Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 73

Mon, 25 Jun 2012

• 1. Re: Translation of Makos (Doron Beckerman)
• 2. Re: Translation of Makos (Lisa Liel)
• 3. Re: Translation of Makos (Micha Berger)
• 4. Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver? (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Kivrey Avos (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Translation of Makos (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Drops of wine - also the Ten Curtain Calls (David Wacholder)
• 9. Re: Kivrey Avos (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver? (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver? (Liron Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: Drops of wine (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 13. Re: Kivrey Avos (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: Cheder Study, Knowledge of Torah, and the Maintenance of Social Stratification (Micha Berger)
• 15. length of pregnancy (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Re: Drops of wine (Lisa Liel)
• 17. Who is a Talmid Chacham (Zev Sero)

Zev is absolutely correct. As a support source, see Derech Emunah by R'
Chaim Kanievsky (Shmittah Veyovel 5:2) in the Tziyyun Hahalachah footnote
19 (The latest Bar-Ilan has this) - "Ain Lishpoch Hamakos Beyain Shevi'is."
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Tiyuvta l'R' Micha, Tiyuvta.

On 6/24/2012 12:28 PM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
>
> Zev is absolutely correct. As a support source, see Derech Emunah by 
> R' Chaim Kanievsky (Shmittah Veyovel 5:2) in the Tziyyun Hahalachah 
> footnote 19 (The latest Bar-Ilan has this) - "Ain Lishpoch Hamakos 
> Beyain Shevi'is."
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
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>    
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On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 04:51:20PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Tiyuvta l'R' Micha, Tiyuvta.

It's not a tiyuvta, it's a teirutz to one thing I thought was a stretch
among others. Removing an objection isn't the same as creating one. By
probing "makos" /could/ refer to the wine, you didn't prove it doesn't
refer to the makos themselves.

You still don't adress:

1- Why would RDF put the object after the prepositional phrase? That's
weird grammar in both Hebrew and in RDF's first language.

2- Why didn't RDF correct the translator, neither initially nor before
subsequent printings? And that's assuming the translation was ghost-work;
RDF's name alone is on the English version. (Which even if it wasn't by
his own hand, would push to more meticulous proofreading.)

3- Since Zev is willing to concede that numerous baalei mesorah do
apply "binfol oyivkha" to Half Hallel on the 7th day of Pesach, he
has no theological problem with applying it here. So why do we need to
stretch the rules of grammar and to believe the author's or authorized
translation erred?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. 
mi...@aishdas.org        "I want to do it." - is weak. 
http://www.aishdas.org   "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

At 05:29 PM 6/24/2012, Zev Sero wrote:

>On 24/06/2012 10:19 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > Please see the ad that appeared in this week's Flatbush Jewish 
> Journal at 
> http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/shaver_lakewood.pdf  or 
> http://www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_172527
>
>The Star-K has been giving hechsherim on shavers for decades.  I don't
>see anything new in this ad, just a reminder for those who seem to think
>the mere involvement of electricity conveys a heter.

Which shavers does the Star-K give a hechsher on?  No specific 
shavers are mentioned at 
http://www.star-k.com/kashrus/kk-mitzvos-shavers.htm  I searched the 
Star-K web site for information about electric shavers and only this 
article came up.

YL
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I had a chavrusah with a R' Breuer's grandson, and got from him what his
grandfather told him when he started shaving.

I mention this every iterations.

There are two approaches to understanding why one can cut one's beard
with shavers, which impacts the comparison between electric shavers
and scissors.

1- The issur is a gezeiras hakasuv that simply doesn't include two-blade
action. 

If so, all rotary razors are mutar, as their blades can't cut anything
without the screen. It really is two current surfaces. RYB did not believe
this was true of most straight shavers, where the screen is more literally
a screen -- just protects the face from getting cut up.

2- The issur relates to how close one cuts the hair, and two-blade
cutting means that one can't be cutting closer than the width of the
nearer blade.

In which case, straight shavers would be mutar, but rotaries that have
a lift-and-cut or other tricks to pull the hair so that it is cut at a
level that is usually very close or below skin level would not.

RYF told his grandson to avoid the machloqes by using a rotary without
such tricks.

Norelco/Phillips doesn't make any anymore, but Remington does as do
many non-name-brand models. And if you do have a Norelco, it isn't that
hard to snap off the "lifters". I also wonder if you couldn't find cheap
repacement blades (eBay?) not made by Norelco that lack the gimick.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On 21/06/2012 3:42 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> [1] What  about the idea that those who have passed away come back and
> go to the  simchas of their relatives and descendants?  They must know
> about  the weddings at least!  Or do you have to explicitly invite them
> if  you want them to come?

From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
: The  common minhag is to go to the graves and invite them....

But that invitation is also happening in olam hazeh. The problem of
whether meisim following the goings on down here isn't changed by
this minhag. (Which might be common, but didn't hit my neck of
the woods.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 6/24/2012 6:43 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 04:51:20PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>    
>> Tiyuvta l'R' Micha, Tiyuvta.
>>      
> It's not a tiyuvta, it's a teirutz to one thing I thought was a stretch
> among others. Removing an objection isn't the same as creating one. By
> probing "makos" /could/ refer to the wine, you didn't prove it doesn't
> refer to the makos themselves.
>
> You still don't adress:
>
> 1- Why would RDF put the object after the prepositional phrase? That's
> weird grammar in both Hebrew and in RDF's first language.
>    
Again, no it's not.

Asher lo nasa la-shav nafsi (Tehillim 24)
Shofchim l'ibud ha-makot.

(1) Verb, (2) prepositional phrase modifying the verb, (3) object.  
Easy-peasy, and a natural way of speaking.  Granted, in English, we'd 
say, "I set it up" and not "I set up it", but that's English.

Shofchim l'ibud ha-makkot, v'lo shotim otam.  We spill away the makkot 
and don't drink them.  It's fairly pashut.
> 2- Why didn't RDF correct the translator, neither initially nor before
> subsequent printings? And that's assuming the translation was ghost-work;
> RDF's name alone is on the English version. (Which even if it wasn't by
> his own hand, would push to more meticulous proofreading.)
>    
According to R' Akiva Miller, the translator was R' Zvi Lampel, who 
posted here, on this list, that he didn't ask RDF about it.  I imagine 
RDF considers the Hebrew the primary text and that the English 
translation isn't even on his radar.

> 3- Since Zev is willing to concede that numerous baalei mesorah do
> apply "binfol oyivkha" to Half Hallel on the 7th day of Pesach, he
> has no theological problem with applying it here. So why do we need to
> stretch the rules of grammar and to believe the author's or authorized
> translation erred?
>
>    
I didn't see R' Zev concede that.  Suppose you cite one of them in 
full.  And please, no Achronim.  With all due respect, they simply don't 
have the authority to argue with the Gemara.  Neither do Rishonim, for 
that matter.  There is no stretching of the rules of grammar here.  On 
the contrary, the rules of grammar are very clear that the line says 
nothing whatsoever about losses due to the makkot.

Lisa

Lisa

   1. I hope this will clarify - or for the first time - express my
   thoughts.
   2. Generally I am recently weighing the assertions in David Birnbaum's
   "Crucifixion of the Jews Volume II "  irony intended by Birnbaum. Birnbaum
    asserts that the roots and basic tenets of Christianity were never
   intended to be a coherent belief system of any sort. Rather there was a
   fully intentional and well designed slander campaignagainst the most
   defensleless available victim.
   3. Quite intentionally, the murderous Pontius Pilate and his Roman
   backers  were fully exculpated and portrayed as  merciful Peacenicks,
   opponents of  Capital Punishment..All blame was passed to the entirely
   powerless Jews - just then being crucified by the thousands - were
    portrayed as the murderers of The God-Man, etc.
   4. Anti Semitism of Christianity was a conscious slander campaign
   against a weakling Philosopher-Nation, whom the Romans were seeking to
   destroy.
   5. Greek speaking power-grabbers in Antioch., far from Israel in every
   way, - concocted self-contradictory layers of hatred-incitement against
   Jews. It is a sort of religious Hate Bomb with intricate parts. He claims
   the hostility  was novel and concocted only then.
   6. As only some of the pieces were known to me, I am still trying to
   comprehend his approach.
   7. ===
   8. The debate  was regarding the proper way the Ideal Jew should look at
   the suffering inflicted on the Mitzriyiim Egyptians of that time. All
   possible points of view were expressed far better than this writer, and it
   was fitting for me to say nothing.
   9. Certainly I see no philosophical problem in the Ten Makkos - the
   Divine Wheels were turning to create a Reset in the hashkafa of the World
   Powers - that Hashem's Strong hand is here to stay, involved in the World.
   Krias Yam Suf would be an Exclamation Point of that theme. There was
   sufficient lead time for the Almighty to make sure that each individual
   charioteer and even the horses - had reached critical mass of Death That
   Day.  [compare - Ki lo shalem avon ha'Emori ad Heina]. That is only an
   obstacle - Red Ink on the balance sheet, which hashem took care of somehow.
   10. The main crux of the exercise - was to commit hashem to involvement
   in the Jewish People. Avraham came to hashem and made a partnership with
   him for Kidush hashem. That was - so to speak - initiated and perhaps
   credited to Avraham Ohavi.
   11. Based on Machzor Vitri end of Shabbos Piyutim - Pitron Nishmas -
   Hashem newly gave up his absentee landlord approach, and suddenly became
   vitally interested in each and every Jew getting visible and immmediate
   justice. Not that Par'oh was so many quantum levels more evil than his
   competition in surrounding countreis. Rather - he had oppressed Hashem's
   beloved and devoted People. His Rachamim - looking at the end result of
   Yaavdun Oti rather than their present "slumber" - was as unilateral as a
   mother bearing a child and bringing it up.
   12. as this was Priority - Ani v'lo Mal'ach - it was done completely by
   Hashem.
   13. indeed for us to pour out wine - smacks of Epikorsus and lack of
   trust on our part.  It would be indefensible according to these Mefarshim.
   14. If so - Why pour off wine?
   15. ==
   16. My suggestion based on the well-argued dialogue - Jewish People have
   a full rapport with Hashsem and would not make a public embarrassment of
   his decisions, no matter how minor.
   17.
   18. Rather the message is for us - aimed at those wishing to attribute
   the darkest impulses and motives to us, based on prior assumptions and
   negativity and hostility, as hinted above.
   19. The message is intended to put on record that never have the Jewish
   people been hostile nor have they been murderous
   20. The ultimate goal is that there be no Blood Libel based on
   "identification" with the Idol Worshippers of bygone days.
   21. ==
   22. The last piece in Rashb"a's Chidushim al Hahados - most clearly in
   the Mossad Harav Kook Blue skinny volume  addresses this issue - why
   Yetzias Mitzrayim "is not necessarily" an indictment of his contemporary
   Christian society. .
   23. = In short just like some said not to use white wine rather than
    blood-colored Red  wine - l'hotzi meichashad - just similarly - that is
   the intended result of the poured out and wasted drops of wine. .
   24. Please correct more of my errors - it is infinitely helpful in
   clarifying my thinking. .


Groups viciously attacked the Jewish People as being hostile and
> violent. Since the Seder is in a sense a victory celebration, it is
> important to stress that it is the Victory of Hashem's Glory which we
> are celebrating. We proclaim that our motives are not tainted.

Are you suggesting that hostility and violence are *always* tainted?  If
so, I have to disagree.

Lisa

-- 
David Wacholder
Cell: 917-742-7838
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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On 24/06/2012 8:39 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On 21/06/2012 3:42 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
>> [1] What  about the idea that those who have passed away come back and
>> go to the  simchas of their relatives and descendants?  They must know
>> about  the weddings at least!  Or do you have to explicitly invite them
>> if  you want them to come?
>
> From: Zev Sero<z...@sero.name>
> : The  common minhag is to go to the graves and invite them....
>
> But that invitation is also happening in olam hazeh. The problem of
> whether meisim following the goings on down here isn't changed by
> this minhag.

The machlokes in the gemara whether "meisim yod'im" refers only to what
is happening outside the cemetery.  Lechol hade'os they know what is
happening inside.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

http://www.koshershaver.org/

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

> Please see the ad that appeared in this week's Flatbush Jewish Journal at
> h
> ttp://www.stevens.edu/golem/**llevine/shaver_lakewood.pdf<;http:/
> /www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/shaver_lakewood.pdf> or
> http://www.flipdocs.com/**showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_**172527<;<
> a
> href='http://www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_172527'>http:/
> /www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_172527>
>

This reminds me of a question I've had for a while but haven't had time to
look up. Does anyone know where I would find sources for the following?

Where on the face does this issur apply? If someone is just shaving below
their neck, is there a point at which they could use a real razor?

Kol Tuv,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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R' Zev Sero wrote:

> ... But in that phrase he uses the word "hamakos" in an idiomatic
> way that evidently escaped the translator and RMB.  And yes, it
> is a common idiom to use the word "makkos" to refer to the wine
> that is spilled while listing the (original) makkos.

Well, I can't remember hearing it ever before.

> (This probably came about in exactly the same way that the bundle
> of aravos held during the hoshanos of the last day came to be
> called a "hoshana", the "monos" used for the mitzvah of
> "mishloach monos" came to be called "shalachmonos", the bread
> from which we take chalah came to be called "challah" (or in
> other places the bread on which we say brochos came to be called
> "barches"), an only child who is expected to eventually say
> kaddish came to be called a "kaddish", the booklet from which one
> reads kinnos came to be called a "kinnah", etc.  I'm sure RSM can
> supply many more examples, and also a linguistic term for this
> process, and perhaps also a list of other languages in which the
> same process occurs.)

As much as I'd love to ask you for a citation of "makos" referring to the
wine, it would probably be as fruitless as asking for a citation of where
"shalashudos" refers specifically to the third meal. Thanks very much for
the great examples.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fe8598f7fc7aa7b001st06vuc

The machlokes in the gemara whether "meisim yod'im" refers only to what
is happening outside the cemetery.  Lechol hade'os they know what is
happening inside.


-- 
Again: See tosfot sotah 34b D"H avotai	as well as michtav meliyahu -yamim
noraim where he posits those of high ruchanit stature know nothing of this
world once they leave it.
KT
Joel Rich

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Thank you.

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 09:24:17AM -0400, Prof. Levine quoted R/Dr Saul
Stampfer:
> [41]  The contemporary phenomenon of Talmud commentaries, such as that of 
> Rabbi Steinsaltz
> or the Artscroll commentaries which are in the vernacular and which  
> require no major
> investment of effort to understand, did not have an equivalent in  
> eastern Europe. This was not
> because of any inability to write such a commentary or lack of printing 
> shops to print one. Popularization
> of the Talmud or making it more accessible went against the grain of  
> traditional Jewish
> society. It will be interesting to see what the long-term impact of  
> these commentaries will
> be - whether they will spread knowledge or lead to functional illiteracy 
> in Hebrew and Aramaic.

The question is which we take as the more significant data point, R'
Yisrael Salanter's drive to have easy Hebrew (for those of the masses
who were influenced by Maskilim) and German (for those more enamored
of university than Jewish education) translations of the gemara, or his
failure to accomplish it. He did show such interest, but:

1- This was in RYS's Prussian period, he might not have intended it
for East European audiences; and

2- The lack of success may be attributable to others not sharing the
dream.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

In a recent daf yomi (Nidah 38a) Rav Yehuda claims that birth occurs after
rosh chodesh of the 9th month.
Shmuel disagrees and says that a birth can occur only after 271,272 or 273
days.

Any explanations of either shitah? ie how does bet din declaring Rosh
Chodesh affect the woman (presumably only Jewish women)
and how Shmuel can say there are no early or late deliveries

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 6/25/2012 7:28 AM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> As much as I'd love to ask you for a citation of "makos" referring to 
> the wine, it would probably be as fruitless as asking for a citation 
> of where "shalashudos" refers specifically to the third meal. Thanks 
> very much for the great examples.

R' Doron already posted a citation:

"Zev is absolutely correct. As a support source, see Derech Emunah by R' 
Chaim Kanievsky (Shmittah Veyovel 5:2) in the Tziyyun Hahalachah 
footnote 19 (The latest Bar-Ilan has this) - "Ain Lishpoch Hamakos 
Beyain Shevi'is.""

Lisa

On 25/06/2012 3:11 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
>
> Plus since I don't buy for second your argument that anyone learning full time counts as a TC, the distinction really isn't there.

What other criterion could there be?  Is one person's learning of a
shverer ketzos more valuable than another person's learning of chumash,
if that's what he's up to?  By what standard?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon


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