Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 135

Fri, 28 Sep 2012

• 1. Re: Definition of Religion (Zev Sero)
• 2. Explaining Seder haAvodah (David Riceman)
• 3. Re: Definition of Religion (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Definition of Religion (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Uv'chen Ten Pach'd'cha (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Kiddush Levana in Tishre (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: physics and Og (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Re: physics and Og (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Obsolete Relic, or Vital, Living Legacy? (Rav Breuer's Derech Halimud In Our Time -- continuation) (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: Definition of Religion (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Definition of Religion (Micha Berger)
• 12. Microbes and Kashrus (Joe Slater)
• 13. Rabbi Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger: How R Hirsch's Teaching Saved Western Europe and Eastern European Jewry: The Education of Sarah Schenirer (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Insight Into Succos From RSRH (Prof. Levine)
• 15. More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: More on Gmar Chasima Tovah? (Zev Sero)

On 25/09/2012 6:13 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
> Please supply a halachic source for your statement "We are supposed to
> cook all our food before Yom Tov but if cooking food ahead of time
> will result in poorer tasting food, we can make it fresh."

Rama OC 495:1
Rambam Hil' YT 1:5
etc.

As far as I know this is an undisputed halacha.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

RMB:

<<Anyone have suggestions for what to say before YK Mussaf to a room of 
semi-observant O affiliated Jews so as to help them relate to Seder 
haAvodah?>>

The minyan I often get asked to speak at is a bit more observant than 
that, but I think a lot of people there have the same problem. I 
generally pick out one detail and try to explain it.  One year, for 
example, I discussed the gemara in Yoma about how the Cohen Gadol really 
ought to use two right hands in the Kodesh HaKodoshim on YK (i can look 
up the details after Yom Tov, DV).  This year I hope to discuss the 
midrash "v'nasa hasair - zeh eisav - es kol avonos Tam, shene'emar 
v'yaakov ish tam".

Somehow every detail I pick leads either to H. Teshuva in the Rambam or 
Rabbi Kook's Oros HaTeshuva.

David Riceman

At 03:24 AM 9/25/2012, Ben Waxman wrote on Areivim:
 >We are supposed to cook all our food before Yom Tov but if cooking
 >food ahead of time will result in poorer tasting food, we can make it fresh.

and in later email he wrote, "Start with the second chapter of
Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata. He says it there clearly and brings all
of the relevant source material.

I have placed the relevant pages from Shemiras Shabbos KeHilchasa at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/cooking_yom_tov.pdf

I fail to see how you deduce from here that "We are supposed to cook
all our food before Yom Tov."  It says, "Food whose taste will not
deteriorate at all if it is cooked
on the day before the Festival (for example, fruit soup) should be
prepared before Yom Tov.

Fruit soup is a far cry from all food!  YL
At 03:24 AM 9/25/2012, Ben Waxman wrote:
>We are supposed to cook all our food before Yom Tov but if cooking 
>food ahead of time will result in poorer tasting food, we can make it fresh.

and in later email he wrote, "Start with the second chapter of 
Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata. He says it there clearly and brings all 
of the relevant source material.

I have placed the relevant pages from Shemiras Shabbos KeHilchasa at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/cooking_yom_tov.pdf

I fail to see how you deduce from here that "We are supposed to cook 
all our food before Yom Tov."  It says, "Food whose taste will not 
deteriorate at all if it is cooked
on the day before the Festival (for example, fruit soup) should be 
prepared before Yom Tov.

Fruit soup is a far cry from all food!  YL

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Prof. Levine asked:

> Please supply a halachic source for your statement "We are
> supposed to cook all our food before Yom Tov but if cooking
> food ahead of time will result in poorer tasting food, we
> can make it fresh."

R' Ben Waxman responded:

> Start with the second chapter of Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata.
> He says it there clearly and brings all of the relevant
> source material.

Specifically, chapter 2, paragraph 1. (Sources available there.) Here's my translation:

"A cooked food whose taste will not spoil at all if he cooks it on Erev Yom
Tov, such as fruit soup, should be prepared before Yom Tov. If he did not
prepare it before Yom Tov, because of forgetfulness or lack of time, he may
do so on Yom Tov, provided that he makes a small shinui in the melacha. If
he was anoos, such that he had no possibility of prepareing it beforehand,
or if guests arrived suddenly on Yom Tov and he could not prepare for them
beforehand - he may do so on Yom Tov even without any shinui in the
melacha.

"And why did Chazal say that he should prepare beforehand? It is a gezeira
lest one hold himself back from doing food-related melachos on Erev Yom
Tov, and he might leave them to be done on Yom Tov, when he does not need
to go to his job, and it will end up that his whole Yom Tov will be spent
on food-related melachos, and he will miss out on Simchas Yom Tov."

Akiva Miller



____________________________________________________________
Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
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In the Amidah of RH and YK, the beginning of "Uv'chen Ten Pach'd'cha"
begins with four phrases, describing four different classes of beings and
something about each of them, and then a request that these four should
unite as one "agudah".

1) The Pachad of G-d should be on all that He made (al kol maasecha).
2) The Aymah of G-d should be on all that He created (al kol mah shebarasa).
3) All of the maasim (all that was made) should fear Him.
4) All of the b'ruim (creations) should bow to Him.

Over the course of RH and YK, I was wondering what differences there could
be between the these classes. I see clear patterns where 1 & 2 differ
from 3 & 4, and also where 1 & 3 differ from 2 & 4.

Is there a difference between that He *made* and what He *created*? (I tend
to distinguish these verbs as "created from nothing" and "made from
something else".)

Is there a difference between what *He* (actively) made/created and what *was* made/created (by an unnamed Maker/Creator)?

Perhaps the answer is that it is simple poetry, that the very same class is
being described four different ways for emphasis. But that doesn't seem
likely to me, because then we would not be asking for the four classes to
unite as one "agudah".

(I could ask why #1 uses a single word "maasecha" while #2 uses the two
words "mah shebarasa", but I suspect that those are simply very common
terms, preferred to the style of the Amidah. "Mah she'asisa" or "b'ruecha"
would be relatively uncommon - if I even got the grammar correct.)

Thanks to all for your thoughts

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Refinance for 1.750%/2.926% APR
Loans under 729K usually qualify for US GOV backed refinance programs
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/506429f536be029f40293st03vuc

I understand that Kiddush Levana is a joyful mitzvah, and therefore many (most? all?) delay it from the Nine Days until after Tisha B'av.

But why do so many delay it from the Aseres Y'mei Teshuva (AYT) until after
Yom Kippur? Two possible answers come to my mind, but I have problems with
both of them.

1) AYT is a time of introspection and seriousness, and perhaps events of
extreme simcha are to be avoided. I do not recall whether or not any
communities specifically avoid getting married during the AYT, but even if
there is indeed such a minhag, does Kiddush Levana rise to that level of
simcha?

2) I can easily see the idea of "going from one mitzva to another", such as
leaving shul on Motzaei Yom Kippur and saying Kiddush Levana outside
immediately, even before going home. But does that override the principle
of "When a mitzva is at hand, don't let it spoil"? Especially during the
AYT, when we need all the zechus we can get, why push off this mitzva?
(Especially given that there will be only a few days left in which to do
it!)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Is Green Coffee the BEST way to Burn Fat? Can it Make you Thinner?
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R'n Lisa Liel wrote:
<It's midrash. Moshe wasn't 18 feet tall. He didn't jump 18 feet in the air
with an 18 foot spear. Taking midrashim literally like that robs them of
their real meaning(s).

You may not take them literally but many do, in fact the Mishna Berura
takes the story of Og picking up a mountain to throw on Bnei Yisrael as
completely literal (see Mishna Berura 218,1).
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On 9/27/2012 6:53 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> R'n Lisa Liel wrote:
> <It's midrash. Moshe wasn't 18 feet tall. He didn't jump 18 feet in 
> the air with an 18 foot spear. Taking midrashim literally like that 
> robs them of their real meaning(s).
>
> You may not take them literally but many do, in fact the Mishna Berura 
> takes the story of Og picking up a mountain to throw on Bnei Yisrael 
> as completely literal (see Mishna Berura 218,1).

I disagree.  He takes literally that Og was enormous, yes.  That Og 
tried to throw a huge boulder, yes.  But that it was a mountain, or all 
of the 10 amot stuff?  He doesn't say anything to indicate that he takes 
that literally.

Lisa

 From http://tinyurl.com/8f3c2gd

It was gratifying to see the interest in Rav Breuer's derech halimud, 
which was described as "The Way of Old Ashkenaz",  in the wake of 
<http://treasuresofashkenaz.wordpress.com/2012
/09/24/rav-breuers-derech-halimud-the-way-of-old-ashkenaz-%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%9
A-%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91-%D7%
99%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A2/>
[or <http://j.mp/QglzVW> -micha] the previous post. " .

Brisker Derech vs. Old Ashkenaz Way

In the discussion of Rav Breuer's derech that we referenced, the words
Brisk, and Brisker derech, did not appear. However, there was nevertheless
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n134.shtml#02> a significant
response in an online forum to it that came to my attention, which,
if I understand it correctly, believes that Rav Breuer's old Ashkenaz
derech has been overtaken and superceded by the way of Rav Chaim of Brisk.

Is that true? If so, to what degree? Is such a development desirable? 
Are the two ways necessarily always at odds?

Should the old way be cast aside and treated as a fossil or relic, a 
quaint remnant of a pre-modern era (for those who haven't already 
done so)? Placed in display in a museum? Left to the Chasidic world?

<Snip>

So to sum up, the old Ashkenaz derech, the derech of Rav Breuer, the 
Chasam Sofer, and so many others,  is not something to be retired, 
looked down upon, or shunted aside. Rather it is something which is 
vital, enduring, and beneficial.

See the above URL for more.  YL

On 27/09/2012 3:54 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 03:24 AM 9/25/2012, Ben Waxman wrote on Areivim:

>>We are supposed to cook all our food before Yom Tov but if cooking
>>food ahead of time will result in poorer tasting food, we can make it fresh.

> and in later email he wrote, "Start with the second chapter of
> Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata. He says it there clearly and brings all
> of the relevant source material.
>
> I have placed the relevant pages from Shemiras Shabbos KeHilchasa at
> http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/cooking_yom_tov.pdf
>
> I fail to see how you deduce from here that "We are supposed to cook
> all our food before Yom Tov."  It says, "Food whose taste will not
> deteriorate at all if it is cooked
> on the day before the Festival (for example, fruit soup) should be
> prepared before Yom Tov.
>
> Fruit soup is a far cry from all food!  YL

Fruit soup is an *example*.  *All* food that can be made before yomtov
without any loss of quality may not be made on yomtov.  The heter to make
food on yomtov only applies if it can't be made beforehand, because it
won't be as good.  Which is exactly what RBW wrote.   This is not in any
way controversial.  There are no other opinions.  It's black-letter law.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 02:40:56PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Start with the second chapter of Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata. He says it  
> there clearly and brings all of the relevant source material.

I think though, there is a drift from the impression left by the
original Areivim post.

I thought you were originally saying that the heter to cook on YT is
limited to only including that which needs to be cooked on YT. This
would be a chidush, and I shared RYL's surprise.

Now we see the issue isn't melakhah, but simchas YT (so as not to be
cooking all YT), and not just permitting what must be cooked on YT
but what which would be enjoyed more if cooked on YT. IOW, there is no
problem planning fruit soup on the menu, even though having a different
appetizer wouldn't necessitate waiting until YT to prepare it. Now is
there a requirement to put up with 2nd-class fruit soup.

Or, for that matter, if you want omelets. (Just thinking of another food
I wouldn't enjoy much reheated.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot

A while ago I had some very nice goat milk kefir, a fermented milk
drink. Kefir is produced by the action of a mixture of bacteria and
yeasts on milk and you need a live culture of these microorganisms to
produce it - you can't simply leave some milk out overnight and hope
for the best. The usual way of innoculating a new batch of milk is to
use some kefir from the last batch.

It occurred to me that there are many such products which derive from
a chain of earlier ones: yoghurt, koji (the bacterial culture used to
make Japanese foods like miso), fermented pickles, and sourdough
bread. Do the cultures used to make these foods need to be kosher? I
would have assumed yes, but I'm not aware of distinctively kosher
varieties of (e.g.) sourdough bread culture that can be traced to some
ancient loaf produced near Mount Sinai. Perhaps you would say that we
presume that these cultures are intrinsically kosher, but what about
the problem of chalav akum? And can we really assume that the culture
was never raised on a treif medium?

If non-kosher cultures are used, could they be made kosher via bitul?
Could we say that everything is ultimately batul in microscopic
amounts, even something which has such a profound effect on the food?
Because all you need to revive a culture is a (literally) microscopic
amount. What if there's no actual contact of the old culture and the
new growing mechanism; what if the treif culture is left to grow
spores which waft across and innoculate the new  culture? Even if we
wouldn't otherwise recognise reahh in such a context, shouldn't we
recognise the substantiality of a connection with such a profound
physical effect?

I'd be very interested in hearing the list members' thoughts on this.

Joe Slater

This talk  is at http://tinyurl.com/bq84tda

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Rabbi S. R. Hirsch writes in the Horeb

To the powerful and wealthy, the succah says, "Do not rely on your 
fortune; it is transitory. Even your castle is no more secure than a 
succah. If you are safe, it is because God shelters you as he as He 
did your ancestors when they had but a booth to protect them against 
one of earth's harshest environments. If you can do that, opulence 
will not blind you the glow of God's beneficence.

To the poor and downtrodden, the succah says, "Are you more helpless 
than the millions of your ancestors in the Wilderness, without food, 
water, or permanent shelter? What sustained them? Who provided for 
them? Look around you at your succah's frail walls and at the stars 
you seen through its rustling roof. Let it remind you that Israel 
became a nation living in such "mansions."


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On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:21:06PM -0500, someone wrote to Areivim:
> I understood Hoshana Rabba as being the day the nations of the world are  
> judged.

Our tefillos assume like R' Meir (Berakhos 16a) that chasimah is on Yom
Kippur. R' Yehudah (ibid) disagrees and says chasimah is each thing in
its time: Pesach for tevu'ah, Shavuos for fruit, Sukkos for water, and
only people are nechtam on YK.

One can ask what judgment of tevu'ah, fruit and water means when taken
out of the context of judging the people who need them. First, because
they don't have bechirah chafshis and thus judging them is pointless;
second because wheat doesn't care about the sentencing, only the people
relying on it do.

The mishnah (RH 1:2) reflects R Yehudah's position about the 4 distinct
judgments, although it speaks of "nidon", not "nechtam". I would say
this is unsurprising for the mishnah to be Rebbe's position, were it
not equally logical to invoke stam mishnah keR' Meir.

So, according to R' Yehudah and the stam mishnah in RH, Hoshanah Rabba
marks the end of din on water, its chasimah.

Given the gemara at the beginning of mes' Taanis about the three keys
that HQBH does not delegate, I would assume this includes parnasah in
general.

But this presumption is my own, and there is another consequence to the
difference -- related to the post quoted at the top. While "a rising tide
raises all ships", it doesn't require a neis nigleh for one person to get
rich and another not. However, WRT water itself, without violating teva,
it would seem the judgment would have to be regional. You can't have rain
on only one house and not next door.

R' Eliyahu Kitov writes:
    On Hoshana Rabbah there takes place the final "sealing of judgement"
    which begins on Rosh Hashanah. At the beginning of the period
    of judgment - on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur - all the world's
    inhabitants pass in individual review before G-d. During the
    Festival of Sukkot, the entire world is judged concerning water,
    fruit, and produce.

I do not know his source for "fruit and produce". It's not R' Yehudah.

    The seventh day of the Festival, Hoshana Rabbah, is the day on which
    this judgment is sealed. Because human life depends on water and all
    depends upon the final decision, Hoshana Rabbah is invested with a
    certain similarity to Yom Kippur and is therefore marked by profuse
    prayer and repentance.

Thus elevating judgment on water to being part of the judgment of people.
This appears to me to be touching the question I asked: What is chasimah
on water that it can be excluded from the chasimah on

In any case, the thread on Areivimstarted with Prof Levine objecting to
"Gemar Chasimah Tovah", proving that the "gemar" is of recent vintage. He
elaborated on that post here on Avodah
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n134.shtml#12> (of course the
"more on" in the subject line on this thread here on Avodah would be a
mystery to those who don't get Areivim):

> My understanding is that the Ksiva is on RH,  and the Chasima is on YK.
> According to some the final Chasima is on Hoshana Rabba.

WRT people, the gemar chasimah is on YK. Hoshanah Rabba is a
different judgment. Again, not that I understand how the two are fully
distinct. Just noting that Rebbe, the shitah that assigns any judgment
to HR at all, says they are.

And so, Gemar Chasima Tovah before YK makes sense according to both R'
Meir (who has no other times of judgment) and Rebbe.

Pet peeve: The Israeli "Gemar Tov" sounds to me like the other person
is wishing for one's petirah. At least it should be a good ending,
but still, who wants to end?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

PS: This is based on research I did for a recent blog post based on
RAM's question here about why resha'im can't do teshuvah after RH
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2012/09/mothers-day-and-teshuvah-week.shtml>

The two topics overlap because the question is based on the statement
in the gemara that chasimah on YK is only for beinonim, because tzadiqim
and resha'im were already sealed on RH.

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 28/09/2012 1:33 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> One can ask what judgment of tevu'ah, fruit and water means when taken
> out of the context of judging the people who need them.

The things aren't judged, people are judged to decide whether they should
get those things, each in its own time.  "Befesach *al* hatevuah", etc.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon


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