Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 68

Wed, 20 Jun 2012

• 1. If at first you don't succeed, try try again (Liron Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: If at first you don't succeed, try try again (Micha Berger)
• 3. Kivrey Ovos (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 4. Re: Kivrey Avos (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 5. Loss of Infants (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. Re: halachic infertility (Ilana Elzufon)
• 7. Re: Kivrey Avos (Micha Berger)
• 8. Berachot in the Course of a Meal (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Bug Checker Magnifying Lamp - Cool Light (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: What's a city? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Bug Checker Magnifying Lamp - Cool Light (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: If at first you don't succeed, try try again (Doron Beckerman)
• 13. Re: loss of infants (Ilana Elzufon)
• 14. mourning (Simi Peters)
• 15. Re: Bug Checker Magnifying Lamp - Cool Light (Gershon Dubin)
• 16. Re: Berachot in the Course of a Meal (Zev Sero)

I recently saw something which said "If Howard Shultz gave up after being
turned down by banks 242 times, there would be no Starbucks." This made me
think about where the value of trying something multiple times comes from,
but I couldn't come up with any good examples from the Chumash (or Tanach).
I came up with Avraham davening for Sedom (although he didn't actually
succeed), Avraham and Sarah davening to have children for many years
(although that's not explicitly in the text) and Moshe davening to enter
EY, which was also answered "no". Beyond that, all I could think of was the
digging of wells.

What other examples are there of this?

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 08:14:47PM +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: I recently saw something which said "If Howard Shultz gave up after being
: turned down by banks 242 times, there would be no Starbucks." This made me
: think about where the value of trying something multiple times comes from...

There is Mishlei 24:16:
    Ki sheva yipol tzadiq vaqam,
    uresha'im yikashelu vera'ah.

But it my not be generalizable. The pasuq could refer to the fact that
"Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment."
(-Jim Horning) Or it could be referring to an effect specific to
*spiritual* growth.

Tir'u baTov!

It's an explicit gemara that the nefashos of the dead are aware 	   
									   
									   
							 when someone comes
to their graves.
But only for 12 months when the soul hovers over the body. After
that time period, the nefashos are no longer hovering.
This is not the only interpretation.
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Yes, the Gemara has an odd story about a fellow who gets into a fight with
his wife, sleeps in a graveyard, and hears ghosts speaking, and it repeats a
year later, and for some reason he sleeps in the graveyard again and hears
these pair of ghosts again. The next year, they shut up. While there are
some commentators that consider this history, and therefore proof that the
dead are aware of the living, many others hold that it is not history, and
that the dead know nothing at all (which was King David's position on this,
which is reflected in our tachanun). As for the Zohar, well, that's a
different discussion.

I cannot find anywhere in Nach where it says that Yirmiyahu specifically
went to between Nebo and Chevron to enlist the aid of the deceased. Unless
it's a commentary that cites another source and ties them together. Could
you cite that source for me? Thanks!

Eliyahu Grossman.

-----------------------[Original Post]---------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:06:01 -0400
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kivrey Avos

It's an explicit gemara that the nefashos of the dead are aware when
someone comes to their graves.  And it's an explicit Zohar that when
the world needs rain we should bring a sefer torah to the cemetery and
inform the nefashos of dead of our plight; they then go to Chevron to
inform those who lie there, and together they go up to the higher worlds
and inform their neshamos, and they intercede for us, and we get rain.
The Zohar also explicitly says that "vedoresh el hameisim" refers to
resha'im, who are called dead even in life, and not to tzadikim, who
are called alive even in death.


> [Examples of Kalev, Yosef, the Jews at Kever Rachel]

There's also Yirmiyahu, who went both to Chevron and to Har Nevo
to enlist the aid of the Avos and Moshe Rabbenu.

I realized that people cry for a person?s death for two reasons.

There is a concept in psychology (as well as other disciplines)
called "Overdetermined." People cry for a death for many reasons.
It is an oversimplification, as well as inaccurate, to say that there 
are only two reasons. Certainly we mourn because of the tragedy,
but how would you classify "tragedy" in context of a 100 y.o. vs. an infant
who died?
Of course, we mourn the loss. Something that was whole has been torn
apart. But we also mourn for many more reasons among which can be:
regrets we have in our relationship with the person; because of lost 
future opportunities (which was stated as part of the "two" reasons); because
we miss the individual terribly. Some mourn over the fact that they feel terribly
guilty. 
Each person's situation is unique and we can't really know the inner reasons
why one mourns another. Just as there can be many different emotions when
one davens, so, too, there are many emotions when one mourns (a lot more
than two reasons).

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REMT:     For women whose period of bleeding is less than five days, there
is a way to shorten the twelve-day period without relying on kulos:  skip
going to the mikve one month.  There is then no need to wait five days
before starting to count; she can begin as soon as the bleeding stops. .

That eliminates kulot in hilchot niddah, but it can be a pretty big "kula"
in Shalom Bayit. Especially for a couple who are very stressed by the
infertility situation, or a couple who are borderline in their commitment
to taharat hamishpacha. Of course, that is why we have poskim who can
determine, based on each couple's situation, what approach to recommend.

- Ilana
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On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:45:45PM +0300, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
: I cannot find anywhere in Nach where it says that Yirmiyahu specifically
: went to between Nebo and Chevron to enlist the aid of the deceased. Unless
: it's a commentary that cites another source and ties them together. Could
: you cite that source for me? Thanks!

It's an qinah attributed to R' Eliezer haKalir, "Az Bahalokh Yirmiyahu".
It draws from Eikhah Rabba (pesichah 24), which in turn ends with the
aforementioned davening at qever Rachel, where the nifteres responds
with a "qol beramah ... nehi bechi tamrurim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 From http://tinyurl.com/8x3yfyz

There is a widespread misconception that one who is in the midst of a 
meal that includes bread is not required to recite a blessing on any 
other foods that are consumed in the course of the meal. As we will 
see, the Hamotzi blessing recited over bread at the beginning of a 
meal only exempts foods and their condiments eaten primarily in order 
to satisfy hunger.[1] Other foods will often require their own 
blessing even when eaten during the meal.

For example, foods that are eaten following the main course of a 
meal, such as deserts, fruits, and sweets, will often require their 
own blessing.[2]  There is an interesting exception, however. If such 
foods are eaten together with bread they will not require their own 
blessing. So although fruit eaten as a dessert requires its own 
blessing one would not recite a blessing on the fruit if one eats the 
fruit with bread in every bite.[3]

Please see the above URL for more. YL

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I received a couple of emails today about this 
device. It is described at 
http://tinyurl.com/7nb7gug  There it says next to a picture of the lamp

Bug Checker Magnifying Lamp - Cool Light
Perfect Solution to Tiny Bugs - Saves You from Eye Strain

About - Bug Checker Magnifying Lamp - Cool Light

The Bug Checker convenient and efficient. Easily 
look at small objects without straining your 
eyes. Amazing very bright lamp ? but does not get hot!
It's equipped with an ultra-bright cool circular 
lamp and a 2x - 20x magnifying glass lens that is ideal for Bug Checking.
Makes a great reading lamp as well. Our Bug Check 
Lamp features a bendable gooseneck that can be 
adjusted to any position for optimal viewing or detailed work!
Enjoy a bright light plus magnification with the 
JK-RL01 Magnifier Desk Lamp! Order today!

I was under the impression that whatever 
"creatures" can be seen by someone with normal 
vision are of concern, and that if one cannot see 
them without magnification, then one need not be concerned about them.

Have things changed? YL
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On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 06:35:14PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Lich'ora, if the property is fenced (and thus a reshut hayachid) one
> counts the 70 2/3 amot from the fence, not from the house.

Eiruvin 53a and 55b discuss the use use of shuls, warehouses, two and
three walled structures, unrooved structures (full, 2- or 3- walled),
a place of AZ, a houseboat, a migrant's shack... The ibbur of a city is
a corner of a house that juts out, not its yard. If a fenced in reshus
hayachid were enough, much of that discussion would be moot.

The focus appears to be on structure, not reshus. The textbook case
is a "beis dirah". So, the gemara discusses semi-batim and batim that
aren't diros.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 03:32:31PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I received a couple of emails today about this device. It is described at 
> http://tinyurl.com/7nb7gug  There it says next to a picture of the lamp
>
> Bug Checker Magnifying Lamp - Cool Light
> Perfect Solution to Tiny Bugs - Saves You from Eye Strain
...
> I was under the impression that whatever "creatures" can be seen by 
> someone with normal vision are of concern, and that if one cannot see  
> them without magnification, then one need not be concerned about them.

As you say "whatever 'creatures' can be seen by someone with normal
vision"... The ad mentions eye strain, things a normal person can see,
but cannot comfortably look for leaf after leaf after leaf.

There is also a market for people with older eyes. Especially us short
people, for whom reading glasses are more urgent; we can only hold the
book or lettuce leaf just so far from our eyes!

(That said, my rav said the light box wasn't necessary. I'm just
advocating the other tzad in an eilu va'eilu spirit.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Kavei El Hashem, Chazak Veyaametz Libecha, Vekavei El Hashem (Tehillim 27).
See Rashi there
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1) You really cannot draw any kind of reliable conclusions about a person's
level of grief from their behaviour at a funeral. I'm sure many people
return home from a funeral at which they were very emotional and resume
their normal lives, whereas some mourners who seem very calm in public will
find that the tears only come when they are alone.

2) RMB: It seems clear to me, therefore, that aveilus is 30
days nearly across the board, with parents being a special case because
of a separate chiyuv.

That seems clear to me as well. On a practical level, it also makes sense.
In general, a person only has two parents. That means a maximum of two
year-long aveilut periods (less if they overlap, or if r"l a person
predeceases his parents or an orphan is too young for the laws of aveilut
to apply). But imagine what would happen if elderly people from large
families observed a year every time they lost a sibling.

- Ilana
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My thought when I read R' Akiva's post about the young man who lost his
wife is that he was undoubtedly in total shock at the levaya.  No one
expects to lose a wife in childbirth today.  His apparent calm may well
have reflected numbness.  It is certainly a stretch to assume that he was
relatively indifferent.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters
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From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:42 -0400
> As you say "whatever 'creatures' can be seen by someone with normal
> vision"... The ad mentions eye strain, things a normal person can see,
> but cannot comfortably look for leaf after leaf after leaf.

> There is also a market for people with older eyes...

I believe the rov haposkim hold that if you cannot see anything at all
on the leaf, given good light (requirement in times gone by to look
in sunlight), you need go no further. The big however, is that if you
notice something and don't know what it is, you have to investigate
further with magnifiying technology if necessary.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

On 20/06/2012 3:37 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://tinyurl.com/8x3yfyz

 From that URL:

> There is considerable debate over the need for a blessing over cakes,
> cookies, and other "mezonot" items eaten as a dessert and readers
> comments, customs, and rulings on this issue is especially welcomed.
> Common custom seems to be that one who is fully satiated from a meal
> and is only eating cake and cookies as a dessert or because one enjoys
> their taste, recites a blessing upon them.[13]

One quibble: this applies only to those cakes, etc., whose bracha is
definitely mezonos, i.e. cakes made from a liquid batter.  Cakes made
from dough are hamotzi according to some opinions; we say mezonos on
them because safek brachos lehakel, but within a meal that same safek
works the other way, and one should not say a bracha on them.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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