste to freshly cooked chicken and to chicken
that is reheated. Freshly cooked chicken definitely takes better.
The same is true for most dishes.

YL

The following is from RSRH's Horeb, page 91, volume 1.

 From what has been said in para. 171 it follows that the prohibition of 172
work on Yom Tov does not apply to the following cases:

(I) Any preparation of food which could not be done on the preceding
day.

(2) If the quality of the food is improved by its being prepared on
Yom Tov itself.

(3) All food preparations on Yom Tov which result in one being able
to use the food on the same day only.

The following is from the English translation of Shemiras Shabbos 
KeHilchasa at http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/cooking_yom_tov.pdf

One may cook and bake on Yom Tov, so long as one
intends to eat some of the food on the same day.

Food whose taste will not deteriorate at all if it is cooked
on the day before the Festival (for example, fruit soup)
should be prepared before Yom Tov.


----------
The question that comes to my mind is why is the example of fruit 
soup given.  After all, this is not such a common food and certainly 
not the mainstay of the average Yom Tov meal.  Why doesn't  the 
author give the example of chicken or meat?

I think that the answer is the following.  Fruit soup is a food that 
is eaten cold.  It is cooked,  allowed to cool, and refrigerated. 
Then it is eaten.  Since it is not reheated before being eaten,  its 
taste does deteriorate by having been cooked the day before.

Chicken, meat and many other dishes taste much better when prepared 
fresh shortly before they are served.  This is why the best 
restaurants prepare the food after the customer has ordered.  Hence, 
it seems to me that most food, whose taste does deteriorate if cooked 
before Yom Tov and then reheated on Yom Tov,  should be prepared on Yom Tov.

The one dish that comes to mind that tastes better after being 
reheated is stuffed cabbage.  (See http://tinyurl.com/9d5y342 
)  (Sometimes cholent tastes better the next day after being reheated.)

Of course,  when one can use electrical appliances in the food 
preparation which make the dish better and easier to prepare than if 
prepared "by hand",  then it seems to me that this sort of cooking 
should definitely be done before Yom Tov.  Thus it  seems to me that 
something like potato kugel, which is most easily prepared using a 
food processor, should be prepared before Yom Tov.

But again, most other dishes whose taste does deteriorate if prepared 
before Yom Tov and reheated on Yom Tov, should be prepared on Yom Tov 
as close to the serving of the meal as possible.

YL



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So perhaps instead of measuring the parameters in 21st century first 
world terms, we have to use Chazal's terms of reference.  If the 
question is "will the food spoil if cooked before hand", OK, cook it on 
Yom Tov.

If the question is some small improvement in taste that one gets from 
freshly cooked food versus refrigerated and reheated food, than for 
sure, cook ahead of time.

Ben

On 9/28/2012 8:34 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
> I must say that I do not understand this. Before there was refrigeration,
> food would not keep for very long. Hence, one had to prepare it as
> close to possible as to when it would be eaten.
>
> Furthermore, any really good restaurant prepares the food after the
> customer has ordered it. Why, because it is tastier when it is prepared
> fresh. Thus, should it not be part of simchas Yom Tov to eat delicious
> food that is prepared as close to being served as possible?

Prof. Levine wrote:

> I fail to see how you deduce from here that "We are supposed
> to cook all our food before Yom Tov."  It says, "Food whose
> taste will not deteriorate at all if it is cooked on the day
> before the Festival (for example, fruit soup) should be
> prepared before Yom Tov.
>
> Fruit soup is a far cry from all food!

I do agree that "Fruit soup is a far cry from all food!", and that perhaps the original quote should not have included the word "all".

On the other hand, try looking at it this way: Fruit soup is a very unusual
case. It is cooked, but it is served chilled, and that's why it doesn't
need to be cooked fresh. I'm having trouble thinking of other examples;
jello is the only one that comes to mind. Everything else tastes better
straight off the fire.

Thus we have a very odd halacha: The general halacha is indeed that
everything should be cooked beforehand. But, oddly, almost everything falls
in the exceptional category of tasting better when cooked fresh, and
therefore may be deliberately put off to be cooked on Yom Tov itself.

(Disclaimer: I asked my wife for more examples beyond fruit soup, and it
turns out that she disagrees with this entire post. She says that stuffed
cabbage and thick soups (such as pea or vegetable, but not chicken) taste
better when reheated. I imagine she'd say the same about meat balls,
lasagna, and many other dishes. I suggested that our family is weird in
preferring leftovers to fresh food, but she thinks most families would
agree with her.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5068413f46bfc413f5195st04vuc

On 30/09/2012 2:34 AM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> So perhaps instead of measuring the parameters in 21st century first
> world terms, we have to use Chazal's terms of reference.  If the question
> is "will the food spoil if cooked before hand", OK, cook it on Yom Tov.
>
> If the question is some small improvement in taste that one gets from
> freshly cooked food versus refrigerated and reheated food, than for sure,
> cook ahead of time.

No, that isn't the criterion. On the contrary, we're explicitly told
not only that we may bake bread on yomtov because fresh bread is better,
but also that we may bake more than we need for the day, because the
bread bakes better in a full oven than in a half-empty one.  So even
for that slight improvement in taste we're allowed to cook on yomtov.
The examples given by the poskim of food that one may *not* prepare on
yomtov are 1) cooked dried fruit, and 2) pasta (making it, not cooking it),
both of which we're told improve with age.  These are of course only
examples, but the tzad hashaveh is that they can be made before yomtov
with *no* loss of quality, and therefore even if there was no opportunity
to make them before yomtov one may not do so on yomtov without a shinui.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

from a sefer by Rav Zoldin:

The only takanah of R. Yochanan ben Zakkai that the gemara explicitly links
with the mikdash is taking the lulav outside of
the Temple (Jerusalem) for seven days
However Piskei Rid RH p150) also connects blowing the shofar on shabbat
wherever there is a bet din also with zekher lemikdash)
Interestingly R Yehoshua Ben Levi in the Yerushalmi the beracha for the
last 6 days is "al mitzvat zekenim"

RYBS explains the takanah as not referring to the past but rather to think
about the future bet hamikdash on the basis of
the verse "Zion hi doresh ein la" . Mesillat Yeharaim uses the verse to
finding other ways of remembering the mikdash.
The Aderet wrote a sefer on zekher lamikdash

Some other mitzvot that were connected to the bet hamikdash over the years
Sefirat HaOmer
Korech at the seder of Pesach
Hakafot around the bimah
saying Pitum Hakoteret
aravah on Hoshana Raba
eating the Afikoman
lighting the menorah on chanukah in shul
simchat bet hashoevah (note this is a recent minhag probably from early
1700s in Turkey)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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In Avodah V30n132, RnTK wrote:
> The request to be buried in concentration camp clothes strikes me as
> akin to the common minhag of burying murder victims who were killed
> because they were	Jews in the bloody clothes they were wearing when
> they died.  These clothes are said to arouse Heavenly compassion. <
The type of objection I would make to this comparison is akin ;-) to what RnTK writes in the subsequent digest:
> it is wrong to compare saying Kaddish in Nusach Sfard  (chassidish) with not saying Kaddish at all <
So too, IMHO, it's not proper to compare a clothes-related tzava'ah of
someone who didn't wear those clothes when last alive with the situation of
those killed wearing certain clothes (not to mention that, practically
speaking, it may be best [Halachic correction requested] to not attempt
removing blood-soaked clothes from someone killed in a gruesome/bloody
fashion, whether the death was caused by murder or accident).  (In any
case, may we never have to hear of the latter situation in the future...and
I would much prefer we soon witness the era of "bila hamaves
lanetzach"....)

Best Mo'adim l'Simcha/Gut Moeid wishes from
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On 9/28/2012 2:06 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 01:40:07PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>    
>>> WRT people, the gemar chasimah is on YK. Hoshanah Rabba is a
>>> different judgment. Again, not that I understand how the two are fully
>>> distinct. Just noting that Rebbe, the shitah that assigns any judgment
>>> to HR at all, says they are.
>>>        
>    
>> The judgment in question is Yom Hashem HaGadol v'HaNora, which is
>> supposed to happen on Hoshana Rabba.
>>      
> Where does it say that? Not challenging, it's just not in concert with
> the machloqes I cited.
>    

Sorry I couldn't find my notes on it.  So I googled and found these:

http://www.kby.org/hebrew/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3916
http://palmtreeofdeborah.blogspot.com/2012/01/rav-fish
-sod-hachashmal-on-gog-umagog.html

> I also am not sure what you're reverring to. If you mean THE YHhGvhN,
> that is a one time escotological event, and not necessarily a description
> of how annual judgment occurs.
>    
As I understand it, each day of the year has its own character.  Tisha 
B'Av is innately a day of great geulah and great tragedy.  25 Kislev was 
Hanukkah long before the Chashmonaim, even if it wasn't celebrated.  
Hoshana Rabba is the last of the great chaggim.  It's the holiday that 
hasn't happened yet.  Its character is Hashem's judgment of the 
nations.  It's the only day other than Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur when 
we say "kadosh v'nora shemo" as we take out the Torah, and not only 
"kadosh shemo".  It's the day that we either pray for or affirm will 
come every time we say kaddish, because it's that day when Hashem says 
in Yechezkel "v'hitgadalti v'hitkadashti".  It's the day that the navi 
says will eclipse yetziyat mitzrayim as the biggest event in history.

That second link claims that it's going to be this Hoshana Rabba, but 
I've played that game before.  I remember lots of people thinking it'd 
be 1994 and 2001, too.

Lisa

What is the difference between hoshana and hoshia na?

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/506e4393880b543935aa7st01duc

 From http://tinyurl.com/9ow62xs

?He [Rav Dr. Y. Breuer, ZT"L) stressed that the 
Sifrei HaNeviim not be regarded as mere relics of 
the past, but must instead be understood as 
sources with contemporary relevance and power: 
?He who reads the Prophets as they should be read 
receives eternally sacred messages from their 
mouths?.Rav Breuer viewed the Neviim as Divinely 
inspired leaders commissioned by God to assist us 
in comprehending the enigma of life.? He wrote 
?The Books of our Prophets are the immortal 
sources from which flow the Jewish consciousness 
and Jewish strength in an inexhaustible stream.?

?Rav Breuer saw the works of the Neviim as 
invaluable aids to understanding the history of 
the Jewish people within the context of world 
events. He saw the prophets as the quintessential 
?interpreters of the guidelines to history and 
mankind?s growth as laid down in the early pages 
of the Divine Book,? and could not imagine how it 
was possible to develop a comprehensive view of 
Jewish history without a thorough knowledge of 
the Sifrei HaNeviim. As he once remarked, ?How 
can one understand world history without Yeshayah 
and how can one understand Yeshayah without world history??

His shiurim in Tanach were exceptional, abounding 
with emotion and excitement, in the words of Rav Shimon Schwab ? .

Rav Breuer was deeply troubled by the fact that 
most yeshivos neglected the study of Tanach.

Rav Breuer?s grandson once told him his Yeshiva 
schedule, whereupon the Rav asked him ?And when 
do you learn Tanach?? His grandson responded, 
?The rebbeim say we should learn it by 
ourselves.? To which Rav Breuer, displeased, 
responded ?Do you think Tanach is nursery rhymes 
that you can just read it on your own?!?

In Rav Breuer?s words, ?The profound importance 
and lofty significance of Gemara study cannot be 
stressed enough. But it is wrongly applied if 
this means neglect or even elimination of the 
vast realm of other Torah areas.? He felt that 
the study of all aspects of Torah ?is an 
irreplaceable source from which we all, in every 
age and especially in the youthful stage, may 
draw an inexhaustible wealth of ideological 
values which form the eternal reservoir for the 
strong Yehudi who is proudly conscious of his Divine Judaism.?

He held that while a negative attitude toward 
Tanach study by Yeshivos was understandable in 
the past when the ?Haskalah? movement threatened 
tradition and wanted to have Tanach study 
supercede Gemara learning, nowadays there is no reason for such an attitude.

Rav Breuer always kept a small Tanach on his desk 
and referred to it often. Every time the Gemara 
would quote a pasuk from the Tanach, he would 
look it up (finding it within seconds), and learn 
almost the whole perek where the pasuk was found.

When Rav Breuer would come to test the bachurim 
of the Yeshiva who were learning Gemara and 
mefarshim, his first question would be, ?Where is 
the source in Chumash for the sugya you are learning??

His grandchildren reported ?When we came across a 
pasuk in the Gemara he would ask us if we knew 
where the pasuk was. If we answered wrong, he would be very annoyed.?

Let us try to follow the guidance of Rav Breuer 
here, and thereby, hopefully, gain the very 
necessary guidance we so need in our difficult 
times from the pages of the Tanach.


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On 10/4/2012 9:18 PM, Gershon gershon.du...@juno.com wrote:
> What is the difference between hoshana and hoshia na?

I don't think there is one.

On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 07:06:48AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 10/4/2012 9:18 PM, Gershon gershon.du...@juno.com wrote:
:> What is the difference between hoshana and hoshia na?

: I don't think there is one.

I 90% agree with Lisa.

But there is an effective difference, even though the two translate
identically. Much like the difference between "can't" and "can not". By
not using the contraction, one gives more emphasis to the phrase in
comparison to the rest of the sentence.

:-)BBii!
-Micha


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