Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 81

Tue, 03 Jul 2012

• 1. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Doron Beckerman)
• 3. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Rich, Joel)
• 4. are we more in denial? (Harvey Benton)
• 5. Re: are we more in denial? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone? (T613K@aol.com)
• 8. Re: confiscating property [was: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone] (T613K@aol.com)
• 9. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Avodah] Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: confiscating property [was: Mechallel Shabbos to destroy a non-kosher phone] (Saul Guberman)
• 16. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Rich, Joel)

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> the Rebbe was clear that phones may be confiscated and
> destroyed, and there is no obligation to compensate the owner.

R"n Chana Luntz asked:
> On what halachic basis? (Or is the claim that Rebbes are above
> the halacha)?

And RZS asnwered:

> Because they have no right to have it in the first place.
> Uvi'arta hara mikirbecha. If you see a Jew eating treif, do
> you not have the right and obligation to take it from them
> and destroy it?

I do not know the answer to that question. But for the sake of argument,
let's say that I do have an obligation to take and destroy a pork chop that
I see a Jew eating. Let's say, again for the sake of argument, that I must
even take and destroy an issur d'rabanan, such as a chicken parmagiana,
that I see him eating.

But this is not that case. This is a case where I see him eating some Chalav Hacompanies. I do not see where the question even begins.

Even if one posek, or even several, or even many - or even most! - poskim
say not to use a certain item, but others allow it, then from where does
one get this supposed right (and obligation!!!) to take it from him?

RZS tries to answer:

> We are, after all, talking not about random people deciding to
> do this on their own, but about a specific instruction from
> the TAY Rebbe, who certainly has the authority of a beis din.

Who, pray tell, gave Real Semicha to the TAY Rebbe, that he would have the
authority to take someone's property and destroy it? Does he also have the
authority to decide which husbands can be forced to give a get?

RZS offered two citations of sources to support his view:

> :  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/7110.htm#25
> :  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/7102.htm#13

Here's one which I think supports my view: On the subject of whether one
may eat food that was cooked on Shabbos, Rav Shimon Eider (Halachos of
Shabbos, pg 399) writes (emphasis mine):

"Whenever there is a dispute among the poskim whether an act is permissible
or prohibited, even though we may hold like or conduct ourselves according
to the view which prohibits it, b'dieved (...) it is permissible EVEN FOR
THE PERSON HIMSELF on Shabbos."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
5 Diet Pills that Work
2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ff2ebe6ac3966be601d0st52vuc

Rav Moshe was writing to a pair of high school students asking for
guidance, not a psak in Techumin. If you want a fully reasoned psak, I
already linked to RYM Tikuczinky and Rav Arieli,

and you can add Tzitz Eliezer

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20825&;st=&pgnum=81&hilite

Note the quote from R' Tzvi Pesach Frank on page 83 there.

See also Tzitz Eliezer II:25:4 where he proves that the ptur from Shmirah
relates to nefashos as well, contra Rav Melamed (whose column on it simply
failed to deal with the responsa out there).

 R' Chaim David Halevi zt"l, former Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv, also has a
responsum about it in his Asei Lecha Rav, but I can't find it online and
don't have the set at home. so I can't give you a mareh makom. But it is
there.

The concept that the Lomdei Torah run away when they shoot rockets means
that they don't believe that their Torah protects is just silly. When you
daven for soldiers' safety, do you think it pointless? Would you run if the
shul you were in, as you were saying Tehilim for soldiers, was being
bombed? Why?
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Even if one posek, or even several, or even many - or even most! - poskim
say not to use a certain item, but others allow it, then from where does
one get this supposed right (and obligation!!!) to take it from him?

-------------------------------------------
Imho the answer depends on your understanding of eilu v'eilu. If one
believes his way is "right", others are well meaning but "wrong", then he
is doing you a favor by acting "right" in taking it.
KT
Joel Rich

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frumies and denial??
here we have an article that astonishes scientists regarding its scope
and depth, going back to 1898 (earthquackes) and at bottom it describes
plate tectonics and how far back they go........

also recently seen on the news was a piece of pottery found in china
(going back 10-20,000 years.....)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/stunning-map-reveals-worlds
-earthquakes-since-1898-135642955.html
[or http://j.mp/N8oelC -micha]
are we more in denial, then other groups around us? re age of universe/
 
hb

On Sun, Jul 01, 2012 at 02:09:33PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: here we have an article that astonishes scientists regarding its scope
: and depth, going back to 1898 (earthquackes) and at bottom it describes
: plate tectonics and how far back they go...
...
: are we more in denial, then other groups around us? re age of universe/

What "we"? As per the numerous endless threads on the subject we have
had in the past, I am convinced that belief in a young universe was a
minority opinion before R induced a counter-reformation, and in fact only
came under legitimacy attack within my lifetime. (Some time after the
publication of Challenge by R' Aryeh Carmell and R' Cyril Domb [editors]
for AOJS in 1976.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot

On 3/07/2012 8:54 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
> And RZS asnwered:
>> Because they have no right to have it in the first place.
>> Uvi'arta hara mikirbecha. If you see a Jew eating treif, do
>> you not have the right and obligation to take it from them
>> and destroy it?

> I do not know the answer to that question. But for the sake of argument,
> let's say that I do have an obligation to take and destroy a pork chop
> that I see a Jew eating. Let's say, again for the sake of argument,
> that I must even take and destroy an issur d'rabanan, such as a chicken
> parmagiana, that I see him eating.

> But this is not that case. This is a case where I see him eating some
> Chalav Hacompanies. I do not see where the question even begins.

I guarantee you that if a TAY chasid were to be seen eating Chalav
Hacompanies it would be taken from him.

>> We are, after all, talking not about random people deciding to
>> do this on their own, but about a specific instruction from
>> the TAY Rebbe, who certainly has the authority of a beis din.

> Who, pray tell, gave Real Semicha to the TAY Rebbe, that he would have
> the authority to take someone's property and destroy it?

What has Real Semicha (TM) got to do with it?  Does hefker BD not
apply nowadays?!  His authority derives, like anybody else's, from
his chassidim.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

 

From: Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com>

>>  Continuing the discussion from Areivim. The Toldos Avraham Yitzchak  
Rebbe
made a series of statements against non-kosher phones. One of the  things
that he is reported to have said was that if they find a non-kosher  phone
on Shabbos they can be mechallel shabbos to destroy it. He also said  that
the destroyers would not have to pay for the destroyed  phone.<<





>>>>
 
Someone else posted to Areivim that the Rebbe did not say you should  
destroy the phone on Shabbos, he said you can move the phone (even though it's  
muktza -- presumably move it with a shinui) and hide it somewhere, and 
destroy  it after Shabbos.
 
I myself wonder if he really meant what he said literally.  We have a  long 
tradition -- especially in Israel -- of people saying extreme things, very  
heatedly, as a kind of rhetorical flourish, not really expecting to be 
taken  literally.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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From: "Chana Luntz" <Ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk>
>>The  Benei Banim has a series of teshuvos (Shut Bnei Banim Chelek Sheni
siman 47,  48 and 49) regarding the halachic impermissibility of the common
practice in  schools of taking the property of their students (such as
balls and the  like), even if the intention is to return them at the end
of the day or the  end of the term on the grounds that it is stealing
(this is a great one to  raise at a shabbas/yom tov table where you have
a bunch of teachers as guests  - you get howls of outrage about how this
is necessary and essential and a  school cannot run otherwise).  <<
Regards
Chana





>>>>>
 
If the student handbook says that toys, cellphones and so on will be  
confiscated if used improperly during class time, and if there is a page that  
has to be signed by the parents and the child ("I have read the handbook and  
agree to abide by the terms"), then I just don't see what the problem is.   
This is common practice in the elementary and high schools I am familiar 
with --  to have the rules spelled out in writing and signed.  You say the Bnai 
 Banim has a "series" of teshuvos, but I am puzzled as to how much could 
there  possibly be to say!  Maybe if property is confiscated without  
warning.....?  But surely even without written notice, kids know that their  
property is subject to confiscation?  What teacher's desk doesn't have a  drawer 
full of confiscated items to be returned on Friday or on the last day of  
school in June?
 
Actually Bais Yakov of Miami has a box in the office where all the girls  
are required to deposit their cellphones when they arrive in the morning, to 
be  picked up again at the end of the day.  You could ask, why then bring  
cellphones to school at all?  The answer is that many of the older girls  
drive carpool, and a driver needs a cellphone.  A passenger needs a  cellphone 
too, in case the driver is out sick one day  or something.  Probably student 
carpools are not an issue in  Israel.  But anyway, suppose a girl failed to 
leave her phone in the  office?  She KNOWS it will be taken away if she is 
caught with it.  
 

--Toby  Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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On 7/3/2012 1:38 PM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
> The concept that the Lomdei Torah run away when they shoot rockets 
> means that they don't believe that their Torah protects is just silly. 
> When you daven for soldiers' safety, do you think it pointless? Would 
> you run if the shul you were in, as you were saying Tehilim for 
> soldiers, was being bombed? Why?

If someone is claiming he has a patur from the way of the world, I 
expect him to act like it.

I don't believe that praying for health gives me a patur from observing 
some basic rules of health, nor does davening for parnassa relieve me 
from going to work, nor does praying for geula give me a patur from 
working towards it.  Is it pointless to pray? No, but I have no idea 
what happens with my prayers and I don't claim any special privileges 
because I pray.

Ben

On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 11:00:49AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 3/07/2012 8:54 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
>> Who, pray tell, gave Real Semicha to the TAY Rebbe, that he would have
>> the authority to take someone's property and destroy it?

> What has Real Semicha (TM) got to do with it?  Does hefker BD not
> apply nowadays?!  His authority derives, like anybody else's, from
> his chassidim.

I'm not sure why you say a rebbe is a beis din. Yes, they accept his
authority as rebbe. That's different than toanim coming before a court.
I think zaqein ha'ir might be more relevent, who has the power to give
halachic gravitas to the decisions of the tuvei ha'ir -- including on
taxation decisions. But even so, rebbes are usually not the qehillos
posqim. (Of course, exceptions like the SR exist.) You know that better
than I do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 09:14:22AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
: Just an addendum to my post of yesterday, I would just point out, on a more
: philosophical note, that this idea of "Is one person's learning of a shverer
: ketzos more valuable than another person's learning of Chumash?" is what
: might be described as the communist strand of Jewish thinking - ie, the
: lowly factory worker's contribution is just as great, and needs to be
: treated as just as great, as that of the factory boss...

I don't think the comparison holds.

Generating wealth is a matter of accomplishment.

The avodah is transcendence, not accomplishment. Lefum tza'arah agra.
The goal of life isn't where the person gets to, but how far he's moved.

Or IOW, "more valuable" has different answers in a judgment that involves
more than one dimension.

This is why I wanted to distinguish between how much HQBH values someone's
learning with our obligation of kibud TC. The latter could well be about
accomplishment. Particularly if we are honoring the Torah the person
knows and what they became a symbol of more than their own worth.

Besides, HQBH might know worth, but we can't anyway. One person might work
harder to get to the same knowledge of a Qetzos or a Rashi on Chumash. And
one person might work harder to sit in front of a seifer for 10 min than
another to sit for 10 hours. We can't know others' abilities and what
is going on in their heads. Assessing based on effort is impossible,
even if we really were called to honor based on it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 02:14:05AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> The definition of Torah lishmah is that there is no "output"...

This is what it says in Nefesh haChaim cheileq 4. (Although I doubt
that's your source, at least not directly.) But it's the opposite of the
conclusion reached by the Meshekh Chokhmah and R' Shimon Shkop, who say
"lishmah" is al menas la'asos or al menas lelameid. (Which is also what
makes Torah greater than the maaseh.) As posted in the past.

Pretty compelling is the MC's argument -- we can learn better without
being born. Which does fit the gemara Berakhos, which says those who are
mechadeish chidushei Torah shelo lishmah are better off not being born.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 3/07/2012 2:35 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 11:00:49AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 3/07/2012 8:54 AM, Akiva Miller wrote:
>>> Who, pray tell, gave Real Semicha to the TAY Rebbe, that he would have
>>> the authority to take someone's property and destroy it?
>
>> What has Real Semicha (TM) got to do with it?  Does hefker BD not
>> apply nowadays?!  His authority derives, like anybody else's, from
>> his chassidim.
>
> I'm not sure why you say a rebbe is a beis din. Yes, they accept his
> authority as rebbe. That's different than toanim coming before a court.
> I think zaqein ha'ir might be more relevent, who has the power to give
> halachic gravitas to the decisions of the tuvei ha'ir -- including on
> taxation decisions. But even so, rebbes are usually not the qehillos
> posqim. (Of course, exceptions like the SR exist.) You know that better
> than I do.

This has nothing to do with psak halacha.  Smicha is irrelevant.
His authority as rebbe is precisely what is at issue, and what gives
him the right to issue such an edict.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 02:44:15PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> I'm not sure why you say a rebbe is a beis din. Yes, they accept his
>> authority as rebbe. That's different than toanim coming before a court.
...
> This has nothing to do with psak halacha.  Smicha is irrelevant.
> His authority as rebbe is precisely what is at issue, and what gives
> him the right to issue such an edict.

I don't see how this addresses my question. Accepting someone as one's
rebbe is different than walking into their court.

And, thinking about it, I don't know of a use of hefqeir BD outside
of musmachim. Even down to the problems charging kenasos bizman hazeh,
which would be a non-issue if hedyotos can simply redistribute wealth.
Hefqeir BD comes up in taqanos (EhE alot). It comes up in one-off kenasos.
And it might be related to the power of city adminitration (which I raised
in my prior post). But ad hoc today?

Your thesis boils down to giving any mentor the power to take money from
Reuvein and give it to Shim'on. They didn't walk into a BD agreeing to
accept their decision. I don't find that plausible.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 11:20 AM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

> **
>  but I am puzzled as to how much could there possibly be to say!
>
> *--Toby Katz
> ===========*
>

SHUT 47 starts on page 189.  SHUT 49 ends on page 200.  He has plenty to
say with many sources.  Take a look starting at the link below.

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20022&;st=&pgnum=189
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> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 09:14:22AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote: 
>> Just an addendum to my post of yesterday, I would just point out, on a more 
>> philosophical note, that this idea of "Is one person's learning of a shverer 
>> ketzos more valuable than another person's learning of Chumash?" is what 
>> might be described as the communist strand of Jewish thinking -- ie, the 
>> lowly factory worker's contribution is just as great, and needs to be 
>> treated as just as great, as that of the factory boss... 

[Micha:]
> I don't think the comparison holds. 

> Generating wealth is a matter of accomplishment. 

I usually answer this with the following: 

Imagine a parent had twins who he sent out on their own missions --
the first he gave $1000 and told him to invest it as best he could
and return it with the investment income in a year, the second he gave
$1,000,000 and gave him the same charge. In a year the first came back
with investment income of $1000 and the second with $100,000. Objectively
to the outsider looking at the check with the investment income, the
first only had investment income of $1000 and the second did much better
with $100,000. The wise father would realize however that the first had
ROI of 100% while the second had ROI of only 10%. Hameivin Yavin.

KT 
Joel Rich 


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