Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 119

Wed, 22 Aug 2012

• 1. Re: History? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: History? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: History? (Saul Guberman)
• 4. Re: History? (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: is this ok? (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Chalah Not an Amulet (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Does the Torah Disapprove of Ben Pekua (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: A (Kosher) Can of Worms (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Sleeves that Cover the Elbows (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: is this ok? (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Mezuza Not an Amulet (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: is this ok? (Arie Folger)
• 13. Re: Canceling Reservations (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Chalah Not an Amulet (Zev Sero)
• 15. MEZUZAH: PROTECTIVE AMULET OR RELIGIOUS SYMBOL? (Prof. Levine)

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 01:22:46PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Rabbi Shimon Schwab & Historic Truth
:> What ethical purpose is served by preserving a realistic historic
:> picture? Nothing but the satisfaction of curiosity. We should tell
:> ourselves and our children the good memories of the good people, their
:> unshakable faith, their staunch defense of tradition, their life of
:> truth, their impeccable honesty, their boundless charity and their
:> great reverence for Torah and Torah sages. What is gained by pointing
:> out their inadequacies and their contradictions? We want to be inspired
:> by their example and learn from their experience...

R' Hutner believed that there was much to be gained. We need "to be
inspired by their example and learn from their experience" at overcoming
setbacks, failings, and limitations. He wrote in letter 128, as translated
in the JO (Dec 1981):
   ...A failing many of us suffer from is, that when we consider the
   aspects of perfection of our sages, we focus on the ultimate level of
   their attainments... while omitting mention of the inner struggles
   that had previously raged within them. A listener would get the
   impression that these individuals came out of the hand of their
   Creator in full-blown form.

    Everyone is awed at the purity of speech of the Chofetz Chaim,
    z.t.l., considering it a miraculous phenomenon. But who knows of the
    battles, struggles and obstacles, the slumps and regressions that
    the Chofetz Chaim encountered in his war with the yetzer horo (evil
    inclination)? There are many such examples, to which a discerning
    individual such as yourself can certainly apply the rule.

    The result of this failing is that when an ambitious young man
    of spirit and enthusiasm meets obstacles, falls and slumps, he
    imagines himself as unworthy of being 'planted in the house of
    Hashem.' According to this young man's fancy, flourishing in the house
    of Hashem means to repose with calm spirit on 'lush meadows' beside
    'tranquil waters' (Tehilim-Psalm 23) delighting in the yetzer hatov
    [good inclination], in the manner of the righteous delighting in the
    reflection of the Shechina [Divine Presence], with crowns on their
    heads, gathered in Gan Eden [Garden of Eden]. And at the same time,
    untroubled by the agitation of the yetzer hora....

    Know, however, my dear friend, that your soul is rooted not in
    the TRANQUILITY of the yetzer tov, but rather in the BATTLE of the
    yetzer tov. And your precious warm-hearted letter 'testifies as one
    hundred witnesses' that you are a worthy warrior in the battalion
    of the yetzer tov. The English expression, 'Lose a battle and win
    a war' applies. Certainly you have stumbled, and will tumble again
    (a self-fulfilling prophecy is not intended) and in many battles
    you will fall lame. I promise you, though, that after those losing
    campaigns you will emerge from the war with the laurels of victory
    upon your head.... Lose battles but win wars.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 03:23:08PM -0400, I just wrote:
: R' Hutner believed that there was much to be gained. We need "to be
: inspired by their example and learn from their experience" at overcoming
: setbacks, failings, and limitations. He wrote in letter 128, as translated
: in the JO (Dec 1981):...

I should have mentioned Mishlei 24:15:
    Ki sheva yipol tzadiq vaqam
    ursha'im yishashlu vera'ah

Where are we supposed to learn how to dust ourselves off and get up again
if we erase from our memories all the examples we are to learn from?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:

>  I was struck by these 2 views of history. It would be interesting to
> consider where on the spectrum we as individuals and communities fall out.
> KT
> Joel Rich
>

Doesn't TANACH & many of the stories in the Gemorah contradict RSS's
thesis?  Good and bad stories are told of the same people or same types of
people.  I think both types are purposely put in to inspire us.  Why
conflate inspirational stories with history?

Saul




>
>
>

> ====================================================
> http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/4815/features/until-a-hundred-twenty/
>
>  <SNIP>
>  And how does fulfilling the historian?s duty help us ?face? the present
> and future?  It is, of course, too soon to tell in any simple sense; but,
> although historians cannot predict the future, ?there are certain things
> that the historian can and should do.  He can look at what has been
> happening and what is happening and see change developing.?  By doing so,
> Lewis says, ?he can formulate, I will not say predictions, but
> possibilities, alternative possibilities, things that may happen.?
> =============================================================
>
> Rabbi Shimon Schwab & Historic Truth
>
> SNIP
>
What is gained by pointing out their inadequacies and their contradictions?
> We want to be inspired by their example and learn from their experience...
> Rather than write the history of our forebears, every generation has to put
> a veil over the human failings of its elders and glorify all the rest which
> is great and beautiful. That means we have to do without a real history
> book. We can do without. We do not need realism, we need inspiration from
> our forefathers in order to pass it onto posterity.
>
> Selected Writings (Lakewood, 1988)
>
>
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Okay, but I think the question is more complicated for us.  Tanakh is 
not a history book.  The selections of history that are included in it 
are included for teaching reasons.  In terms of what we understand as 
history, Tanakh is an extremely biased view, which leaves out so many 
(historically) pertinent facts that if we knew the full history of the 
times being recorded, Tanakh would look virtually dishonest to us.

For example, there are Assyrian records that show Ahab leading a 
coalition of Phoenecian and Aramean states against their Assyrian 
overlords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarqar).  There's no 
hint of this in the books of Kings or Chronicles.  The Mesha Stele 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_stele) describes Omri conquering a 
lot of Moab and building in their capitol.  Again, there's nothing about 
that in our records.  In the actual historical context, it turns out 
that the northern kingdom of Israel wasn't even what we'd call a 
kingdom.  It was a number of independent city-states, only somewhat 
allied with one another.  Some of our worst kings had major military 
victories, and some of our best kings were failures by normal historical 
standards.

So the question is whether there's a value for us in learning the actual 
history, even when, or particularly when, the picture we gain from it 
includes elements that the Nevi'im and Sofrim intentionally omitted, 
lest we learn the wrong lessons.

Lisa


On 8/21/2012 2:26 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 03:23:08PM -0400, I just wrote:
> : R' Hutner believed that there was much to be gained. We need "to be
> : inspired by their example and learn from their experience" at overcoming
> : setbacks, failings, and limitations. He wrote in letter 128, as translated
> : in the JO (Dec 1981):...
>
> I should have mentioned Mishlei 24:15:
>      Ki sheva yipol tzadiq vaqam
>      ursha'im yishashlu vera'ah
>
> Where are we supposed to learn how to dust ourselves off and get up again
> if we erase from our memories all the examples we are to learn from?
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
>    

RAM brought the following example of a tevilla for increasing kedusha:
>  I think the simplest example of this is the many tevilos done by the
> Kohen Gadol on Yom Kippur - surely no one thinks that there's any
> tumah he needs to get rid of. I would think that tevilas keilim is another
> example - the pots aren't really tameh, are they?

I don't think so. If that were so, you should be able to argue that as
the day progressed, the KG was being holier and holier. However, AFAIR
he ended the day with bigdei zahav.

Instead, I think it is fairly straightforward that he needs to tovel
because he is changing clothing, and undressing creates a need to dip
in the mikve.

KNLAD.

KT,

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Toleranz aber ohne Respekt ? zwei Artikel zur Brit Mil?
* Ein Volk, eine Gemeinde ? R?ckblick auf dem Freitagabend-Anlass
* Die Beschneidung ist im Judentum unentbehrlich
* Joe the Pumber, Guns Control and the Lethal Oppression of the Masses
* Offene Brief an die Redaktion von ?Die Zeit?
* Alle sind gleich vor dem Schabbat, dem hochmodernen Ruhetag
* Thoughts on a Polarizing Society
* Do we Owe Respect to Old Bones?

It seems to me that the source for those women who treat taking chalah
as an eis ratzon for tefilah is the mishneh in Bameh Madlikin, and perhaps
also the line in the zemer _Yom Shabbos Kodesh Hu_ that talks about the
reward for women who keep these three mitzvos, rather than the punishment
for those who don't.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 09:41:34AM +1000, Meir Rabi wrote:
: It was suggested to me that since breeding herds of BP would sidestep
: Hilchos Shechitah,Tereifos, Cheilev and Gid, it must be a non preferred
: option.

SA YD 13:4 says that the child of two BP would require sheechitah
medrabbanan.

But the general question of whether it's a bad thing to engineer an
avoidance of a qiyum asei in order to avoid poasible issurim is itself
an interesting one. It reminds me of the people on-list who preferred
eating non-Israeli produce so as to avoid making mistakes in hafrashas
teruman uma'aser. Rather than learning how to be mafrish and thereby
get those mitzvos, a holier fruit, and aiding the Jewish economy in EY.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 08:48:05AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://tinyurl.com/bve3obb
> Rabbis Go to Museum to Probe Kashrut, Tiny Worms and Fish
...
> Given the totality of the worms? development, Bess and many of his 
> contemporaries argue that fish products containing these worms should be  
> off-limits. "There's no question that the worms are visible to the eye 
> [before entering the fish]," he said. "Therefore, according to the 
> Talmud, it should be forbidden."

> Regarding the OU's certification, he added: "It's an extremely weak 
> position and doesn't really work with the reasoning of any of the 
> halachic authorities throughout the generations."

> Read more: <http://forward.com/articles/160736/a-kosher-can-of-worms>

The problem I have with the line of trasoning in the seifa is that chazal
themselves ate fish that the Greeks, 500 years before them, already knew
carried anisakis. This is a new pesaq lechumerah in a very old question.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:39:01AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Which raises a question that has fascinated me for a long time and to
: which I've heard some interesting answers (including it's not a question)
: - what led beit Hillel and beit Shamai to their respective approaches
: (or Hillel and Shamai)?

Hillel and Shammai have all of three machloqesin that they didn't
eventually agree upon. Which is why the gemara asks what happened that
their talmidim had so many machloqesin. "Shelo shimshu es rabosam."

The Maharal on Avos explains that because of this lack of shimush,
talmidei BH didn't realize how much of Hillel's approach was because
his role was that of nasi. They saw the role,not the person or his
ideology. Since a nasi orders society and works in chesed, they tended to
bring that chesed into how they pasqened. Similarly Beis Shammai became
overly influenced by the middas hadin they learned from their rebbe,
the av beis din.

Chesed ended up winning the day, IMHO, for two reasons -- to take my own
spin on two other maamarei chazal:

1- It led to greater respect for the opposing opinion. Beis Hillel would
quote Beis Shammai's position before their own. But this also means that
BH actually considered both sides before deciding. Much like the reasoning
behind halahah kebasrai.

2- People like chesed, which gave Beis Hillel the majority of talmidim.

Ideologically "olam chesed yibaneh", it's better to err in that direction.
But that's a hashkafic point, not one that gives halachic authority to one
side or the other.

:                         What leads current day poskim?

As I wrote a few times around 2 or 3 years ago, I think pesaq comes from
the weighing of several conflicting priorities. It's not a simple algorithm,
for which you can have hard-and-fast rules. The concerns a poseiq addresses
appear to fit three general areas:
    - legal merit and authority (how many people said it before and who,
      how compelling he finds their argument, etc...)

    - aggadic value (does it fit the Zohar? the sho'el's derekh?)

    - practical mesorah (memetic tradition / toras imekha)

Today there is also much weight being given to the sociological
implications of a pesaq. What will ruling X vs Y do to the future of
the qehillah? I am not sure how much these para-halachic considerations
produce pesaq halakhah rather than hora'as derekh -- the line seems to
be blurry.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Rabbi Arie Folger wrote:

> I think it is fairly straightforward that he needs to tovel
> because he is changing clothing, and undressing creates a need
> to dip in the mikve.

And what is the connection between changing clothing and tevilah? If you
say that he is likely to touch his covered places while changing, thus
requiring hand-washing, that would only apply after he has completed the
changing. But my recollection is that he is tovel both before and after --
ten tevilos for five changings.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Dealing With Incontinence
Learn About This Medical Condition. What You May Be Able To Do About It
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/503403d839c6f3d779a0st04vuc

At 02:39 PM 8/21/2012, R. Joel Rich wrote:

>A very rationalist approach (which suits me just 
>fine) BUT (and perhaps very much to the point of 
>the Aishdas society) there is obviously 
>something rotten in Rationalistland if we have 
>large groups of people who are seeking the eit 
>ratzons of R' Nachman assumedly because they are 
>not finding  fulfillment in tfila and doing 
>mitzvot because we are so commanded and doing 
>them is what pleases HKB"H.  Unfortunately I 
>don't think there are quick fixes to this issue 
>and I'm not sure we won't be yotzeh scharo 
>bhefsedo if we try to discourage these practices 
>without something more than just people should 
>understand better what HKB"H wants of them.

There is a tendency in some circles to think of 
Judaism as some sort of "magical hocus 
pocus,"  which it most certainly is not.  I think 
to some extent this results from people thinking 
that Judaism is a religion like other religions, 
which again it is not.  RSRH points out that 
religion is man's thoughts about the Creator, 
whereas Judaism is the Creator's thoughts about 
man.  Thus to categorize Judaism as a religion is 
to do it an injustice.  See RSRH's essay Sivan I 
at http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/sivan_1.pdf for more on this.

I agree that "there are no quick fixes to this 
issue."  More than this,  everyone of these 
"Segulas"  that are being presented with more and 
more frequency these days feeds this view of 
hocus pocus as being a part of Judaism.

The 9 Sivan 5768 issue of Hamodia Magazine 
featured an article about segulos.  (The Hamodia 
kindly gave me permission to post the article on 
my web site, and it is at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/hamodia/segulos.pdf 
)  In part the article quotes  the Mezhbuzher 
Rav, Harav Avraham Yehoshua Heshel Bick. According to him

[Segulos ] are nothing more than bubbe maasos, eitzas yetzer hara that
give people a license to spend money way beyond their means and then ask
for a yeshuah. All these formulae ? saying Shir Hashirim forty times, Tehillim
HaChida, etc. ? are methods used by the yetzer hara to take from us the little
[spirituality] we have left.

Prayer, on the other hand, is not a segulah ; 
prayer is a way of communicating with the Ribbono
shel Olam. When we use segulos to get what we 
want, it?s as if we are stealing something from Him,
something that is not rightfully ours. It reminds 
me of today?s Chinese auctions at charitable events.
Whereas women used to give charity without 
ulterior motives, they have now replaced their mitzvos
with Chinese auctions.

Another contributing factor to the belief that 
Judaism is some sort of magical hocus pocus is, 
IMO,  the fact that children are often taught in 
yeshiva the most fantastic of midrashim and given 
the impression that they are to be taken 
literally.  Thus,  from a young age the idea of 
magical hocus pocus is implanted in people's minds.

R.  Avigdor Miller would "push away" all 
fantastic stories.  I once asked him why, and he 
replied,  "Our minds are strained enough by what 
we are required to believe,  to add to this is 
not wise."   I think that this is an important 
thing to keep in mind when it comes to one's approach to Yahadus.

YL
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Five tevilos, ten times kiddush yadayim veraglayim.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:54 PM, Akiva Miller <kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:
> And what is the connection between changing clothing and tevilah? If
> you say that he is likely to touch his covered places while changing,
> thus requiring hand-washing, that would only apply after he has
> completed the changing. But my recollection is that he is tovel both
> before and after -- ten tevilos for five changings.



-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Toleranz aber ohne Respekt ? zwei Artikel zur Brit Mil?
* Ein Volk, eine Gemeinde ? R?ckblick auf dem Freitagabend-Anlass
* Die Beschneidung ist im Judentum unentbehrlich
* Joe the Pumber, Guns Control and the Lethal Oppression of the Masses
* Offene Brief an die Redaktion von ?Die Zeit?
* Alle sind gleich vor dem Schabbat, dem hochmodernen Ruhetag
* Thoughts on a Polarizing Society
* Do we Owe Respect to Old Bones?

I CC-ed my post to the Business Halakhah Institute. This was their
reply. Unsurprisingly, pretty much what REMT said, but they add the
topic of "mechusar amanah".

-micha

--- Forwarded message from Gershon Schaffel <gersh...@businesshalacha.com> ---

Thank you so much for contacting us and I apologize for the delayed
response. According to Shulchan Aruch "mi shepara" applies when money
was transferred but the customer has not yet taken delivery of the
merchandise. Mechusar amanah applies when there is a verbal agreement
to make a kinyan but neither the money nor the merchandise has yet been
exchanged. I hope this clarifies matters but if not please let me know.

Hatzlacha Rabba,

---
Gershon Schaffel
Business Halacha Institute
 
Thank you for contacting the Business Halacha Institute Hotline. We
would appreciate any feedback you can offer, as we constantly strive to
improve the quality of our hotline service.

In addition, first-person testimonials are very powerful in encouraging
others to reach out to rabbonim with business halacha shailos. If you
would be kind enough to provide us with a few lines, we would be very
grateful. There is a possibility that we may publish your testimonial. If
you prefer that we do not use your name, please let us know. We will
make sure to only print your thoughts anonymously.

On 22/08/2012 3:46 PM, Yosef Skolnick wrote:
> Can you elaborate on the connection between reward for doing something and it being a time of divine favor to allow for tefillos?

It's the specific reward, which is very important to women, and something
they naturally pray for a lot.  So when they're told that if they do this
mitzvah they will receive it, it's natural that when they do so they will
pray that this happen, that the zechus of the mitzvah should have this
effect, because they know that there are no guarantees and tefillah is
necessary; in effect it's *because they know* that challah is not an
amulet that they daven in addition to doing the mitzvah, and ask Hashem
to do as He has promised them.  Thus it is truly an eis ratzon, a time
when Hashem will surely listen to their tefilos.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

One may download this article that appeared in Tradition at 
http://www.mesora.org/mezuza-gordon.pdf

Towards the end of this article the author writes

To claim, then, that the Divine inscription, which directs the attention of
the Jew to God, is possessed of its own potency, generating protective
benefits, perverts a spiritual instrumentality into a cultic charm.
It is precisely this type of conception which R. Samson
Rafael Hirsch attacks in his Nineteen Letters, when he criticizes
the kabbalistic position for its perception of mitsvot as a "magical
mechanism," a means of "influencing theosophical
worlds and anti-worlds." A belief in the potency of
the shem fits into neither of the two classic categories of mitsvah
initiative we have referred to.  It fosters neither the resourceful
practical effort toward physical security, nor the profoundly
spiritual bond with God.

The point is that the only legitimate criterion by which the
efficacy of mitsvat mezuzah should be measured is the depth
relationship with God that it has inspired.

YL
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