Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 56

Wed, 06 Jun 2012

• 1. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Litter on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 5. eidim zomimem (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Litter on Shabbos (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Eidim Zomemin (Doron Beckerman)
• 10. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (menucha)
• 12. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (T6...@aol.com)
• 14. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Would Ruth's conversion be rejected today? (Zev Sero)
• 17. Re: West Hartford Doctor Challenges GE On `Sabbath Mode' Oven (T613K@aol.com)

On 3/06/2012 2:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> What if Orpah and Rus are child brides, who were giyoros qetanos and
> therefore qabbalas ol mitzvos would be years later?

If they were converted al daas avihem then the giyur is tofes immediately
and permanently, and they have no right to undo either the giyur or the
marriage when they grow up.  So for this theory to work one would have to
suppose either that their fathers were deceased or that they consented
only to the marriage and not to the giyur.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

Adapting an idea from RRW, R' Micha Berger suggested:

> What if Orpah and Rus are child brides, who were giyoros qetanos
> and therefore qabbalas ol mitzvos would be years later?

It would certainly resolve most of the problems. But some would still
remain: Granted that such a ger does have the right to cancel the gerus,
but we don't recommend it, do we?

When a non-Jew wants to convert, we test his resolve by turning him away.
But "ad k'day kach" to do that to someone who already converted, behaved as
a Jew for ten years, and has now reached adulthood?

Especially if the ger in question would be going back to real avodah zara,
one could argue that that the sort of urging that Naami did would
constitute lifnei iver!

And in the particulars of this case, it would change the story from being
about a mother-in-law and her fully adult daughters-in-law, into a story
about a mother-in-law who was more like an adoptive mother, and her
teenaged (certainly no older than 22) daughters-in-law. Would an adoptive
parent of a ger katan urge such a break so strongly?

I must admit that, intellectually, this solution seems almost perfect. But emotionally, I find it more difficult than any of the others.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fcc2213de6d1158096st01vuc

On 3/06/2012 10:47 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> And in the particulars of this case, it would change the story from
> being about a mother-in-law and her fully adult daughters-in-law, into
> a story about a mother-in-law who was more like an adoptive mother,
> and her teenaged (certainly no older than 22) daughters-in-law.

No, no older than 12! Which doesn't mean they were married at 2,
because we don't know how far into the 10 years they got married.
And that's beside the fact that for this theory to work their fathers
must have been dead before their marriage and giyur.

Still, it's unlikely.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

Say someone is walking down a street on Shabbos, within an eruv,
and notices on the floor the wrapper from a heimish brand product. The
person wants to pick up the wrapper, to minimize any negative image of our
community caused by Jewish-looking garbage flowing down the street. But,
of course, it's muqtzah. Does avoiding chillul hasheim trump muqtzah? Can
we call this letzorekh gufo? Does it make a different if the kid (I
presume it's a child) opened the bag on Shabbos so that it's a keli that
was nolad?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

1. 2 witnesses come forward and testify that Reuvain committed a sin that
would be chayav mita bydei Shamayim.  The beit din concurs and then 2
witnesses show up and are meizim the first 2.  Does HKB"H count the 1st 2
witnesses as being chayav mita bydei Shamayim?

2. 2 witnesses testify that reuvain killed shimon but there was no hatraah.
 The beit din decides reuvain will go into the kippah and be killed by the
food/water treatment.	2 witnesses come  and are meizim the 1st witnesses.
 Do the1st set	get sent to the kippah?

3. Same as 2 but the community also has a rule that in such a case reuvain
must pay $1000 and cannot be honored at the shul dinner. Do those
restrictions now apply to the 1st witnesses?

KT
Joel Rich

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On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 03:08:07AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Still, it's unlikely.

I agree it's unlikey, but not because of the logistics of Machlon and
Chilion marrying children. After all, that's not a random variable;
if we wish to say both married childre, then we would need to think of
a reason why this is desirable. Shimshon's experience would shed some
light. Also, given the promiscuity of Moav, perhaps marrying a girl who
wasn't yet 3 had that motivation.

I think it's unlikely because there is a machloqes about when they were
meguyaros, my suggestion would avoid many of the problems each tzad
has with the other, but no one that I know of (except RRW's variant)
put the idea out there. That makes it more likely that there is a flaw
out there I don't yet see with saying they were megayaros as qetanos
and then Rus confirmed before beis din in EY.

Although portraying Rus as a 12 year old makes her dependency on Naami's
advice very natural. OTOH, an immigrant from a foreign country would
also be very dependent.

On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 02:47:52AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: It would certainly resolve most of the problems. But some would still
: remain: Granted that such a ger does have the right to cancel the gerus,
: but we don't recommend it, do we?

: When a non-Jew wants to convert, we test his resolve by turning him
: away. But "ad k'day kach" to do that to someone who already converted,
: behaved as a Jew for ten years, and has now reached adulthood?

In the case in the gemara, the girl is married to a kohein and eating his
terumah, so yes, it's in her best interest to affirm her Jewishness. And
in the typical case nowadays, it is an adoptive child remaining with
the religion of her parents, as well as the lifestle she was raised with.

But Orpah had no family. Her prospects were such that Naami would soon
tell everyone to call her Marah. Naami points out the unlikelihood of
their marrying if they choose not to retroactively anul their geirus.

When we convert a child al da'as someone else, we are relying on zakhin
le'adam shelo befanav. Perhaps Naami simply didn't see their lives
in Yehudah as likely to be much of a zekhus, and told her to do the
"intelligent" thing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

On 4/06/2012 9:47 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Say someone is walking down a street on Shabbos, within an eruv,
> and notices on the floor the wrapper from a heimish brand product. The
> person wants to pick up the wrapper, to minimize any negative image of our
> community caused by Jewish-looking garbage flowing down the street. But,
> of course, it's muqtzah. Does avoiding chillul hasheim trump muqtzah? Can
> we call this letzorekh gufo? Does it make a different if the kid (I
> presume it's a child) opened the bag on Shabbos so that it's a keli that
> was nolad?

If it bothers you then perhaps it's a graf shel re'i.  Normally we say
that a graf shel re'i can only be moved if you must sit there looking
at it, but if you can go sit somewhere else it can't be.  But here its
very existence bothers you, even if you don't have to look at it, so
maybe the same heter applies.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 4/06/2012 10:06 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> In the case in the gemara, the girl is married to a kohein and eating his
> terumah, so yes, it's in her best interest to affirm her Jewishness.

Huh?  The kohen's child bride is not a giyores!   If she were, then
he couldn't marry her no matter how old she was and how firm her
Jewishness.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

>> 1. 2 witnesses come forward and testify that Reuvain committed a sin
that would be chayav mita bydei Shamayim.  The beit din concurs and then 2
witnesses show up and are meizim the first 2.  Does HKB?H count the 1st 2
witnesses as being chayav mita bydei Shamayim? <<

See Ritva Makos 2b citing the Ramban - "According to the opinion that holds
Kufra (paying kofer for one's Muad ox killing someone is a) kapparah, you
can't have hazamah, since their primary testimony is to render him liable
for Misah Beyedei Shamanyim, as it states 'And also its owner shall be put
to death', and their testimony, in respect to Heaven, changes nothing,
since if his ox killed someone then without their testimony he will be
liable in Heaven, and if not, then their testimony is not going to make him
liable in Heaven, since Heaven has no need for their testimony."

>> 2. 2 witnesses testify that reuvain killed shimon but there was no
hatraah.  The beit din decides reuvain will go into the kippah and be
killed by the food/water treatment.   2 witnesses come  and are meizim the
1st witnesses.  Do the1st set  get sent to the kippah? <<

Why not? Whether you hold Kipah is a Halachah Lemoshe Misinai (Ran) or
Derabanan (Yad Remah) it is still a death penalty that Beis Din imposes.
The Chazon Ish has a Safek whether EZ who testified that one who is
*already* sentenced to kipah deserves the death penalty for something else,
and are found to be zomeim, whether they get killed, but the general rules
of Dinei Nefashos apply.

>> 3. Same as 2 but the community also has a rule that in such a case
reuvain must pay $1000 and cannot be honored at the shul dinner. Do those
restrictions now apply to the 1st witnesses? <<

This probably gets into  the Ramban's first answer of why eidei ben
Gerushah do not pay for the Matnos Kehunah that they wanted to make him
lose. There are different explanations of what the Ramban means in his
first answer, ayyen sham.
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On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 03:53:14PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 4/06/2012 10:06 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> In the case in the gemara, the girl is married to a kohein and eating his
>> terumah, so yes, it's in her best interest to affirm her Jewishness.

> Huh?  The kohen's child bride is not a giyores!   If she were, then
> he couldn't marry her no matter how old she was and how firm her
> Jewishness.

The extension of the gezeira to pechusah mibas 3 was during the period
of the amora'im. Eg Kesuvos 11a. There are discussions in shas that
predate it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Wouldn't work according to Midrash Ruth Rabba  that she was 40 years old 
when married Boaz.
menucha

Micha Berger wrote:

>RRW's recent blog post
>http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2012/06/ruth-geirut-yibb
>um-proprosed-answer.html
>had me wondering....
>
>What if Orpah and Rus are child brides, who were giyoros qetanos and
>therefore qabbalas ol mitzvos would be years later?
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha
>_______________________________________________
>Avodah mailing list
>Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
>  
>

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 07:04:21AM +0300, menucha wrote:
> Wouldn't work according to Midrash Ruth Rabba  that she was 40 years old  
> when married Boaz.

20 years of beis din deliberations before they would vote "'Moavi' velo
Moavis"? <half-grin>

It also wouldn't work according to those who use the words of the megillah
to show the steps of conversion, as that presumes the conversion was after
their return.

My question is more about why this answer isn't given, not whether it was
consistent with those answers that were. IMHO, it has fewer remining
problems than assuming a normal conversion before the original marriages,
or Rus not converting until after her arrival in EY.

BTW, in his original proposal, RRW suggested that at the time, they could
have held of other cases of a conversion with a tenai lemafreia. I though
that was overly complicated. But if so, her age is a non-issue.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 12:07:32AM -0400, T6...@aol.com  wrote:
: But what about according to those who hold that they both  converted  
prior
: to marrying Machlon and Kilyon? Naami treated both  Ruth and Orpah the 
same
: way, did she not? So if there were problems with  the validity of Orpah's
: giyur,  there must have been problems with the  validity of Ruth's.

Not necessarily. Hypothetically speaking, what if  Naami saw Orpah, the
day (or the hour) after tevillah, in front of her idols?  That would
certainly cast doubt on her qabbalas ol mitzvos at the time of  tevilah,
while still upholding Rus's  geirus.

:-)BBii!
-Micha





>>>>
 
Actually it was not I but R' Akiva Miller who wrote the passage to which  
RMB is responding here.  I merely quoted RAM's passage before adding my own  
comments.
 
And in fact my response was similar to RMB's:  I suggested that  Orpah's 
conversion may have been invalid while Ruth's was valid, perhaps because  
there was no genuine kabalas ohl mitzvos and sincere intention to convert on  
Orpah's part.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 



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On 4/06/2012 6:18 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 03:53:14PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 4/06/2012 10:06 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> In the case in the gemara, the girl is married to a kohein and eating his
>>> terumah, so yes, it's in her best interest to affirm her Jewishness.
>
>> Huh?  The kohen's child bride is not a giyores!   If she were, then
>> he couldn't marry her no matter how old she was and how firm her
>> Jewishness.
>
> The extension of the gezeira to pechusah mibas 3 was during the period
> of the amora'im. Eg Kesuvos 11a. There are discussions in shas that
> predate it.

What gezeira?  This is an issur de'oraisa!  And there is no discussion
of it on that page.

Maybe you meant Yevamos 60b and Kidushin 78a, but that is a machlokes
tana'im over what the halacha de'oraisa is.  I'm not aware of any amora
who paskened like RSBY.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:39:09AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> The extension of the gezeira to pechusah mibas 3 was during the period
>> of the amora'im. Eg Kesuvos 11a. There are discussions in shas that
>> predate it.

> What gezeira?  This is an issur de'oraisa!  And there is no discussion
> of it on that page.

The notion that you have to worry about every giyores being a perutzah
AFAIK is derabbanan. And gechusah mibas 3 is definitely. In Kesuvos 11a,
the first mishnah talks about a kohein marrying a giyores, shevuyah or
shifchah who was returned to the community before age 3.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 5/06/2012 12:57 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:39:09AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> The extension of the gezeira to pechusah mibas 3 was during the period
>>> of the amora'im. Eg Kesuvos 11a. There are discussions in shas that
>>> predate it.

>> What gezeira?  This is an issur de'oraisa!  And there is no discussion
>> of it on that page.

> The notion that you have to worry about every giyores being a perutzah
> AFAIK is derabbanan.

The issur has nothing to do with any such worry.  It's a gezeras hakasuv.


> And gechusah mibas 3 is definitely. In Kesuvos 11a,

No, it is not.


> the first mishnah talks about a kohein marrying a giyores, shevuyah or
> shifchah who was returned to the community before age 3.

No, it doesn't.  It doesn't mention a kohen and has nothing to do with
a kohen.  A kohen cannot marry a giyores, at any age, mid'oraisa.  Only
RSBY allows it, and the halacha was decided against him before the
amora'im's time.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

 
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>

>>  Harris also cannot cook food on the Sabbath. He is allowed only to
reheat  previously cooked food without starting or stopping an
electrical circuit. An  oven with a Sabbath mode bypasses the
automatic 12-hour shut-off circuitry  built into modern ovens for
safety. He also assumed the Sabbath-compliant  oven he bought had a
time-bake feature that could be set before the weekend  Sabbath to
turn on automatically to reheat the pre-cooked food.

"That  assumption," he says, "ultimately proved wrong."

As Harris understood it,  this was not a proper Sabbath mode. <<
 

 
>>>>>
 
It seems to me that Harris is wrong about the halacha.  You can't turn  an 
oven on on Shabbos (even by setting a timer to do it) in order to heat up  
food.  You can put cold food on a blech but IIANM you can't put cold food  in 
a hot oven on Shabbos.  
 
He thought the oven could be set to turn itself on on Shabbos, because he  
was misinformed about what he could do on Shabbos.  Neither GE nor the  
Star-K misled him.
 
The main advantage of a Sabbath mode is that it will stay on for two  or 
three days over a long yom tov.  It lets you override the automatic  12-hour 
cutoff that all the new-fangled ovens have.  In the good old days  /all/ 
ovens were "Sabbath mode" in this respect:  they stayed on until you  turned 
them off.
 

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney  -- good values, good family, good  hair


------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 


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