Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 57

Thu, 07 Jun 2012

• 1. LITTER ON SHABBOS (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 2. Re: LITTER ON SHABBOS (Micha Berger)
• 3. Litter on Shabbos (M Cohen)
• 4. Why Only Miriam Was Punished With Leprosy (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 5. Re: West Hartford Doctor Challenges GE On `Sabbath (Chana Luntz)
• 6. testifying exceptions.....?? (Harvey Benton)
• 7. Re: testifying exceptions.....?? (Micha Berger)
• 8. clarification//bitter waters and //// the internet...... (Harvey Benton)
• 9. Re: A wonderful Segulah (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Abuse and Halakhah (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Abuse and Halakhah (Michael Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: Abuse and Halakhah (Doron Beckerman)
• 13. A wonderful Segulah (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 14. Re: Abuse and Halakhah (T6...@aol.com)
• 15. Re: clarification//bitter waters and //// the internet...... (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Abuse and Halakhah (harchinam)

Does avoiding chillul hasheim trump muqtzah?

IMHO there is no chillul haShem in the example given. 
Also, what was not clear to me was the example first of
walking down the street and noticing a wrapper on the 
floor. Did you mean "ground" as opposed to "floor?"
Then at the end you wrote: "Does it make a different if the kid (I
presume it's a child) opened the bag on Shabbos...?" My 
next confusion was: what did a child have to do with noticing a
wrapper on the ground (floor)? Did you mean that initially the kid
threw the wrapper on the ground? And if it were muktzah, what
was the kid doing with it to begin with?

On Wed, Jun 06, 2012 at 09:12:36AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
:> Does avoiding chillul hasheim trump muqtzah?

: IMHO there is no chillul haShem in the example given. 
: Also, what was not clear to me was the example first of
: walking down the street and noticing a wrapper on the 
: floor. Did you mean "ground" as opposed to "floor?"

Here's the case as it happened: There is a wrapper from a Jewish
ethnic brand snack (I think Bisli, but I'm not sure) on the sidewalk
in a neighborhood with a large O population, but also large Hispanic,
Philipino and Indian populations, and even a small smattering of
non-hyphenated Americans.

I was walking home from shul, bent down to pick it up, mostly thinking
a "we're all in this together" attitude toward picking up after our
children.

Then I stopped and thought: Is it muqtzah? Not only is it trash, but
it's now a sack that was nolad on Shabbos.

More detail: When I was a child fewer people were aware of this, but
snack packets start out as flat sheets. The product is dropped on it in
distinct piles, and then the plastic or foil is cut, folded and sealed --
all the sides at once. The first time the packed becomes a sack is when
you tear open one side. This raises problems with the "you can tear for
food for immediate consumption" rule I was raised with. CYLR. And thus,
the litter was likely nolad on Shabbos.

Then I did a double-take: What about the chillul hasheim angle of someone
perhaps seeing a littered sidewalk and thinking less of Jews and Judaism?

I ended up not picking it up. But a fraction of a block later I thought:
Hmmm, would be a good topic to raise on Avodah.

Tangent:
Notice I'm writing "chillul hasheim", not "chillul Hashem". The reason
being that the Creator, "Hashem" in the kinui sense, can't be desecrated
or secularized. One can only ch"v be mechalel His reputation, His name.
Therefore I believe the expression is lower-case-h "chillul hasheim",
and without transliterating it as we tend to pronounce the kinui -- using
"e" for a tzeirei.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The poskim don't allow hashavos avaidah where the object is muktzah
L'chorah the same din w/ apply here.

However, in most the cases the litter not is muktza.
Most pple pick up litter (wrappers/bags/Kleenex/etc) off of their floors on
Shabbos to throw out.
(not because of graf shel rai, but because the litter is not muktza because
it could be reused in some way - bookmark/bottle cover/etc)

Mordechai cohen

Both Miriam and Aaron spoke against their brother, Moshe.
Yet, only Miriam was punished with leprosy.
There is a machlokes between Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Yehudah.
Rabbi Akiva maintains that Aaron was also punished with leprosy
albeit to a minor extent. Rabbi Yehuda disagrees and says that 
Aaron's punishment was being reprimanded by God. In any event,
the Torah only specifies that it was Miriam who contracted tzaraas.
Why didn't Aaron get similarly punished? In our legal system if a person
is charged with a crime and spends time in jail prior to a conviction, he is
given credit for "time served." Similarly, Aaron lost 2 sons. That would be
punishment enough for even a future sin. Therefore, I would answer that
Aaron got credit for "time served" (symbolically speaking).

RTK writes:
>It seems to me that Harris is wrong about the halacha.  You can't turn  an 
>oven on on Shabbos (even by setting a timer to do it) in order to heat up  
>food.  You can put cold food on a blech but IIANM you can't put cold food in 
>a hot oven on Shabbos.  
 
Well not so pashut even if you are talking about a hot oven - many
Sephardi poskim will allow a time clocked oven if the food is already
fully cooked and there is more solid than liquid, and the controls
are covered (or whatever else deemed necessary to consider it garuf
and katum).

But even for Ashkenazim, you are assuming the oven is hot. Why not
assume that he was planning to put the food in when the oven was cold,
for the oven to then turn itself on (by way of time clock) and warm
the food. As this seems to add grama to the mix, why should that not
be permissible even for Ashkenazim?

Note that ROY has a fascinating teshuva (Volume 10 of the Yabiat Omer,
siman 26) in which he holds that in relation to fully cooked *soup* -
ie a liquid, you can put it on a blech attached to a time clock while
the time clock has made the blech be off and leave it there, knowing
that the time clock will then turn the blech on and warm up the soup for
your shabbas lunch! This is despite the Sephardi position regarding
heating liquids being if anything more machmir than the Ashkenazi one
(ie clearly holding yesh bishul achar bishul for a d'var lach - although
ROY holds that this is d'rabbanan).


On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 04:58:27PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I've wondered about this too. My guess is that both are grama, and those
: rabbanim would say so. The difference (I'm guessing) is that they're
: willing to allow this grama for the need of those cholim etc. who have
: a real need for Machon Zomet devices, but they're not willing to concede
: this leniency for more ordinary cases. Again, this is just my guess.

Tzomet itself will draw this distinction. We had a whole long discussion
with Rabbi Rosen about our lift. He was perfectly happy for us to use
the grama switch to open the lift to put my disabled son in, to close
it with him inside, to send it up to the next floor, then to open it to
take him out. Similarly with my husband's elderly uncle, who could also
be classified as a choleh. BUT the question was, what about closing the
lift door again. The problem was that the lift door opened against the
bedroom door of the room of my other (non disabled) son, and covered
about three quarters of it. That meant that, while it was possible
(especially since he is just a kid) for him to squeeze himself round
the lift door and in or out of his bedroom, we were worried that (a) he
might hurt himself going to the bathroom in the middle of the night and
(b) he might damage the lift door (and if the lift is disabled then we
have no way of getting my disabled son up and down the stairs without
seriously doing our backs in). Tzomet was very unhappy about us using
the grama switch to close the door, because that particular closing was
primarily for the benefit of my non disabled son, not for my disabled
son. My husband ultimately spoke to his own Rav, who being Sephardi,
was much more relaxed about grama, and who had no problem us closing
the lift door in these circumstances.


BUT then RMB writes:
>What they signed, at least as translated by "a prominent rov and posek"
>who sent it to YWN:
>>  In our opinion, pressing the keys on Yom Tov is strictly forbidden
>>  since pressing a key immediately closes an electrical circuit and
>> instructs the microcontroller to carry out an action. Pressing the
>> key is forbidden just as all manipulation of electricity is forbidden
>> on Shabbos and Yom Tov either because of "Makeh B'patish" or because
>> of "Mesaken" as described in Igros Moshe (vol.3 ?42 and vol.4 ?84)
>> whereby there can be a Torah violation immediately upon pressing the
>> key even if no "fire'" is created. This operation is not considered
>> "Grama".

I do not know how the keypad modifications on these ovens work, but if
this Rav is correct that pressing the key immediately closes an electric
circuit then it is very different to the way the Tzomet grama switch
works on our lift.

As I understand it, the pressing of the Tzomet button only has a
mechanical effect - think of it like physically moving a piece of
plastic from point A to point B. Then there is some sort of beam that
checks every minute or so to see where the plastic is. If it finds it
at point A, it does nothing, if it finds it at point B, it then operates
the mechanism (actually, I think it is even more complicated than this,
it has to find it at point B twice in a row, to make sure that you are
not moving it to point B just at the particular time the beam is doing
its check, making the action-reaction immediate). The beam is checking
regularly every minute or so from before shabbas (indeed all week if
you never bother to switch the grama switches off, but just use the
manufacturers buttons during the week). I also believe that how often
the beam checks may be somewhat randomised, so it is not even as though
it checks every 80 seconds or whatever, but a slightly random number
within certain parameters.

Regards
Chana

how can a woman testify in front of a bes din, that she was raped (either
in a field/ or not) when women (aiuiit) cannot testify in court (at
least acc to the rambam)??

are there exceptions to this rule?????

hb

On Wed, Jun 06, 2012 at 01:40:39PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: how can a woman testify in front of a bes din, that she was raped (either
: in a field/ or not) when women (aiuiit) cannot testify in court (at
: least acc to the rambam)??

Women cannot testify lekhol hadei'os WRT oneshim, and can testify even
according to the Rambam WRT issurim.

But here it's not eidus. She is the to'enes.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

nowadays: i have two questions,

1. in the absence of the "bitter waters" if one warns his wife (in
front of witnesses) what does one do??? given that there is no "official
rectification (as prescribed in the chumash)

if there is a warning given, is there a way to take it back (eg in front
of a bes din?

2. can electronic communication be considered (being alone") with a
person, if that is what is specified by the husband???

or in the ole days, was writing (say a letter from overseas) esteemed to be
equal in the poskim's eyes to an in person encounter???

hb

On Thu, Jun 07, 2012 at 12:00:53PM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: Someone sent me a post stating that with summer starting and as "all roads
: are considered dangerous", we should use the Sheloh HaKadosh's segula of
: always saying "with Hashem's help".
: 
: My response was the following:
...
: The full Segula is - look before you leap, Sof Ma'aseh BeMachshava Techilla
: - in order to say "with Hashem's help" you have to make sure you are
: behaving in a way that Hashem would approve of!!!

A third issue is hishtadus. All the bitachon one can muster (even if
we are speaking of RMAH) can only get you so far, and some hishtadlus
is needed as well. Driving sanely isn't only a way to earn the segulah,
it the only way to navigate the bitachon-hishtadlus synthesis.

And even then, bitachon (al pi the CI, pace Novhardok) is about knowing
that if ch"v one were in a crash, it's not just "bad luck" but part of
the Divine Plan. So all the bitachon and tefillah in the world, all the
remembering to do one of the 6 constant mitzvos, will not guarantee that
one will bring that Plan in line with their plans.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

The first in a series of posts hijacked from Areivim. -micha]

On Thu, Jun 07, 2012 at 12:05:06AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote to Areivim:
: There is a problem. It is rather large. We know that there is tremendous
: emotional devastation caused by sexual abuse, but, I tread lightly here,
: that attitude is not expressed with any kind of force or conviction by
: Chazal....

: One might even say that the Mishnah is saying no Chiddush, merely mirroring
: the Torah's - G-d Almighty Himself's - attitude of how to weigh the issues
: of Hotza'as Shem Ra versus rape  of a virgin girl - and He doubled down on
: Hotza'as Shem Ra.

It's an attack, and therefore I would think there would be all 5 payments.
Nezeq is the loss of besulim. But I think in today's world, tzaar,
boshes and ripui would be far greater. My line of reasoning:

Possibly in Chazal's day, living under the Romans or Sassanids (the
"2nd Persian Empire") made violation more common, and perhaps it was
therefore less psychologically traumatic.

I'm thinking of the way the death of my daughter was and still is
earth-shatering, but just a couple of generations ago, when infant
mortality was more commmon, people apparently managed. Psychological
trauma and the need for refu'as hanefesh (beyond refu'as haguf) appears
to partly be a function of expectation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Doron Beckerman <beck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One might even say that the Mishnah is saying no Chiddush, merely
> mirroring the Torah's - G-d Almighty Himself's - attitude of how to weigh
> the issues of Hotza'as Shem Ra versus rape  of a virgin girl - and He
> doubled down on Hotza'as Shem Ra.

I'm not sure what is the modern analogue to Hotza'as Shem Ra - is it the
spreading of false rumors (a more literal analogue), or is it the ruining
of a young life (a more holistic analogue, imo)?

KT,
Michael

> >> It's an attack, and therefore I would think there would be all 5
> payments. <<

It is a Mishnah in Kesuvos 39a.

> >> Nezeq is the loss of besulim. But I think in today's world, tzaar,
> boshes and ripui would be far greater. <<

I don't think one would pay for psychological tza'ar, since you only pay
for tza'ar bish'as maaseh. In fact, the Gemara's opening question by Oness
- "Tza'ar Demai" - and the entire ensuing discussion, is very much part of
what I am talking about regarding Chazal not expressing the psychological
trauma involved. I'm not sure about ripui, since it is glaringly omitted
among the payments in the Mishnah there, see Shittah Mekubetzes who notes
this, stating that it is different than other chabalah, without comment. I
don't know why, though. If the reason is because she'll have the same ripui
issues after marriage, then it wouldn't apply here.

Boshes, yes. Very much so. See Teshuvos Binyamin Zev 142 about a girl who
was assaulted and *died* of shame. He demands resitution for Boshes to the
Mishpachah as well. But, by the same token, in the context of Boshes the
Shulchan Aruch speaks of Biyush Bedevarim and how awful and terrible it is,
and Motzee Shem Ra that much worse, and Ain Lo Chelek LaOlam Haba if done
in public etc.

But all this doesn't really get around the issue - when Hashem, so to
speak,had a chance to express His views on Chumras HaAveirah per se (which
is what the Mishnah in Arachin is talking about - Lo Nechtam Gzar Dinam
Bamidbar Ella Al Lashon Hara), He banged the table harder on Hotza'as Shem
Ra.

Someone sent me a post stating that with summer starting and as "all roads
are considered dangerous", we should use the Sheloh HaKadosh's segula of
always saying "with Hashem's help".

My response was the following:

The full Segula is - look before you leap, Sof Ma'aseh BeMachshava Techilla
- in order to say "with Hashem's help" you have to make sure you are
behaving in a way that Hashem would approve of!!!

Signal when you change lanes;

Follow traffic laws;

Don't stop if by stopping you are causing an impediment/harm to someone
else;

In short - Ma De'ssani Alach LeChaverach Lo Ta'avid!

Shoshana L. Boublil

From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toram...@bezeqint.net>
> The placing of permitting abuse vs. Lashon HaRa bothers me. We have
> mitzvat Eidut where a person is obligated by Torah to inform the local
> Beit Din of an aveira. There is no discussion with regard to this mitzvah
> at all

From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
> The Gemara says that if a person comes to Beis Din as a single eid,
> and therefore has no ne'emanus as an eid, he is guilty of leshon hara and,
> in one case in the Gemara, was given malkos for his efforts.

I really don't think hilchos eidus are relevant here. Ask any rav you can
think of and I am sure he would say that if you have personal, credible
knowledge of someone who is currently being a rodef -- specifically,
that someone is molesting children (let's say your own child told you
a camp counselor did xyz) -- you should tell somebody in authority and
not wait to ascertain that you are one of two eyewitnesses, that you
warned the perp, that you are not related to the perp or to the victim,
yada yada. I'm not too sure of the details of eidus but if you know
an abuser you have a positive duty to report him, and many if not most
rabbanim would say you should call the police.

--Toby Katz

On 6/06/2012 3:05 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
>
> nowadays: i have two questions,
>
> 1. in the absence of the "bitter waters" if one warns his wife (in
> front of witnesses) what does one do??? given that there is no "official
> rectification (as prescribed in the chumash)

Better not do it then.  If one does, and then she violates the warning
then one must divorce her.


> if there is a warning given, is there a way to take it back (eg in front
> of a bes din?

No need for a beis din -- but it only works before she violated it.
Once she violates it there's no way to retract it.

  
> 2. can electronic communication be considered (being alone") with a
> person, if that is what is specified by the husband???

Of course not.  How is it physically possible for anything to have
happened if they weren't in the same place at the same time?


> or in the ole days, was writing (say a letter from overseas) esteemed to be
> equal in the poskim's eyes to an in person encounter???

Again, of course not.  Certain biological facts should be obvious.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

>
> Possibly in Chazal's day, living under the Romans or Sassanids (the
> "2nd Persian Empire") made violation more common, and perhaps it was
> therefore less psychologically traumatic.
>
> I'm thinking of the way the death of my daughter was and still is
> earth-shatering, but just a couple of generations ago, when infant
> mortality was more commmon, people apparently managed. Psychological
> trauma and the need for refu'as hanefesh (beyond refu'as haguf) appears
> to partly be a function of expectation.
>

I don't think that this is accurate. It is more accurate to say that this
tzaar was just not discussed and written about and put into the JPost or on
Ynet so we don't know the extent of people's private suffering.

I remember that my mother told me that she overheard her father consoling
her mother after the loss of their infant son [my mother's infant
brother]. In the early 1920's there were many people who lost children to
disease and other things and it did not seem to have made it any easier
according to elderly relatives that I heard stories from. It just wasn't
dwelt upon and people didn't have therapists or social workers to run to
for every trauma in life, so they just "dealt". Or not.

And we have all heard holocaust survivors tell stories of watching family
members be murdered, which was unfortunately very common at that time, and
they were certainly as traumatized as anyone else would be in that same
situation.

Bringing this back to the original subject, I don't think we would ever
find evidence that rape or molestation was less traumatic or less
problematic at any other time in history. People just had to suffer
whatever they had to suffer and didn't have blogs to announce to the world
how they felt about it. The question is what remedy Torah mandates for this
crime against a person and their family.

It does seem to my "modern sensibilities" that monetary compensation should
not be the end of the story, but on the other hand I remember being
surprised at how little punishment one got for killing one's slave by
beating him to death.

*** Harchinam
     out in harei yehuda
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