Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 85

Fri, 06 Jul 2012

• 1. The Main Idea of Judaism (hankman)
• 2. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Doron Beckerman)
• 5. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (hankman)
• 8. Re: taamei ha mitzvot...what is there mesorah?? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: responders??? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Doron Beckerman)
• 11. Re: yeihareig val yaavor (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (hankman)
• 14. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: The Main Idea of Judaism (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: yeihareig val yaavor (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Zev Sero)
• 18. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Doron Beckerman)

I think the answer is trivially simple! It is to do the rotzon of HKB?H at
all times to the best of your ability. All the rest is detail and that is
far from trivial.

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120705/b7e38a49/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 02:03:45PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: I think the answer is trivially simple! It is to do the rotzon of
: HKB"H at all times to the best of your ability. All the rest is detail
: and that is far from trivial.

I thought the whole question was "What one theme is central to His Ratzon
for what we should be accomplishing in life?"

R' Simlai (Makos 23b-24a) boils it down from 613 to 11 to 6 to 3 to 2 to
"Tzadiq be'emunaso yichyeh." The three tannaim I already named make it
more about BALC. (And your phrasing about essence and non-trivial detail
resembles Hillel's "ve'idakh peirushah, zil gemor!") Vekhulu.

Of more interest to me is how various members of the chevrah go about
identifying the/a central theme(s). After all, we're talking about
humans identifying Divine Will -- there will be no One True Answer. Just
many models, simplifactions whittled down to fit in our own puny minds.
And each mind being different, this means multiple derakhim, each pursuing
its own way of looking at the central problem -- "al pi darko".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I had written
>> Well, that's why a melekh only becomes one after being properly
>> appointed by a navi and Sanhedrin. Barring that, he is no melekh. Man
>> malkheio, rabbanon can only work for those who accept that rav's
>> authority, so indeed, the kind of king you make a rebbe into is one of
>> rather limited authority.

RSZ replied:
> It does not, however, exclude anyone who disobeys.

Well, by definition, someone who disobays intentionally is also not
accepting the regularting authority. Furthermore, as R' Micha pointed
out, this will very much play itself outside the confines of TAY
chassidim.

In fact, one primary group that will surely be targeted will b e
yidden who want to leave TAY and become Litvaks or non Yerushalmi,
non-Satmar-orbit Chassidim. Or social adherents who come to tish but
do not accept the strictures of teh community (i.e. American
chassidim).

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Toleranz aber ohne Respekt ? zwei Artikel zur Brit Mil?
* Ein Volk, eine Gemeinde ? R?ckblick auf dem Freitagabend-Anlass
* Die Beschneidung ist im Judentum unentbehrlich
* Joe the Pumber, Guns Control and the Lethal Oppression of the Masses
* Offene Brief an die Redaktion von ?Die Zeit?
* Alle sind gleich vor dem Schabbat, dem hochmodernen Ruhetag
* Thoughts on a Polarizing Society
* Do we Owe Respect to Old Bones?

Along the lines of what RCM said, it is to make Will of Hashem the be all
and end all of one's existence.  Essentially, it is to transform one's own
Ratzon. Rav Wolbe (Alei Shur I:120) says that the entirety of our Avodah is
to transform one's Ratzon to be a "Ba Litaher." A person achieves in life
whatever, in the deepest parts of himself, he really wants.

Ultimately, that is what "Tzaddik BeEmunaso *Yichyeh*" means. It does not
merely mean that one needs to acquire a certain set of beliefs. It means
that one needs to live by those beliefs. RSRH to Bereshis 15 states that
Emunah is "Ikkar Hayahadus." But he bolds and underscores that it doesn't
mean to believe in Hashem, it means to live by one's belief in Hashem, and
to be putty in Hashem's hands.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120705/65091765/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 10:07:52PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: Along the lines of what RCM said, it is to make Will of Hashem the be all
: and end all of one's existence.  Essentially, it is to transform one's own
: Ratzon....

And I think both answers suffer from what must have been a lack of clarity
in my question.

Saying that the main idea of Judaism it do Hashem's Will is just a very
minor shift of my intended question. What I am trying to get at it:

1- Tell me how you view Hashem's goal for a human, so that one can plan
how to conform to His Will for them?
2- What I find more interesting, because #1 has SO MANY valid answers,
all of which are necessarily incomplete, how would you reach an answer
to #1?

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 10:07:52PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
:         Rav Wolbe (Alei Shur I:120) says that the entirety of our Avodah is
: to transform one's Ratzon to be a "Ba Litaher." A person achieves in life
: whatever, in the deepest parts of himself, he really wants.
: 
: Ultimately, that is what "Tzaddik BeEmunaso *Yichyeh*" means. It does not
: merely mean that one needs to acquire a certain set of beliefs...

By quoting RSW you do narrow the range of possible answers to the first
question, because you're framing it in terms of tohar haleiv and thus
(broadly speaking) sheleimus.

And you also narrow it by excluding belief as an end in itself.

But you don't actually answer the questions I meant to ask.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

Similarly (?) the Sfat Emet says repeatedly that one has to batel 
himself to Hashem or to the Am or to the Torah.

Ben
On 7/5/2012 10:07 PM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
>  But he bolds and underscores that it doesn't mean to believe in 
> Hashem, it means to live by one's belief in Hashem, and to be putty in 
> Hashem's hands.
>

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 02:03:45PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: I think the answer is trivially simple! It is to do the rotzon of
: HKB"H at all times to the best of your ability. All the rest is detail
: and that is far from trivial.

RMB responded:
> I thought the whole question was "What one theme is central to His Ratzon
> for what we should be accomplishing in life?"

CM tries again:
I think that what I expressed comes very close to shivisi H' lenegdi
tamid.

I guess for for another try I will go back to basic notions from the
sefer Derech H' So, the purpose of the bria is so HKB'H can be maitiv
lezuloso. This is structured so that we can "earn" our hatava by tikun
olam (not sure who originated this phrase) and of ourselves. The details
of the tikun ("earning" our keep) are those laid out in the many details
of the commands of the Torah.

 From my point of view, this last paragraph just fleshed out (slightly)
what the rotzon of HKB'H was in my first response. Of course this has
more layers than an onion if you wish to flesh it out even more.

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 11:37:31AM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: How are we (mere humans) to come up with the Taamei Hamitzvot unless
: there is a valid mesorah as to such???

In general, things are pretty loose with aggadita. We have halakhos that
confine exploration in the sense that some answers will cause others to
consider your wine non-kosher and the other halachic reprecussions of
apiqursus, meenus and kefirah. But beyond that... there are no rules of
"pesaq" WRT aggadita.

: HB (eg, dont argue with rishonim??)

Again, enlarging the question to aggadita in general: We do all the time.
No rishon mentions the Ari's Qabbalah. None speaks of hashgachah peratis
on events that do not impact people. Etc, etc, etc...

Anything that explains and adds meaning to the mitzvos (including chovos
halvavos, as per above) would apparently be valid.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 01:35:14PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: (responders?? i don't know what exactly that means???) didn't rivka...

Aside from the error in your example, my terseness caused a general
conceptual error.

The imahos as symbols represent how we respond to HQBH when He "takes
the first step". Is'arusa deIla'a is always felt fourfold, because we
can sense that there is more going on than our usual threefold selves.

But I meant the symbology, not the individuals. It's like saying that
Avraham represents chessed. That doesn't rule out his doing things for
other motives, even things recorded in the Torah, that don't fit his
overall symbology -- at least not in any simple way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I'm still not 100% sure I understand what you are getting at, since what
Hashem wants from people, broadly, is to transform their will to His Will.
He has many things He wants us to accomplish, and the goal is for us to
want to accomplish them all.

If you want something more specific, I would go with Rav Wolbe's concept of
Sulamos - ladders of growth, and whatever stands at the pinnacle of the
ladder constitutes what Hashem wants of you.

The thing is, though, that as you say, there are many valid answers to
that question. Many different sources have different ladders. And the
reason is because of what the GRA says on Mishlei 16:1-4. Everyone has
their own path they need to take in life. It used to be that the Neviim
would tell you what it was, then it was Ruach Hakodesh, and now it is only
through completely unbiased self-awareness. Which is, for purpose of our
discussion, non-existent today.

And, thus, the GRA there circles back to this: "Nowadays we should not go
with grand and phenomenal ideas (Gedolos Veniflaos). We must only
ascertain  that our actions should be unto Hashem, meaning, in accordance
with His Will... and via fulfillment of those actions themselves, i.e.
fulfilling Mitzvos Asei and avoiding Lo Saaseis, *they* will make your
thoughts in consonance (with the truth), for  "Kol Po'al Hashem
Lema'anehu," meaning, the primary Will of Hashem is the Torah and the
Mitzvos."

In other words, in theory, the place to look for the answer to that
question is *within oneself.* [Which, by the way, is where one needs to
look to properly understand Aggadeta.] But since we cannot really be sure
that we are free of biases, we must resort to Torah and Mitzvos driven by
an unbridled will to do nothing but the Will of Hashem, and that will bring
about, to the extent possible, a person reaching the pinnacle of his own
ladder.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120705/2f16d63d/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 12:48:36AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> No more than for other aveiros.  "Yehareg ve'al ya'avor" doesn't make
> an avera more severe; chilul shabbos (issur skila) is a worse aveirah
> than murder (issur hereg) let alone nidah (issur kares), let alone mere
> avizrayhu that get makos mardus, but they are all YVY and shabbos is not.

Chazal do use magnitude of onesh to establish a qal vachomer, but
not qv"ch stands up to a single rei'usa. Thus, the 3 YVY applying in
situations where Shabbos would be considered oneis Rachmanah patrei
would be enough to break the qv"ch you are suggesting.

There is a bigger problem with it, IMHO. Murder requires kaparah from
two sources -- both HQBH and the victims (plural to include almanah,
yesomim, etc...) Saying the onesh is smaller only means the BALM aspect
is smaller, not that the aveirah as a whole is. Unless you can find an
example where Chazal assess the chumerah of a mitzvah BALC based on its
onesh, I wouldn't take that as a given.

Third, one of the 3 YVY is AZ. A mechalel Shabbos befarhesia is ke'ilu
oveid AZ, implying it's more qal. But AZ is also an issur kareis.

I refer back to Avos 2:1, and lefum tza'arah agra -- both of which
make it impossible to apply a kelal in derashah for deriving halakhos
to the aggadic question of which is more significant.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 10:02:35AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: Let's get some clarity here. There are a few issues at hand:
: a) Drafting Talmidei Chachamim to the army when not in active war.
: b) Are they miraculously immune to harm in the event of attack.
: c) Talmidei Chachamim fighting in active battle.
...

(a) and (b) aren't entirely separable, which is how (b) came up in
discussion.

No one claimed (b) in the absolute terms you are putting it. Just that
the gemara says their risk of being victims of theft is so much smaller,
they don't need to pay their share toward the police force. Aside from
questions from experience, which is its own can of worms...

If the same is true of war, and I argued it isn't, then one could argue
that a talmid chakham doesn't have the same obligation to contribute to
the country's defense. One doesn't need absolute miraculous safety for
that.

...
: Regarding Talmidei Chachamim during *active war.* Here, Bava Basra 8 is
: inapplicable. But Shevet Levi status is. Makos 10 - "Omdos Hayu Ragleinu"
: is. Assa being punished for Angarya BeTalmidei Chachamim is. Is there value
: in Talmidei Chachamim *during war* learning to provide merit? Does it
: provide protection and help the soldiers? Yes. Are they immune - no. Not
: any more than any soldier is.

And the precedents of Yehoshua, the Shofetim, Shaul, David haMelekh, and
R' Aqiva -- including avos of their respective Batei Din haGadol -- are
also relevent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

It just occurs to me to add to what I posted previously and reproduced
below that if the central theme is do Tikun Olom so hatava from HKB'H
can flow to you, the central theme of tikun olam is to emulate HKB'H
(ma hu rachum af ata rachum etc). The tikun olam is not just a means to
"earn" ones keep, but it is also the mechanism that enables the hatava to
flow. The emulation creates a sheychus and allows the relationship to H'
(the flow of hatava) to exist, the greater the emulation (the more G-D
like), the greater the relationship, the greater the hatava.

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
--------------------------------------------------


tamid.

I guess for for another try I will go back to basic notions from the
sefer Derech H'

So, the purpose of the bria is so HKB'H can be maitiv lezuloso. This
is structured so that we can "earn" our hatava by tikun olam (not sure
who originated this phrase) and of ourselves. The details of the tikun
("earning" our keep) are those laid out in the many details of the
commands of the Torah.

 From my point of view, this last paragraph just fleshed out (slightly)
what the rotzon of HKB'H was in my first response. Of course this has
more layers than an onion if you wish to flesh it out even more.

On 5/07/2012 2:33 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I thought the whole question was "What one theme is central to His Ratzon
> for what we should be accomplishing in life?"

But there are many "main ideas", and on different levels.  There are
main ideas on a practical level, and there are main ideas about the
goals.  "Kol yemei chayecha lehavi liymot hamashiach" is certainly true,
and *a* "main idea of Judaism".  Ultimately everything we do should be
with an eye on this goal.  But it doesn't negate intermediate goals,
or other goals that also have solid maamarei chazal behind them.

If you ask "what is the main ingredient in this dish", you can get lots
of different answers, depending on whether you mean by volume, by value,
by nutritional value, by how much it contributes to the taste, etc.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 08:28:56PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 5/07/2012 2:33 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I thought the whole question was "What one theme is central to His Ratzon
>> for what we should be accomplishing in life?"

> But there are many "main ideas", and on different levels.  There are
> main ideas on a practical level, and there are main ideas about the
> goals.  "Kol yemei chayecha lehavi liymot hamashiach" is certainly true,
> and *a* "main idea of Judaism"...

Which is why I said that I thought the question of /how/ one determines
which value is central is more interesting than each person spelling
out a different derekh's answer.

For example, why mashiach more than "Rabbi Chizqiyah beshem Rav: Asid
adam litein din vecheshbon al kol shera'as einav velo akhal"? (Closing
of Y-mi Qiddushin.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

On 5/07/2012 4:17 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> Chazal do use magnitude of onesh to establish a qal vachomer, but
> not qv"ch stands up to a single rei'usa. Thus, the 3 YVY applying in
> situations where Shabbos would be considered oneis Rachmanah patrei
> would be enough to break the qv"ch you are suggesting.

I'm not suggesting a qv"ch, I'm saying that YVY is not a measure of
an aveira's severity.


> There is a bigger problem with it, IMHO. Murder requires kaparah
> from two sources -- both HQBH and the victims (plural to include
> almanah, yesomim, etc...)

Who says this?  Maybe kam leih bid'raba mineih, just like burning
down someone's haystack on Shabbos.


> I refer back to Avos 2:1,

That is about mitzos, not aveiros.  We certainly do know how to rank
aveiros.


>  and lefum tza'arah agra

Again, mitzvos, not aveiros.  There is no "agra" for aveiros.


> -- both of which
> make it impossible to apply a kelal in derashah for deriving halakhos
> to the aggadic question of which is more significant.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 5/07/2012 4:22 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> And the precedents of Yehoshua, the Shofetim, Shaul, David haMelekh, and
> R' Aqiva -- including avos of their respective Batei Din haGadol -- are
> also relevent.

David Hamelech, at least, didn't go to war -- he sent Yoav while he
learned Torah.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

 >> (a) and (b) aren't entirely separable... Nobody claimed (b) in the
absolute terms you are putting it <<

I disagree, in the terms that I put it. Which people here *did* claim, or
at least imply, by asking why Yeshiva boys run away when rockets are
raining down on their Dalet Amos. The equivalent of this by theft is a
thief walking into the house of a Talmid Chacham and the TC saying - ha,
ha, you can't steal from me, I'm a Talmid Chacham!

>> If the same is true of war, and I argued it isn't <<

See the Tzitz Eliezer I cited. L'maaseh, it is.

>> And the precedents of Yehoshua <<

Kibbush HaAretz needed to be done davka Bekoach HaTorah.

>> the Shofetim <<

Who, by and large, were not the greatest Talmidei Chachamim of their times.

>> Shaul <<

Hashem explicitly appointed him as the best there was.

>> David haMelekh <<

See Rashi Sanhedrin 49a - "Ilmalei David Shehayah Osek BaTorah, Lo Asah
Yoav Milchamah, Aval Zechuso Shel David Omedes Lo LeYoav BeMilchamosav Shel
David."

>> R' Aqiva -- including avos of their respective Batei Din haGadol -- are
also relevent. <<

Sources?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120706/d2cc97ee/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 85
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."