Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 104

Tue, 31 Jul 2012

• 1. Re: what proportion would return to the yeshiva (Poppers, Michael)
• 2. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on (D&E-H Bannett)
• 3. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Marty Bluke)
• 4. Re: Showering During the Nine Days (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)
• 7. Se'udas Mitzvah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: ceremonies in halacha (Micha Berger)
• 14. Imposing dress codes on non-Jews (Marty Bluke)
• 15. Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Prof. Levine)
• 16. The Bible cites itself (David Riceman)
• 17. Re: The Bible cites itself (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 20. Re: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews (Micha Berger)

In Avodah V30n99, RBW asked:
> As a followup question, do we really have rabbanim who have the din of 
the local rav today? With everyone able to get into a car and drive to 
see some gadol or write him a fax or call transatlantic, is there such a 
thing as a local rav? <
Indubitably.  I grew up and was (and still am) a member of KAJ/"Breuer's,"
a legitimate q'hillah, and as a married man am a member of the JEC of
Elizabeth (whose Mara d'Asra is a listmember), another q'hillah (which,
nowadays, has a Rabbinate, i.e. a Rav for each member shul). 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

For the past ten years or so there is an electronic water 
meter made in Israel  that, after modification to meet the 
requirements, was approved for Shabbat use by Rabbi Halperin 
of the Institute for Science and Halakha.

So, there is additional reason for making aliya.


David 

R' Micha Berger wrote:
"The subject of billing is lo nicha lei because that side of the
transaction /is/ separable from the receiving side. There are more
possibilities in the universe than buy vs steal."

I don;t understand your point here at all. When I turn on the faucet it
causes 2 things to happen:
1. The water starts flowing
2. The meter measure the water flow

The question of neicha lei is whether I want the meter to record my usage
or not? IMHO, the answer is yes. I am being billed by usage, if the usage
is not recorded then I have no way of paying for the water so I want the
usage to be recorded which means it is neicha lei.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120726/bad1ec99/attachment-0001.htm>

R' Joel Schnur wrote:

> ... BTW, Rav Moshe allowed laundered shirts to be worn during
> the nine days. He held that ONLY starched shirts were forbidden
> for first time use... I spoke with Rav Aron Felder...  In his
> words, it was the "snap" of a starched shirt that Rav Moshe said
> was the issur. When I asked about No-Iron shirts, he reiterated
> "starched shirts because of their snap, that's all."

The Mechaber 442:3 mentions starch in the context of laundry that might
contain chometz, so he was clearly aware of this technology. If so, why is
it raised in a Nine Days context only by such recent poskim?

Further, if the "snap" is a critical factor, that would seem to apply only
to clothes which were pressed (=ironed), yet Mishneh Brurah 551:23 seems to
say that such clothes may not be worn until after Tish'a B'Av. (Perhaps I'm
misunderstanding what "gihutz" is.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Dealing With Incontinence
Learn About This Medical Condition. What You May Be Able To Do About It
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/501130668b7f130661438st54vuc

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 03:23:30PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: I don't understand your point here at all. When I turn on the faucet it
: causes 2 things to happen:
: 1. The water starts flowing
: 2. The meter measure the water flow
: 
: The question of neicha lei is whether I want the meter to record my usage
: or not? IMHO, the answer is yes. I am being billed by usage, if the usage
: is not recorded then I have no way of paying for the water so I want the
: usage to be recorded which means it is neicha lei.

I was questioning your assuming that "I am being billed by usage" is a
given, and therefore whether nicha lei or lo nicha lei to purchase the
water rather than steal it. The lo nicha lei includes being billed by
usage, which is what necessitated having the meter. I don't want the
meter nor the billing; I would be happier if PVWC put the meter on a
timer and gave me my water for free on Shabbos. Therefore, helping them
bill me is lo nicha lei.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 26/07/2012 8:23 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:

> The question of neicha lei is whether I want the meter to record my
> usage or not? IMHO, the answer is yes. I am being billed by usage, if
> the usage is not recorded then I have no way of paying for the water
> so I want the usage to be recorded which means it is neicha lei.

On the contrary, you'd much rather it was not recorded, and you were
given the water for free.  Paying for the water is not a benefit to you,
it's a harm, albeit one you've consented to as a condition of getting the
water, so it's definitely "lo nicha leih".

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

RRW just posted the following on Nishma's blog
<http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2012/07/rav-kook-your-kitche
n-is-serving-seudat.html>

    Rav Kook: "Your kitchen is serving a se'udat mitzvah."
    from NishmaBlog by Rabbi R Wolpoe

    Tisha B'Av: The Poel Mizrachi Kitchen

    Mr. Avraham Mavrach was a founding member of the Poel Mizrachi,
    established in 1922 for religious pioneers in Eretz Yisrael. One of
    the most important decisions made during the first assembly of the
    Poel Mizrachi was to open kosher kitchens for new immigrants and
    workers. ...

    ... He suggested turning to the Chief Rabbinate; perhaps the rabbis
    would find a leniency that would permit the new customers to eat
    meat so that they would not go back to eating in the non-kosher
    kitchens. The other members laughed at this suggestion. ...

    Rav Kook turned to Avraham. "Do you think that some of the workers
    who eat there will end up going to a non-kosher kitchen?"

    "Yes," Avraham responded. "They ate there beforehand."

    "If that is the case," Rav Kook pronounced, "your kitchen is serving
    a se'udat mitzvah. 'Let the humble eat and be satisfied' (Ps. 27:22)."

    Astounded, Avraham remained frozen to his spot. Rav Kook smiled. "Do
    you have another question?" Avraham replied that he was uncertain
    about the Rav's decision. Did this mean that everyone could eat meat
    there? Rav Kook repeated his words, and explained that everyone -
    even those who would not be tempted to eat at a non-kosher kitchen -
    could eat meat in the kitchen because it would be serving a se'udat
    mitzvah. Despite his amazement, Avraham managed to steal a glance
    at the other rabbis in the room. It seemed that they, too, were
    surprised by the Rav's decision, but they raised no objections.
    ...

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Thinking about it, I concluded that the rule from Shmirat Shabbat Cheleq 
3 about what constitutes preparing for "after Shabbat" should apply 
here. If someone is careful to always brush his teeth immediately after 
eating, than it would be OK to do so Shabbat afternoon before the fast. 
If someone isn't so careful to brush that quickly, than brushing this 
Shabbat would constitute chachana.

Ben

On 7/25/2012 6:49 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Any heter to brush one's teeth this Shabbat after Seudat Shlishit 
> (before sundown of course)?
>
> Ben
> __

How about this.  We found an excellent way to get through a fast 
easily.  The day before the fast, we eat half a canister of Pringles.  
And drink a ton.  The salt helps retain water.  So when the fast is 
Motzaei Shabbat, our question is whether we can do this.  Since we 
wouldn't ordinarily chow down on half a can of Pringles on Shabbat.  I 
actually emailed my rav, but I haven't heard back yet.

Lisa


On 7/27/2012 7:00 AM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> Thinking about it, I concluded that the rule from Shmirat Shabbat 
> Cheleq 3 about what constitutes preparing for "after Shabbat" should 
> apply here. If someone is careful to always brush his teeth 
> immediately after eating, than it would be OK to do so Shabbat 
> afternoon before the fast. If someone isn't so careful to brush that 
> quickly, than brushing this Shabbat would constitute chachana.
>
> Ben
>
> On 7/25/2012 6:49 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
>> Any heter to brush one's teeth this Shabbat after Seudat Shlishit 
>> (before sundown of course)?
>>
>> Ben
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120727/41baf5d0/attachment-0001.htm>

On 27/07/2012 1:09 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> How about this.  We found an excellent way to get through a fast
> easily.  The day before the fast, we eat half a canister of Pringles. 
> And drink a ton.  The salt helps retain water.  So when the fast is
> Motzaei Shabbat, our question is whether we can do this.  Since we
> wouldn't ordinarily chow down on half a can of Pringles on Shabbat.  I
> actually emailed my rav, but I haven't heard back yet.

I don't see why it would not be allowed.  People don't usually have a
huge seudah shlishit either, but nobody suggests that it's not allowed
because of hachana.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 02:05:13PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> I don't see why it would not be allowed.  People don't usually have a
> huge seudah shlishit either, but nobody suggests that it's not allowed
> because of hachana.

Perhaps because we require only the thinnest of explanations for how
it might be usable on Shabbos in order to consider it

Eg:
You can wash the glasses as long as there is any chance guests might come
and you'll want to serve the a drink. (Shabbos 118a) Even in the winter,
when you're more likely to offer a hot drink in a mug... Admittedly the
AhS 323:7 explicitly excludes the case where you have enough clean glasses
to cover plausible need without washing them. But that's not a given --
Mishneh Halakhos 3:40 permits!

So it would seem that having a primary motive that is for after Shabbos
is not hachanah as long as you can have a side motive of preparing for
Shabbos. And I would think that that means that if you enjoy the food
on Shabbos the fact that you're eating more because of the coming taanis
wouldn't be enough to declare it hachanah. What do you think?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 27/07/2012 2:44 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> So it would seem that having a primary motive that is for after Shabbos
> is not hachanah as long as you can have a side motive of preparing for
> Shabbos. And I would think that that means that if you enjoy the food
> on Shabbos the fact that you're eating more because of the coming taanis
> wouldn't be enough to declare it hachanah. What do you think?

Well, the same would apply to RLL's Pringles.  But I think that hachana,
like "vedaber davar", works much like mar'is ha'ayin.  If it doesn't
*look* like hachana, and you don't *say* it's hachana, then it isn't.
Thus one is allowed to take a walk on Shabbos that happens to take one
right up to the techum, and then cross the techum as soon as Shabbos is
over and keep going.  One just can't *say* that one is doing so.  One may
take a nap on Shabbos Erev Pesach, or Erev Shavuos, but one may not say
"let's take a nap so we can stay up tonight".

But here I think even this is too little.  I've never heard a kepeida
against calling the afternoon meal a "seudah hamafsekes".  I've never
heard a kepeida against telling someone to drink so you won't bethirsty
tomorrow, as there is against telling someone to sleep so they can be
up for the seder.  Has anyone else heard of such a thing?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

I'm reviving a thread that ended Dec 1, 2011.
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=C#CEREMONIES%
20IN%20HALACHA

On Nov 28 <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n239.shtml#07> I wrote:
> RYZS ("R' Velvel") holds that when Ashkenazim perform minhagim with
> such matbeios, eg lighting a Chanukah menorah in shul, they do make a
> berakhah; and when performing ones that do not, eg Chatzi Hallel. I do
> not claim to know how the BR defines a close enough imitation to qualify
> as having the same matbeia.

As opposed to klapping hoshanos, the oldest minhag, which gets no berakhah
because it doesn't follow an matbei'as mitzvah.

This notion of matbeias mitzvah also explains why most Ashkenazios make
berakhos on mitzvos asei shehazman gerama. Leshitaso, it's one machloqes.


I had an odd thought...

The Gra made a berakhah "al akhilas matzah" whenever eating matzah during
the entire 8 days of Pesach. He holds that while the mitzvah chiyuvis
is only the first night(s) of Pesach, there is a qiyum mitzvah by eating
matzah the rest of Pesach.

Well, I was thinking... According to RYZS, even if one doesn't hold like
the Gra WRT a mitzvah qiyumis, perhaps one should stll make a berakhah
on performing a matbeias mitzvah in avoidance of the issur of chameitz.
And if not in general, perhaps on Shabbos ch"m and the last days, when
the se'udos are chiyuvim and therefore eating matzah is unavoidable.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

There has been a discussion on areivim about the dress codes that some
Chasidim are imposing on their non-Jewish customers in their stores in
Brooklyn. I think this discussion brings up a much broader issues, and that
is what are the rules for non-Jews in terms of tznius, sexual morality
etc.? Are there any halachos relating to tznius for non-Jews? To take it to
the extreme is there anything wrong with a non-Jew being a nudist? Watching
pornography? Having casual (or paid for) sex (as the Rambam describes at
the beginning of Hilchos Ishus regarding kodem matan torah which should
still apply to non-jews)? If yes, why? We have various halachos of kedoshim
tihyu, lo tasuru acharei eyneichem, etc. why would any of these apply to a
non-Jew? If they don't should we be trying to impose our morality (for lack
of a better word) on the non-Jews?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120730/249d8e10/attachment-0001.htm>

Please see the scholarly article at 
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%202%20Zelcer.pdf 
(<http://hakirah.org/Vol%202%20Zelcer.pdf>

Does Daf Yomi<http://hakirah.org/Vol%202%20Zelcer.pdf> Exemplify 
Talmud Torah?)

that appeared in Volume 2 of Hakirah.  This article concludes

Based on our analysis, we have shown that reading the text of the
Mishnah or the Gemara without understanding it is not Talmud Torah.
Furthermore, a superficial understanding of Torah She-be'al Peh that
does not sink into one's mind is clearly not the ideal form of Talmud
Torah. We are also warned explicitly to review and remember what we
learned. The ideal type of Talmud Torah is thus to study and analyze
carefully, and gain new insights into the primary Torah sources. These
insights and understandings must then be reviewed repeatedly until
one internalizes them and they become part of one's long-term
memory.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120731/ef0b0991/attachment-0001.htm>

There are lots of implicit self citations in the Bible, e.g., Eicha 2:1 
"v'lo zachar hadom raglav" alluding to Isaiah 66:1 "v'ha'aretz hadom 
raglay".  That's useful because the citation can't be the other way 
around (only Isaiah spells out the nimshal) and it fits the traditional 
chronology but not the chronology advocated by Biblical critics.

I've run across several examples like this, but I've never been 
organized enough to take notes.  Does anyone know of a published list, 
or would anyone care to contribute examples to help make such a list?

Thanks,

David Riceman

On 31/07/2012 2:02 PM, David Riceman wrote:
> or would anyone care to contribute examples to help make such a list?

Melachim 2:14:6 cites Devarim 24:16

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 12:55am BST, Chana Luntz wrote:
: I did say:
:>> But the problem with that is if you take it too far, as I suggested 
:>> in my earlier post, then you ought to get women off scot free from 
:>> committing adultery, because they never do any act, it is always the 
:>> man doing it all.
...

I wasn't the "you" in the above, but I was arguing a middle ground. That
a cheit without a maaseh isn't yeihareig ve'al ya'avor, even if still a
cheit. And even if she performs a maaseh, since it's the same cheit with
or without it, she isn't in a yeihareig ve'al ya'avor situation either
way.

...
: Firstly, it depends on what you mean by passivity....
:                                        My understanding of what the gemora
: is saying is that women do not, as a matter of fact, do an act in the course
: of tashmish, as the gemora understands the term act ie ma'aseh.  Ie it is
: *not possible* for a woman to do an act in the course of tashmish....

We get to the same point, but I don't think it's that the possibility of
an act is ruled out as much as the necessity of an act is, and therefore
the act is diassociated from the actual issur.

Except WRT gilui da'as. As RnCL puts it:
: And so similarly is this in Yael's head - if she had intended to have
: pleasure/benefit from Sisera, she would have been guilty of an averah
: b'mazid.  But her act was not shogeg (she did not forget that adultery was
: assur, or have it happen thinking that he was her husband when he wasn't),
: nor was it mesasek, she intended the act to occur.  Thus the gemora
: characterised it as an averah, but an averah lishma....


On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 10:37am EDT, R David Riceman replied to RnCL:
> And this leads you into incredible contortions.  How can a woman be  
> guilty of adultery without doing a ma'aseh? You claim it depends on her  
> state of mind.  Whereas if under normal circumstances she does a  
> ma'aseh, it's easy to define adultery, and only the exceptional cases  
> are hard.

A problem avoided by my formulation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

We discussed this last cycle. It's a tanna who lays out shelish bemiqra,
shelish bemishnah and shelish bigeamara [some gira'os: betalmud]. So
gemara / talmud doesn't mean the book. As the Rambam writes (Talmud Torah
1:11), it's lehavin davar mitokh davar and where the halakhah comes from.

This is what they had in mind when they named it "Talmud Bavli". The iqar
point of shas, then, is be'iyun. Learning beqi'us is to enable be'iyun.
For men (who are mechuyavim in talmud Torah) who have the time to do
both daf Yomi and regular be'iyun, it serves that goal. But for many,
where the 45 min a day means being told what the gemara means without
any ameilus, it's simply not what talmud is for.

Historically, this is what people learned mishnayos for, typically
with Bartenura.


I just fear (as I said on Areivim) that these discussions are an example
of "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Daf Yomi gets men in front of
sefarim, and while they could learn more or better, they are learning. (I
presume no one is claiming actual zero comprehension.) It's what we have,
and it works that far. Why are we knocking it without the facilities to
put in a better replacement? We don't even have an agreed upon proposal
of what that replacement would look like. And who will market it fast and
thoroughly enough to have the "market penetration" of daf yomi? Without
all these things we don't have, this kind of analysis will only reduce
total learning.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On 30-Jul-2012, at 4:24pm EST, the other RMB (R' Marty luke) asked:
> I think this discussion brings up a much broader issues, and that is
> what are the rules for non-Jews in terms of tznius, sexual morality
> etc.? Are there any halachos relating to tznius for non-Jews?

I don't think they have hilkhos tzeni'us, yichud, etc... but on a moral
plane, it makes sense for us to promote their compliance.

Tzeni'us is largely a collection of dinim derabbanan to protect people
from being tempted into issurim. (And most of the deOraisos probably
would have been banned derabbanan for the same reason.) Gilui arayos are
within the 7 mitzvos, at least enough instances to provide value to the
same issurim.

The same Areivim conversation discussed CM, and whether the halakhos
involving money imply fiscal ethics beyond the Jewish community.

I think there are two distinct concept in mitzvos bein adam lachaveiro:
morality and fraterinity.

We are allowed to charge nachriim ribis. If ribis were morally wrong,
that wouldn't be true. It would seem that the problem with ribis is that
it violates the fraternity of *Benei* Yisrael. "Vechai *achikha* imakh."

Similarly, hasagas gevul.

I would therefore think the question of how Capitalist is the Torah's
ideal economy depends on whether we are prohibited things like onaas
mammon WRT nakhriim.

This line of reasoning falls, though, when one compares geneivas aku"m
with geneivas da'as aku"m, where the latter is more directly assur.

Thoughts?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 104
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."