Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 74

Tue, 26 Jun 2012

• 1. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: length of pregnancy (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: length of pregnancy (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Translation of Makkos (Zvi Lampel)
• 5. Re: Kivrey Avos (T6...@aol.com)
• 6. Who is a talmid chacham--according to WebShas (Michael Feldstein)
• 7. Re: who is a talmid chacham (Zev Sero)
• 8. Definition of Talmid Chacham (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 9. Re: Kivrey Avos (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Drops of wine (Simon Montagu)
• 11. Re: length of pregnancy (menucha)
• 12. Re: Kivrey Avos (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Who is a Talmid Chacham (Meir Rabi)
• 14. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Doron Beckerman)
• 15. Re: Definition of Talmid Chacham (Ben Waxman)
• 16. Re: Who is a Talmid Chacham (Micha Berger)

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 03:24:18PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> What other criterion could there be?  Is one person's learning of a
> shverer ketzos more valuable than another person's learning of chumash,
> if that's what he's up to?  By what standard?

It seems to me that the gemara can't share this definition.

Eg Shabbos 11a quotes a beraisa that says that Chaveirim have to stop
learning to lein Q"Sh, in contrast to the mishnah there. R' Yochanan
explains the mishnah refers to Rashbi veChaveirav, who are patur from
QS -- shetorasan umenasan. But this isn't true of most of Chazal, as R'
Yochanan continues, "aval anu"! And yet chazal are called talmidei
chakhamim. (By the Bavli. The Y-mi is more literal: chakhamim are
chakhamim; talmidei chakhamim are their students. I am guessing this has
to do with the lack of true semichah in Bavel, so that no one actually
graduates. But I'm just guessing.)

Along these lines, RHS limits the concept of toraso umenaso as a petur to
those people who wouldn't stop learning to take care of their own bills.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 06:08:46PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: In a recent daf yomi (Nidah 38a) Rav Yehuda claims that birth occurs after
: rosh chodesh of the 9th month.
: Shmuel disagrees and says that a birth can occur only after 271,272 or 273
: days.
: 
: Any explanations of either shitah?...

The following would be of no help, but you reminded me...

On today's daf, Y-mi Yevamos 2:4 (vilna 24a-b), it learns from the time
delay required between petirah and yibum a list of things, among them
"sheha'ishah yolefes lachadashim mequta'im" -- it doesn't have to be a
whole (integer) number of months. (Also that pregnant women can't get
pregnant again, and that one baby can't be conceived via two fathers.)

Also, the Y-mi (24b) distinguishes between a 7 month term fetus that is
born late in the 8th month, and a 9 month term fetus born a month early.
    Notzar le7 venolad lishmonah, chayei.
    Kol shekein letish'ah.
    Notzar letish'ah venolad lishmonah, einu chayei...

And where to we know that there are two kinds of yestziros? R' Ze'ira
(a/ka/ R' Zeira) besheim R' Huna, from "vayiytzer" (BVereishis 12) --
a yud for each sort of gestation.

Anyway, it would seem to be implied by this Y-mi (as it is from modern
medicine) that you would be mechalal shabbos for an 8th month fetus,
because maybe it's a 7-monther being born late.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you won't be better tomorrow
mi...@aishdas.org        than you were today,
http://www.aishdas.org   then what need do you have for tomorrow?
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

 

From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>

In a recent daf  yomi (Nidah 38a) Rav Yehuda claims that birth occurs after
rosh chodesh of  the 9th month.

Shmuel disagrees and says that a birth can occur only after  271,272 or 273
days.

Any explanations of either shitah? ie how does  bet din declaring Rosh
Chodesh affect the woman (presumably only Jewish  women)
and how Shmuel can say there are no early or late deliveries

--  
Eli Turkel

 
>>>>
 
Even though Shmuel says "only" that is gemara-speak for "most of the time"  
or "when everything is normal."  
 
Bais din "declaring" Rosh Chodesh is only of the slightest relevance,  
because they are always going to declare it within a day or two of the actual  
new moon.
 
 
Google says a lot of people believe that if they are close to term, women  
are more likely to go into labor when there is a /full/ moon. However Google 
 also says that scientific studies fail to prove this. I believe that the 
same  number of children are born every day of the year, the only significant 
uptick  being nine months after a major power failure.

 

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good values, good family, good  hair


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I was unaware of this discussion until now.
  RMB:
> 2- Why didn't RDF correct the translator, neither initially nor before
> subsequent printings? And that's assuming the translation was ghost-work;
> RDF's name alone is on the English version. (Which even if it wasn't by his own hand, would push to more meticulous proofreading.)
>
>> LL: ...  I imagine
>> RDF considers the Hebrew the primary text and that the English
>> translation isn't even on his radar.
>>
I also don't think scrutiny of my translation of ''makkos,''or its 
hashkafic ramifications, was on anyone's radar, although at the time I 
did think it was a reference to sorrow over loss of life. But although, 
as wiith most translations, the translator's name does not appear on the 
book's cover or front page, I was indeed acknowledged in the 
Acknowledgements, as well as were others who edited my translation, and 
Rav Dovid did review it.

This reminds me of when I was once teaching a class in Breur's Seminary, 
and the class got into a heated argument of what I meant by somethiing I 
said. I was standing there trying to calm them down and pleading with 
them that I was right there and to please let me explain what I meant, 
but they would not be cooperative. As Lisa mentioned before, someone 
really should ask the mechaber himself what he meant. And it seems I 
should be that someone. Bli nedder, I'll try to get clarity on this.

Zvi Lampel

 

From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>

>> See  tosfot sotah 34b D"H avotai  as well as michtav meliyahu -yamim 
noraim  where he posits those of high ruchanit stature know nothing of this 
world once  they leave it. <<
KT
Joel Rich





>>>>>
 
How does that square with "kol beramah nishma, Rochel mevaka al  baneha"?
 
 
 

--Toby  Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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http://www.webshas.org/torah/chacham.htm

-- 
Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT
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On 25/06/2012 4:32 PM, Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
>> Anyone who is genuinely toraso umnuso (TU) is a TCh.

> Is there any source that says this? If there is, could you please give
> us the citation and the words that actually support this assertion. Or
> perhaps you can give us such support for the definition of Talmid
> Chacham. AIUI, you are equating TU with TCh. Perhaps that is so but
perhaps they are two different concepts.

Are they different concepts?  Where do you get that?


>> And I don't see what basis you could have for denying that
>> such a person is a TCh.

> You are making that comparison so you really have the burden of showing
> it's a correct equation. If it's simply your sevara (to which you are,
> of course, entitled), please say so; if the gemarah (which you refer to
> generally) or someone else has made this equation please say so and give
> us the details. Thanks.

No, you're the one imposing some unspecified other criterion, without
providing a basis.  Just look at the term; doesn't it speak for itself?



On 25/06/2012 4:55 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> Eg Shabbos 11a quotes a beraisa that says that Chaveirim have to stop
> learning to lein Q"Sh, in contrast to the mishnah there. R' Yochanan
> explains the mishnah refers to Rashbi veChaveirav, who are patur from
> QS -- shetorasan umenasan.

Umenuson.

> But this isn't true of most of Chazal, as R' Yochanan continues, "aval
> anu"!

Was R Yochanan a full-time learner, or did he have another umnus?
I don't know.

> And yet chazal are called talmidei chakhamim.
>
> Along these lines, RHS limits the concept of toraso umenaso as a petur to
> those people who wouldn't stop learning to take care of their own bills.

Does one interrupt ones job to pay bills?


-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

(Moved from Areivim)

"Anyone who is genuinely toraso umnuso (TU) is a TCh."

Is there any source that says this? If there is, could you please give
us the citation and the words that actually support this assertion. Or
perhaps you can give us such support for the definition of Talmid Chacham.
AIUI, you are equating TU with TCh. Perhaps that is so but perhaps they
are two different concepts.

"And I don't see what basis you could have for denying that such a person
is a TCh."

You are making that comparison so you really have the burden of showing
it's a correct equation. If it's simply your sevara (to which you are,
of course, entitled), please say so; if the gemarah (which you refer to
generally) or someone else has made this equation please say so and give
us the details. Thanks.

Joseph

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 05:02:15PM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
:> See  tosfot sotah 34b D"H avotai  as well as michtav meliyahu -yamim 
:> noraim  where he posits those of high ruchanit stature know nothing of this 
:> world once  they leave it.

: How does that square with "kol beramah nishma, Rochel mevaka al  baneha"?

Perhaps Yirmiyahu asking her to daven bridged the gap, and the gemara and
Tosafos are talking about when you don't have nevi'im who can converse on
both planes of reality bridging the gap.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> (This probably came about in exactly the same way that the bundle of
> aravos held during the hoshanos of the last day came to be called a
> "hoshana", the "monos" used for the mitzvah of "mishloach monos" came
> to be called "shalachmonos", the bread from which we take chalah came
> to be called "challah" (or in other places the bread on which we say
> brochos came to be called "barches"), an only child who is expected
> to eventually say kaddish came to be called a "kaddish", the booklet
> from which one reads kinnos came to be called a "kinnah", etc. ?I'm
> sure RSM can supply many more examples, and also a linguistic term for
> this process, and perhaps also a list of other languages in which the
> same process occurs.)

I don't think I'm the RSM you are referring to, but I believe the
linguistic term is "metonymy", and the best source I know for more
about metonymies is James Thurber's "Here Lies Miss Groby", available
at http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1942/03/21/1942_03_21_014_TNY_C
ARDS_000188451
(for New Yorker subscribers) and also at
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2010/01/thurber-
tonight-my-life-and-hard-times_13.html

See Sha"ch YD 189, 13 "kol ma shebeit din lemata osim, beit din lemaala 
maskimim imahem" as an explanation for physical phenomena which are 
affected by the kvia of the calendar.
menucha

>  
>  
>  
> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>  ie how does bet din declaring Rosh
> Chodesh affect the woman (presumably only Jewish women)
> and how Shmuel can say there are no early or late deliveries
>

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>> See tosfot sotah 34b D"H avotai  as well as michtav meliyahu
>> -yamim noraim where he posits those of high ruchanit stature know
>> nothing of this world once they leave it. <<
KT
Joel ich
>>>>

How does that square with "kol beramah nishma, Rochel mevaka al baneha"?

 --Toby Katz
=============

Lulei dmistafina I would say there were differing  opinions in the gemara
on this subject and/or sometimes the medrash was trying to make a point
and/or(tosfotthere) they know through our prayers.
KT
Joel Rich

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from memory, I think the RaMBaM writes LeChaBed YodE'Ha UmeLumDaha, which
suggests those who are actively learning even if they do not know it and
those who know it even though they are not learning it.
May I assume the Mitzvah of honouring is a fair indicator of defining a TC?

-- 

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Regarding army service, anyone learning full time, or even almost full
time.

http://www.he
brewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13429&;hilite=7d9e56c3-9558-4c55-bb4
0-f52a65157dc2&st=%d7%9e%d7%9c%d7%97%d7%9e%d7%aa+%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%95%d7%
94&pgnum=293

[or <http://j.mp/OoSZG4>, this particular essay is by R YM Tikuzcinsky.]

On 6/26/2012 12:12 AM, Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
>> Anyone who is genuinely toraso umnuso (TU) is a TCh.

> Is there any source that says this? If there is, could you please give
> us the citation and the words that actually support this assertion. Or
> perhaps you can give us such support for the definition of Talmid Chacham.
> AIUI, you are equating TU with TCh. Perhaps that is so but perhaps they
> are two different concepts.

The Rambam in Hilchot Talmud Torah brings halachot about the respect 
that one must give to a TC. The Kesef Mishne there brings the machloqet 
between Tanna Qama and Rebbi Yossi over who is a Talmid Chacham. Neither 
person says that it is simply someone who learns.

Ben

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 07:22:55AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: Regarding army service, anyone learning full time, or even almost full
: time.
...

And I added:
: [or <http://j.mp/OoSZG4>, this particular essay is by R YM Tikuczinsky.]

But the need for this post presumes people did not recall RDB's May 22nd
post, where he pointed to the beginning of the same essay. So I'll repeat
the rest of it here in case someone is more motivated to chase his links
(or <gasp> open physical paper sefarim!) than they were last month:

> And Harav Yitzcak Arieli of Merkaz Harav in Einayim Lamishpat to Bava Basra 7b
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14862&;st=&pgnum=29
  
> Either way, Rav Moshe held that Yeshiva students are absolved from army
> service in Israel. See IM Yoreh Deah IV:33.
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&;st=&pgnum=263

> See also Igrot Haraayah 85
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43827&;st=&pgnum=261

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning


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