Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 64

Sat, 16 Jun 2012

• 1. Re: Why Not: Yehoshua BEN Nun? (Zev Sero)
• 2. A question of Yichus (Chana Luntz)
• 3. Re: yaarog v' al.....how many? and why? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: winding on the hand (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: distilled fruit juice (Doron Beckerman)
• 6. Periods of aveilut (Lengelh...@Yahoo.com)
• 7. Re: A question of Yichus (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Periods of aveilut (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Periods of aveilut (Zev Sero)
• 10. The Internet Asifa and RSRH mp3 - soliciting your feedback! (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 11. Re: Why Not: Yehoshua BEN Nun? (hankman)
• 12. Re: Why Not: Yehoshua BEN Nun? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Why Not: Yehoshua BEN Nun? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Rabbi: Organ donations OK without dead's consent (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 15. Re: yaarog v' al.....how many? and why? (Lisa Liel)

On 15/06/2012 11:35 AM, hankman wrote:
> But the reference time frame is almost always ?l?osid lavo? or ?yemos
> hamoshiach? etc. but not bezmaneinu. Our discussion was the nekudos as
> we know them today. Also we could call that the hilchos pronounciation
> for our time, so this IS ?halachot.?

The nekudot merely document the existing pronunciation; they don't
dictate it.  So they're not halachot.  But in any case the whole
concept of "progressive relevation" is irrelevant, because for the
answer we're discussing to work the nekudot had to be known to Moshe
Rabbenu.  Which used to be universally believed, but isn't much any more.


> Finally, ?nevuah? is firmly rooted in commands of the Torah, and is
> not to be seen as an attempt to add HV?S to the Torah. It is a command
> to believe and obey the commands of a navi ? not to create a Torah
> chadasha. They can only be of a temporary nature and not a new mitzvo
> ledoros (unless of course it is as takonos) and valid even if they
> temporarily countermand an express command of the Torah ? but clearly
> based on the Torah as given miSinai.

That is all in the realm of halacha.  But most nevuah has nothing to do
with halacha.  And most nevuah is decidedly new, and it is Torah. So
there's nothing radical in the idea of "progressive revelation".  All
"vezot hatorah" means is that new revelations can't directly change the
halacha.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

RSB writes:

>I was asked to request assistance and comments from the members of this
group with regard to the following problem:

>A man discovers a letter his wife wrote her lover (it was open, in plain
>view) in which she states that she's quite sure the kid is his [the
lover's] b/c the husband was in the army when she became pregnant.

>This is the first indication the husband had of the existence of a lover -
or that the kid is not his. He leaves the house before the birth and sues
for >divorce in Israel.

Just a few comments that nobody (as far as I have seen), has made, which
surprises me.

There seems to be an assumption, which I find rather extraordinary, that
what this woman wrote is true.

Now it seems pretty clear, given that the letter was left in plain view,
that the woman wanted out from the marriage.  And clearly this letter was an
extremely effective way of achieving what she wanted.  But if in fact she
wanted out from the marriage, and wanted no more contact with her husband,
then the last thing she is going to want is for them to need to keep up
contact because he is determined to develop a relationship with yet to be
born child.

Surely the best way of ensuring that doesn't happen is by telling him the
kid is not his.

But how do you even know there is a lover around?  Only from the wife's
letter which was left for the husband to find.  Maybe there isn't even a
lover.  And if there is a lover, maybe the real lover isn't the lover named
in the letter (that has been known to happen before, there is a famous case
about 100 years ago in England, where a woman fingered a prominent
politician as her lover, derailing his career, while the evidence that is
now available seems to support the fact that while she was indeed committing
adultery, it was with somebody entirely different, whom she protected by
fingering the politician).  And if there really is a lover and he is the one
named in the letter, and in fact she really did send the letter to the lover
(not just left it for the husband to read), maybe she wants to convince the
lover that the child is his, because she wants him to stay involved in her
life, and figures this is a good way to do so.  And even if she is not
deliberately lying in the letter, there is still the reality of wishful
thinking, where she may wish the child to be that of the lover, and not of
the husband, and so has convinced herself that the conception must have
taken place when the husband was in the army.

It thus seems to me that the only thing one can really conclude from all
this is that the husband is well and truly better off out of the marriage.
DNA testing will of course show who is the real father, but the Israeli
courts, I think wisely, will not allow that.  However the letter itself
seems to me not to be worth the paper it is written on or to give any real
indication of the truth.

>Shoshana L. Boublil

Regards

Chana

On Sun, Jun 03, 2012 at 02:48:31PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: the rambam holds certain groups (sadducees??/apikorsim,) etc, 
: to be chayav mitah??

I don't know what you mean. Perhaps the din, which the Rambam is only one
source for, of moridin velo maalin? That's apiqursim who disbelieve due
to rebellion. Nor is it really a chiyuv misah, because it's extrajudicial.

...
: shita, and why? since it is not one? of the 3 yaareg v' al yaavors.....

There are aveiros one may commit under duress, when someone threatens
death, that are still punished with misas beis din when violated willingly
(eg, but *might* be complete):
    kishuf, chilul Shabbos, the sins of the ben sorer umoreh,
    wounding one's parent, kidnapping, zaqein mamre, ...


: i recall Micha mentioned a few others like chilul Hashem......

CH might be subsumed under AZ, though.

Going off to war, by its very nature.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres Hakodesh, Ch. 5
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 09:24:19PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khlf8qRSjc4  different  customs  of  retzuos
: on hand...

All of which are Chassidish... a shin that has a point on the outside,
near the base of the pinky. The rest of Ashkenaz wind "inward", so one
ends up with the point of the shin by the index finger.

In Sepharadi kesav, "Vellish", the bottom of a shin is flat, not
pointy. So I don't think there are Sepharadim who do either. ROY has a
dalet on the back of his hand. I don't know where the shin went. What
I see more commonly among Sepharadim in shul is what this kid does
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSuH69FlXiM>.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

Sorry for not spelling it out. The Mishnah there says that Mei Chalav
Kechalav for Machshirin, but the consensus there is that it is Derabanan.
(According to the Rosh to Chullin 114, the case is that the curd is
completely cooked out and all you are left with is water.)  The AhS asks
why it is only Derabanan as milk - it should be Deoraysa because it is
water! In one place he leaves a Tzarich Iyyun, in the other place he says
that it isn't water - it is a blank, and has the status of Mei Peiros. So
after you distill something that did not start as water, turning it into
water, whether or not it has the status of water, or a blank, depends on
which Aruch Hashulchan you want to go with.
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I don't mean to sound callous, but why have legislated periods of mourning for any relative.
One the one hand, I can understand an "expiration" time so one does not
permanently wallow in the sadness of death, but that can't be legislated,
anyway. ?If someone will be clinically depressed the expiration of a
mourning period won't make a difference.

When one has a chronically sick parent, who they have lovingly and
honorably tendered prior to death, I would suggest that much of the
"mourning" may have been done in advance, as their abilities waned. ?What
positive effect does refraining from attending a wedding, or concert, ten
months later provide to anyone?

Regarding the prescribed periods for siblings and spouses - it seems to me
that the "organic" mourning process will be determined by the nature of the
relationship. ?That might even extend to non-official mourning for
grand-parents, uncles & aunts, or (I hesitate to include) a beloved
family pet who loved, and was loved, as if a member of the family.

In considering these factors, it is important to discriminate between
objective and subjective, conditioning. ?For example, we disdain the use of
music during a funeral. ?My uncle, who received refuge in this country
during WWII, specifically asked that the national anthem be played at his
funeral. ?It fit. ?I have attended funerals of employees in churches where
music was an important (and moving) part of the ceremony. ?It was alien to
me, but comforting to those used to it. ?

I guess my point is that if we really want to understand and make sense of
the cultural rules we have, it might be interesting to start with a "values
neutral" position and then consider what each halacha adds to the mix.

Larry?

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On 15/06/2012 11:48 AM, Chana Luntz wrote:
> It thus seems to me that the only thing one can really conclude from all
> this is that the husband is well and truly better off out of the marriage.
> DNA testing will of course show who is the real father, but the Israeli
> courts, I think wisely, will not allow that.  However the letter itself
> seems to me not to be worth the paper it is written on or to give any real
> indication of the truth.

True, but how does this change anything?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 10:00:45AM -0700, Lengelh...@Yahoo.com wrote:
: I don't mean to sound callous, but why have legislated periods of
: mourning for any relative.

It saves the mourner from wondering if they did enough to honor the one
they lost, or for overdoing it and wallowing in their misery too long.
Then there is the person who is convinced that life is supposed to go on,
and they bury their feelings where they fester internally... Knowing in
advance what is "usual and customary" (to quote my medical insurance)
can save a lot of emotional pain.

Then there is what aveilus impresses on the mourner, arguably a litany
of acts designed to remind a person that they aren't a body living
in this world, but a soul temporarily housed in a body. Tearing the clothes,
eschewing new clothes, not shaving -- all deprecations of the importance
of one's appearance. No relations. Shoes might be one of the other, but
not sitting above the ground is man not being at home in the world. Doubly
so when you consider the homonimity of yashav -- to dwell somewhere or to
sit. And when is a person more ready to accept that than when realing from
someone's death?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 15/06/2012 1:00 PM, Lengelh...@Yahoo.com wrote:
> I don't mean to sound callous, but why have legislated periods of mourning for any relative.
> One the one hand, I can understand an "expiration" time so one does
> not permanently wallow in the sadness of death, but that can't be
> legislated, anyway.  If someone will be clinically depressed the
> expiration of a mourning period won't make a difference.

As others have said, I think the laws are designed for the exact
opposite case, where one isn't sorry the relative is dead, and left
to ones own devices one would throw a party rather than sit shiva.
So out of respect the halacha requires one to at least pretend to be
sorry; and for a parent kibud av va'em requires one to put on a show
of being sorry.  I see hilchos aveilus as a sort of guide to faking
sorrow: this is how a person who really was mourning would behave,
so you must behave this way even if you're not.

PS: I know two people (one not Jewish, one Jewish but not observant)
whose reaction to a parent's death was exactly what I think these
halachos are designed to prevent.  One announced "I just heard that my
mother died, and all I am feeling is relief that I no longer need to
worry that she'll find out where I live and show up on my doorstep".
Another announced "This is to let people know that my father has died.
Any condolences should be sent to my mother; none are needed here."

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

[Quoting Prof Levine's pointer to this shiur:
Last night Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer gave a shiur on the above
topic. ... I highly recommend that people listen to this shiur. YL]

The recording is at:
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2012/06/mp3-recording-of-internet-asifa-and.
html

see also the sources at:
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2012/06/tonight-sources-for-conference-call.
html

Thanks!

KT, GS,
YGB

P.S. Feel free to distribute.

CM wrote:
> Finally, ?nevuah? is firmly rooted in commands of the Torah, and is
> not to be seen as an attempt to add HV?S to the Torah. It is a command
> to believe and obey the commands of a navi ? not to create a Torah
> chadasha. They can only be of a temporary nature and not a new mitzvo
> ledoros (unless of course it is as takonos) and valid even if they
> temporarily countermand an express command of the Torah ? but clearly
> based on the Torah as given miSinai.

RZS responded:
That is all in the realm of halacha. But most nevuah has nothing to do
with halacha. And most nevuah is decidedly new, and it is Torah. So
there's nothing radical in the idea of "progressive revelation". All
"vezot hatorah" means is that new revelations can't directly change the
halacha.

CS asks:
So just which ?nevuah is decidedly new? and unknown or not revealed to
Moshe Rabbeinu? Is it the ma?assei merkovo (but ma sheroaso shifcha al
hayam ...) or the nevuas Yeshai?ahu on Gog uMogog or kibbutz Golios etc.
Just what would you point to as decicedly new and unknown to MR or that
adds new revelations unknown to MR the av hanevi?im? Don?t give me a
generality, but point to a specific nevuah in Nach of the type of which you
speak and also tell me how you know MR did not know it.

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster
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On 15/06/2012 2:07 PM, hankman wrote:
> So just which ?nevuah is decidedly new? and unknown or not revealed to
> Moshe Rabbeinu? Is it the ma?assei merkovo (but ma sheroaso shifcha al
> hayam ...) or the nevuas Yeshai?ahu on Gog uMogog or kibbutz Golios
> etc. Just what would you point to as decicedly new and unknown to MR
> or that adds new revelations unknown to MR the av hanevi?im? Don?t
> give me a generality, but point to a specific nevuah in Nach of the
> type of which you speak and also tell me how you know MR did not know
> it.

Well, all of Nach.  And every nevuah that didn't make it into Nach
because it had no lesson for klal yisrael.  None of them were known
before they were given.  So they're all new.  But none of them change
the halacha.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 02:32:39PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Well, all of Nach.  And every nevuah that didn't make it into Nach
> because it had no lesson for klal yisrael.  None of them were known
> before they were given.  So they're all new.  But none of them change
> the halacha.

I thought Lurianic Qabbalah are thoughts the Ari learned from Eliyahu
hanavi in a small house near the Nile. Eliyahu never dies, and even after
translation is still considered alive enough to qualify for reviving
semichah, and for teaching halakhah -- lo baShamayim hi. Lo kol shekein
for teaching aggadita.

I have bigger problems with the Torah the Ramchal ascribes to maggidim.

The mechabeir less so. I'm convinced he sets out to pasqen following
the majority of his triumverate in part to exclude the maggid's Torah
from his results.

The question I have is more about the possibility of receipt of new
information after the end of nevu'ah, not the quality or Torah-ness of
that information. The entire concept of speaking to maggidim. Even what we
call Ruach haqodesh since the nevi'im is more bas qol. (Tosafta Sotah
13:2, Sanhedrin 11a) So how do we have these speaking to mal'akhim,
the embodiments of ideas or sefarim, and so on?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Chaim Manaster wrote:

> I think it is clear to all deleka man depalig, there is no
> ownership (control) after death (nor ownership of your body
> according to the Rabbi in this article even during life).
> Thus you have the perfect basis in halacha (at least from the
> Choshen Mishpot perspective) for an opt out system. Ie, as
> the dead body is ownerless, there is no reason why it should
> not be used to save lives where the only objection might be
> the unknown wishes of the person who died

On the contrary: Doesn't the halacha state that a mes mitzvah acquires ownership of the spot where he died and is therefore entitled to be buried on that spot?

I never learned that in detail, and I have no idea what limitations or
other details apply. But it seems to me that once we've established a
concept that a mes mitzvah is capable of some sort of ownership, then the
door is open to the *possibility* of other sorts of ownership. And I dare
say that his body would be at the very top of the kal vachomer list.

I am NOT paskening that an ordinary dead person owns his body. All I'm
saying is that (contrary to the first line of what I quoted from RCM) it
isn't clear to *me* that he *doesn't* own it.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fdb89638bb894fd616st01vuc

On 6/15/2012 11:39 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 03, 2012 at 02:48:31PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
> ...
> : shita, and why? since it is not one  of the 3 yaareg v' al yaavors.....
...
> CH might be subsumed under AZ, though.

Pardon? Why on earth would chillul Hashem be a toladah of avodah zarah?

Lisa


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