Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 95

Wed, 18 Jul 2012

• 1. Re: Lehadlik Ner (Joel C. Salomon)
• 2. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Lehadlik Ner (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: LED "tealights" for Shabbos candles (Poppers, Michael)
• 5. Re: Lehadlik Ner (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: LED "tealights" for Shabbos candles (Micha Berger)
• 7. Partnership Minyanim (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 8. The Value of Yir'as Shamayim -- SciAm weighs in (Micha Berger)
• 9. Halachos of the Nine Days and Tisha B'Av (Nidcheh) 5772 (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Eating meat until the 7th of AV (Jeff Junk)
• 11. shmira of limud tora (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. havara -- tov - tes -- was: Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (hankman)
• 13. vigilantism (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 14. 11th of Av? (Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier)
• 15. Re: 11th of Av? (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: 11th of Av? (Akiva Blum)
• 17. Bein Hameitzarim (Liron Kopinsky)
• 18. If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Marty Bluke)

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:36 AM, R. Allan Engel wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
>>
>> But that's Modern Hebrew, and a mere introduction to the real questions,
>> which are: What does "l'hadlik ner" mean in Lashon Hakodesh? What is a
>> "ner"? What of a light which does *not* consume any fuel? Does lighting
>> such a light constitute "hadlaka"?
>
> A similar question could arise over the brocho for tefillin.
>
> The mitzva is to wear tefillin, but the brocho is 'Lehoniach Tefillin' - to
> 'put them on'. The 'putting on' is merely the process by which the mitzva is
> achieved, not the mitzva itself, unlike, say, 'Al Achilas Matza'.
>
> Similarly, 'Lehadlik Ner' could the process by which the desired result,
> extra light, is achieved. Perhaps in both cases the 'action' is secondary to
> the result.
>
> The nafka mina with tefillin might be when a man does not put on his own
> tefillin, for example if he's old or ill (or when boys have tefillin put on
> for them by chasiddic Rebbes).

If I remember correctly from my bar mitzva pshet'l, this ties in to
the brocho "AKBV al mitzvas tefillin" made on tefillin shel rosh. The
shel rosh has the additional aspect of forbidding hesech hadaas while
it's worn; the mitzva therefore is in the wearing rather than (as with
the shel yad) in the donning.

?J. Chesky Salomon

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 08:12:55PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
:> Angaria is "bevinyan, vachavita ... lishruras hamelekh" (from which Hil'
:> Talmud Torah 6:10 exempts the TC), not lehilakheim.

: No, it means ANY service that the govt. imposes.

Which in Asa's case was dismantling an already-conquered fortress,
as per the rest of the pasuq.

And in Avraham's case, the words are laholikham lemilkhamah and this weird
"angaria". Latzeis lemilkhamah, used dozens of times in chazal for going
out to fight, does not appear.

Why in these two instances where the discussion is TC being improperly
utilized, Chazal uniquely apply to people the word they (and the Eastern
half of the Roman Empire) use for losing a donkey to Roman seizure? If
they're talking about drafting there is a usual idiom for drafting. To
me it seems clear they were actively trying to avoid implications of
being pressed into the army.

:> Depending upon what you walk up to the Rambam depending to find.

: You mean like the Tzitz Eliezer, RYMT, and Rav Arieli from Mercaz
: Harav did?

As I said, one could pasqen either way from the Rambam's comparison
of levi'im and TC. It was you who said one was "obviously" what the
Rambam meant.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 12:03:50PM -0400, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
: If I remember correctly from my bar mitzva pshet'l, this ties in to
: the brocho "AKBV al mitzvas tefillin" made on tefillin shel rosh. The
: shel rosh has the additional aspect of forbidding hesech hadaas while
: it's worn; the mitzva therefore is in the wearing rather than (as with
: the shel yad) in the donning.

The AhS notes that "al mitzvas tefillin" (if you're noheig to say it)
is said /after/ the tefillah shel rosh is put on. He also notes that
even if shel rosh and shel yad are separate mitzvos of the 613, there
are other cases where one berakhah is made on two mitzvos. He argues
that the "barukh sheim" isn't because of a possible berakhah levatalah,
because any chance of a berakhah levatalah would cause a safeiq berakhos
lehaqeil and eliminate AMT.

The AhS is therefore mechadeish that AMT is a birkhas hanehenin, not
a birkhas hamitzvah! We thank HQBH for "vesamti es shemi al BY", and
that's why we continue with "barukh sheim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In Avodah V30n91, R'Micha replied to RZS:
> You're correct, crossed wires on my part. But my questions about
> the matbeiah have parallels WRT "lehadliq neir" as well. Can turning
> on something without setting it on fire be called "hadlaqah"? Deleq
> includes to the consumption of the thing being burned; eg see the
> idiomatic use in Ovadiah pasuq 18 -- "... uveis Eisav leqash, vedalequ
> bahem va'akhalum...". If something that gives light without utilizing
> aish a "neir"?

Perhaps "hadlaqah" refers to providing fuel (e.g. electricity)
for consumption, regardless of the medium through which the fuel is
conveyed or of any side-effects (like light or heat); and "neir" refers
to enlightening (e.g. a mitzvah), regardless of the method?

All the best from 
 - Michael Poppers via BB pager

On 16/07/2012 6:36 AM, Allan Engel wrote:
> A similar question could arise over the brocho for tefillin.
>
> The mitzva is to wear tefillin, but the brocho is 'Lehoniach Tefillin'
> - to 'put them on'. The 'putting on' is merely the process by which
> the mitzva is achieved, not the mitzva itself, unlike, say, 'Al
> Achilas Matza'.

Is it?  The mitzvah is "ukshartam".

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 03:58:34PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: See http://www.yutorah.com/_materials/Candle%20Lighting%20Part%20II.pdf for
: a discussion of whether you can make a Beracha or not on electric lights
: and specifically fluorescent bulbs (the same would apply to LEDs). He
: quotes poskim with a variety of reasons why you would not make a beracha on
: electric lights.

Frustratingly, he talks about florescent lights and qiyum, but not
whether battery powered (so that there is only one person's action)
florescent lights would be a berakhah problem even according to RSZA
(who is the minority cited who allows a berakhah on incandescent bulbs)
for the reasons I raised.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 11:47:13AM -0400, Poppers, Michael wrote:
: Perhaps "hadlaqah" refers to providing fuel (e.g. electricity)
: for consumption, regardless of the medium through which the fuel is
: conveyed or of any side-effects (like light or heat);

I'm not sure electricity is a fuel. That's a literal "not sure"; I'm not
arguing, just questioning whether your "e.g." is valid. The electricity
isn't "consumed", it has no measurable weight, etc...

:                                                       and "neir" refers
: to enlightening (e.g. a mitzvah), regardless of the method?

Nur, from which we get neir and menorah, is also the shoresh of tanur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I was disappointed with the suggestion recently floated on-line
that there are no hard Halakhic issues at stake. On the contrary,
Partnership Minyanim are very halakhically problematic. Kindly see:

(1) "Partnership Minyanim," Aryeh A. Frimer and Dov I. Frimer, "Text and
Texture" of the Rabbinical Council of America (May 23, 2010); available
online at http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=909.

(2) "Lo Zo haDerekh: A Review of Rabbi Prof. Daniel
Sperber's Darka shel Halakha," Aryeh A. Frimer,
The Seforim Blog (12 June 2008). Available online at:
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2008/06/aryeh-frimer-review-of-dan
iel-sperbers.html.
PDF file of the corrected and reformatted article available online at
http://www.jofa.org/pdf/uploaded/1551-USOB5897.pdf.

In addition, my brother Dov and I are completing a 160 page MS on
the subject which will document why Gedolei haPoskim reject this idea
MeIkar haDin. See the above articles for the gist.

I should note that in a lecture given in July 2009, R. Joshua Shapiro
reported on a conference (held several years before) of the religious
Zionist rabbinic organization "Tzohar." A halakhic forum of leading
modern Orthodox poskim, comprised of Rabbis Jacob Ariel, Shlomo Aviner,
Chaim Druckman and Aaron Lichtenstein (all
Shlit"a), concluded that Kehillat Shira Hadasha has crossed the red
line of what could legitimately be considered Orthodox practice. See:
http://www.yrg.org.il/show.asp?id=33537. R. David Stav, Chairman of
Tzohar (conversation with DIF, Oct. 16, 2009), confirmed the accuracy
of this report.

IMHO the comments in that article were interesting but unguarded, to say the least.

        BeKhavod Rav
                Aryeh

--------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL

http://j.mp/ME97g7    or
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=tr
ying-to-resist-tempation-think-about-god

    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN
    Trying to Resist Temptation? Think about God
    The new science of self-control shows that religious themes can
    bolster willpower
    By Cindi May  | July 17, 2012 

    ... In a series of studies, Kevin Rounding and colleagues tested
    participants' self-control by asking them to endure discomfort to
    earn a reward, or to delay immediate payment to obtain a larger
    stipend. Before the test of self-control, half of the participants
    were exposed to words with religious themes (e.g., divine, spirit,
    God) in a puzzle-solving task, and half completed the same task
    without the religious primes. Those who saw the primes were willing
    to endure greater discomfort and delay gratification longer than
    those who did not. Additional studies showed that religious primes
    also fortified self-control after the fact. In these studies,
    participants first attempted to resist temptation, and afterward half
    of the participants viewed religious primes while the other half did
    not. Finally, all participants were faced with an additional task
    involving self-restraint. Exposure to the religious words refueled
    resolve, as participants who saw the religious primes were able to
    persist at a frustrating task far longer than those who did not....

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

See http://tinyurl.com/6rpom7z

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Hi

My in-laws remember growing up in NY that people ate meat until the 7th of
AV.  KSA 122:8 discusses people with difficulties being able to eat meat
until the 7th, but is anyone aware of a wider spread custom allowing this?

thanks

Jeff Sarasohn
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http://jewishworker.blogspot.co.il/2012/07/talmidei-cha
chamim-dont-need-protection.html
sources on how much  the learners can rely on their tora as a source of 
protection


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R?nCL quoted:
"ain l'na'arah ches maves"

CM remarks:
I would guess the havara of your upbringing was Israeli or sefardi who do
not differentiate between a tes and a tov. Thus they sometimes confuse
spelling with a tes or with a tov ? thus ches (with a sov/tov) rather than
chet (with a tes).

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
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http://www.vosizneias.com/109953/2012/07/16/new-york
-op-ed-on-vigilantism-and-ami-magazine

on the role of kanous  today, with sources 

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Normally, many of the hanhagos of Tisha b'Av and the 9 Days remain in 
effect until mid-day of the 10th of Av. With this year the 9th being on 
Shabbos and the fast and other hanhagos being held on the 10th, do we 
continue the hanhagos until the 11th at noon or can we do laundry, eat 
meat, cut hair, etc all on Motei Tisha b'Av?

Kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

On 17/07/2012 5:40 PM, Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier wrote:
> Normally, many of the hanhagos of Tisha b'Av and the 9 Days remain in
> effect until mid-day of the 10th of Av. With this year the 9th being
> on Shabbos and the fast and other hanhagos being held on the 10th, do
> we continue the hanhagos until the 11th at noon or can we do laundry,
> eat meat, cut hair, etc all on Motei Tisha b'Av?

My understanding is that meat and wine (except havdalah) are not allowed
until Monday morning, but all the other restrictions end with the fast.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:40 AM, Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier <
goldmeier.fam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Normally, many of the hanhagos of Tisha b'Av and the 9 Days remain in
> effect until mid-day of the 10th of Av. With this year the 9th being on
> Shabbos and the fast and other hanhagos being held on the 10th, do we
> continue the hanhagos until the 11th at noon or can we do laundry, eat
> meat, cut hair, etc all on Motei Tisha b'Av?
>
> See SA OH 558 Ramo.

Akiva
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Has anyone heard the idea that "Bein HaMeitzarim", literally, between the
narrows, is a time when we can't remain as individuals and are forced
together as a klal?

Besurot Tovot,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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In an interesting letter in yesterday's Yated Neeman a writer brought up
this issue. He claimed that in some places in Israel they have installed
electronic water meters and therefore you can't use the water on Shabbos.
He wanted to warn people who are planning a vacation to keep this in mind
when picking a destination.

It would seem that the letter writer is right about the problems of using
water on Shabbos if you have an electronic water meter. Every time you turn
on the water you are directly causing the electronic water meter to record
your use which falls under the general rubric of electricity.

There is no question that in the near future electronic water meters will
be everywhere. What will the religious community do? Not use water? There
is little to no chance chance of convincing the water company to not switch
to electronic meters. It will soon reach a point that we will not be able
to do anything without causing some reaction in some sensor. We have
already reached that point with hotels:

Electronic keys
Motion sensors which shut off the lights and air conditioning if there is
no movement
Faucets that go on and off based on motion sensors
Toilets with sensors
Automatic doors
Security cameras

I for one don?t see how a frum person can stay in many (if not most) hotels
in the US on Shabbos based on this.

If we just continue saying that electricity/electronics is assur we will
either not be able to do anything on Shabbos or have to become Amish.

The question is what will the reaction from the poskim be? RSZA opinion
that there really is no issur seems to be very well reasoned and I believe
is generally accepted. The question is will anyone have the courage to run
with it and say that in the modern world where circumstances have changed
we need to allow certain things (like electronic locks, refrigerator
sensors etc.) The fact is that in the next 10 years the incandescent light
bulb will go the way of the dodo which will remove the only issur doraysa
related to electricity (except for the Chazon Ish which does not seem to be
accepted). I know that there is a very fine line, it is clear that we don't
want people using computers, tv's, mp3 players, cell phones, etc. on
shabbos, on the other hand we are rapidly reaching a point where we will be
unable to do anything on Shabbos in a modern home. The poskim need to come
up with some kind of balance, unfortunately given what is going on in the
Jewish world I am not optimistic.
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