Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 50

Fri, 25 May 2012

• 1. Re: why??? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Torah Pre-Sinai (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: why??? (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Torah Pre-Sinai (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: What's special about shevet Shimon? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Gishmaychem (Zev Sero)
• 7. When is exaggeration proper and improper? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 8. Re: When is exaggeration proper and improper? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Torah Pre-Sinai (Micha Berger)
• 10. Torah Pre-Sinai (Sholom Simon)
• 11. Re: Source needed (Ezra Chwat)
• 12. Re: Gishmaychem (Liron Kopinsky)
• 13. size of EY (Eli Turkel)
• 14. kedushat EY = Bet Shean (Eli Turkel)

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:30:36PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: a. par helem davar???
: why would Hashem make a whole Eida {of the best} talmidei chachamim
: forget something???

Why the Holocaust? Can anyone still ask "Why did G-d <anything>?"

But still, people have free will. HQBH can /help/ a TC, siyata diShmaya,
but if he doesn't take the steps to remember, Hashem isn't going to step
in and do it for him.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 02:10:50PM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: Obviously the sheva mitzvos b'nei Noach they observed but how did
: they know about the chukim and korbonos, as well as tzitzis, mezuzah,
: tefillin, etc. etc. etc.?

(Mefarshim on the chumash generally address this on Bereishis 26:5.)

Rashi says they kept all the mitzvos. But if you turn to the gemara
Yuma 128b, there are three opinions.

1- Rav: The avos keps the entire Torah
2- R' Ashi: ... even the derabbanans.
3- R Shimi bar Chiya: Avraham only kept the 7 mitzvos and beris Milah.
   (If we're talking all three Avos, presumably the only variation is
   Yaaqov and his sons keeping gid hanasheh.)

Rashi is quoting Rav Ashi. But he is in the minority. Most rishonim hold
like RSBC. Including: the Rambam (Melachim 9:1), his son, the Me'iri
(intro to Avos), the Ramban, Seforno, IE, Radaq, Chizquni and the Ramah
(okay, not a rishon).

According to RMMS's understanding of RYYS (Sefer haMaamarim 5697, pg 282
in a hagah titled "beruchnius velo begashmius), Rav and R' Ashi aren't
being fully literal. The avos accomplished the spiritual objectives of
the mitzvos, and not for every mitzvah did they physically fulfill it
as we would.

RCVolozhiner holds like Rashi, and answers your question in NhC 1:21. He
holds that they were aware enough of their souls to detect what was
missing and intuit halakah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:30:36PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: a. par helem davar???
: why would Hashem make a whole Eida {of the best} talmidei chachamim
: forget something???

Why the Holocaust? Can anyone still ask "Why did G-d <anything>?"

But still, people have free will. HQBH can /help/ a TC, siyata diShmaya,
but if he doesn't take the steps to remember, Hashem isn't going to step
in and do it for him.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
True-but if we're looking for hashkafic lessons, perhaps it's to remind us that even the greatest men are human and susceptible to falling short of perfection
KT
Joel Rich

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I have never received a satisfactory answer to the following question:
We are taught that the Ovos amongst others observed Torah.
Obviously the sheva mitzvos b'nei Noach they observed but how did
they know about the chukim and korbonos, as well as tzitzis, mezuzah,
tefillin, etc. etc. etc.?
_______________________________________________
They were at such a high level that they resonated to HKB"H's frequency.  (my summary of the Nefesh hachaim)
If you want an 8 pg. pdf of a shiur on the topic, let me know
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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Thank you.

On 24/05/2012 2:39 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> The tribe of Shimon was the only tribe according to Rashi that did not receive a curse.

What curse?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 23/05/2012 11:20 AM, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> In the beginning of Parasha Behuchosai (26:4): "V'natati gishmaychem b'itam..."
> What does it mean to say "YOUR rain"? We can't find anyone who comments on
> this

Go to Rashi's main source, Toras Cohanim:

Your rain, and not the rain of other countries.  So how can I maintain
"And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and your
seed"?  That there will be satiety in Eretz Yisrael and famine in all
the other countries, and they will come and buy from you and enrich you
with money, in the same way as it is said "And Yosef collected all the
money that was to be found in Egypt and Cenaan through the food that they
bought", and so it says "and as your days shall be your excretion", that
all the countries shall excrete gold and bring it to Eretz Yisrael.



-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

In an Areivim thread titled "Asifa - Lose Olam Haba", RMB wrote:

> Anyone who was firmly within the target audience
> realized it was guzma.

I don't read Areivim, nor did I attend the Asifa, but the context of this
statement doesn't really matter too much. But it is a good opening to a
question which has long bothered me. Namely: Do Chazal or Poskim discuss
when guzma is appropriate, and when it is not?

Are they at all worried about people who will take their words too
seriously? For example, if a recognized gadol attempts to dramatize how
awful a certain act is, he might say that it is Yehareg v'Al Yaavor. My
fear is that there may be some people who will take that as a psak halacha
-- after all, he said it, right? -- and might actually allow themselves to
die rather than do that terrible thing. Alternatively, the person might
succumb to temptation, and then suffer much worse guilt pangs than are
actually appropriate.

I have always been something of a literalist, and when I hear people saying
things which are clear exaggerations, they tend to lose credibility in my
eyes. But as I have matured, I have come to understand that guzma CAN be a
legitimate rhetorical device, not unlike poetry, where the speaker can
expect the audience (or most of the audience) to interpret the speech
properly.

Where is that line between truth and guzma?  Once it gets blurred, to what
extent can people be held responsible for their disbelief? If I am told,
"The rabbi said that, but he did not really expect us to go that far," what
will prevent me from applying it to *other* things that the rabbi said? And
pretty soon, I might sincerely believe that Jewish "law" is not binding on
all Jews, but only on the "target audience".

The sticking point, in my mind, is where to draw the line. I'd love to know
whether -- and to what extent -- public speakers wrestle with this as they
prepare their speeches.

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fbe8f1d3612b16ac525st02vuc

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 07:41:30PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I don't read Areivim, nor did I attend the Asifa, but the context of
: this statement doesn't really matter too much. But it is a good opening
: to a question which has long bothered me. Namely: Do Chazal or Poskim
: discuss when guzma is appropriate, and when it is not?

I don't know. It might be situational, depending on obvious factors like
when is the audience likely to be moved by the emotional content, when
are they likely to pick up that it's guzma, and when will they think
it's meant literally and reject the message as absurd -- or accept an
absurd message.

But they clearly believed there was a role for guzma. Eg R Mari explains
R' Eliezer as speaking in guzma (Beitza 4a), and it's not meant pejoratively.
Or Eruvin 2b, BM 38a. Or the Tosafos at the top of Shabbos 119a.

Nevu'os are frequently labeled as guzma.

So, I too am curious where the lines are. But they exist, they
aren't zero. And they might simply not be discussed because they're
commonsensical.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 02:51:28PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: They were at such a high level that they resonated to HKB"H's frequency.  (my summary of the Nefesh hachaim)

I think that's more the Baal haTanya's take in Torah Ohr (on parashas
Yisro, "Moshe Yedabeir).

It's a very stereotypical Litvish-Chassidish split.

The Litvak sees the revalation in the avos being able to feel their own
souls, detect that they lacked, and figure out how to resolve that lack.
It's all sheleimus. Aspaqlaria-as-mirror.

The chassid sees revelation in reaching out an pulling down from higher
spiritual realms. Deveiqus beyond the self. Aspaqlaria-as-lens.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?

At 02:57 PM 5/24/2012, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
>From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
>
>I have never received a satisfactory answer to the following question:
>We are taught that the Ovos amongst others observed Torah.
>Obviously the sheva mitzvos b'nei Noach they observed but how did
>they know about the chukim and korbonos, as well as tzitzis, mezuzah,
>tefillin, etc. etc. etc.?

Not all the major rishonim actually held that way (i.e., many held 
that the Avos did not follow the same halacha as Rashi.

See: http://www.tanach.org/breishit/toldot/toldots2.htm

Some even criticize that approach:

http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/sichot/bereishit/11-64vayigash.htm

Here's a 110 minute shiur on it (I have not yet heard it), which 
starts off by saying that pretty much only Rashi (of the rishonim) held that

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/720428/
Rabbi%20Menachem%20Leibtag/What%20Mitzvot%20Did%20the%20Avot%20Keep%20and%2
0Why%20Does%20It%20Make%20a%20Difference

I see R Gil Student wrote, in 2004:

>The Gemara (Yoma 28b) says that Avraham even kept eiruvei tavshilin, 
>a clear rabbinic commandment (cf. Rashi). Some, however, translate 
>that as being the equivalent of ta'aroves tavshilin (mixtures of 
>food) and explain it to mean the biblical prohibition against 
>cooking meat and milk together, which is prohibited through the Oral 
>Torah (as stated subsequently in the Gemara). I believe this 
>explanation is from the Chasam Sofer.
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"Simon Montagu :AIUI the Shavu`ot ketubba originated among talmidei Ha'Ari
in C16 Ts'fat, e.g. R. Yisra'el Najara, as part of (or connected to) the
formalization of Tikkun Leil Shavu`ot."



It's a common habit of the post-Ari Tsfat Kabbalists, and their Hassidic
successors, to manifest images and practice symbols which were previously
limited to the literary plane. This is a good example.

The image of Matan Torah as the chuppa (first?) appears in the end of the
Azhara (First day, Mahzor Frankel, 2000 p. 644 lines 8-11 (end). Even the
image of the Torah as the "ketubat Hattan" appears there. See also, Midrash
Psiqta DR'Kahana 19:4 the mashal of the Ketubbah, (though not in the
context of Sinai). The tiqqun lel Shavuot (including the Tevila at its
climax) is a manifestation of the image in Rashbi's "Tiqqun" (Zohar, intro
8a; in context of Shavuot: Zohar Emor 97b-88a) were the vigil is portrayed
as process of preparing the kallah and escorting her to the chuppa Shavuot
morning.


Dr. Ezra Chwat
Institute of Microfilmed Hebrew Manuscripts
blog: Giluy Milta B'Alma: http://imhm.blogspot.com




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On 23/05/2012 11:20 AM, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote:

>
> In the beginning of Parasha Behuchosai (26:4): "V'natati gishmaychem
> b'itam..."
> What does it mean to say "YOUR rain"?


On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

> Go to Rashi's main source, Toras Cohanim:
>
> Your rain, and not the rain of other countries.  So how can I maintain
> "And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and your
> seed"?  That there will be satiety in Eretz Yisrael and famine in all
> the other countries, and they will come and buy from you and enrich you
> with money, in the same way as it is said "And Yosef collected all the
> money that was to be found in Egypt and Cenaan through the food that they
> bought", and so it says "and as your days shall be your excretion", that
> all the countries shall excrete gold and bring it to Eretz Yisrael.


It's hard to imagine that Israel could really produce enough food to
satiate all other countries today (providing food for Canaan is not the
same as providing for China), but maybe this prompts a new understanding of
what Gishmaychem means. With Israel increasingly seen as a world leader in
technology in general, as well as farming agriculture in drip-irrigation
etc. in particular, Gishmaychem could mean more literally *your* geshem, as
in the technology *you* develop will hit the market at the right time and
through that "all the families of the earth will be blessed."

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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see the very bottom of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty

for the size of EY from Yehada HaMaccabe through Hyrcanus II. Note how
small it is in the early years

-- 
Eli Turkel
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The Yerushalmi states that the rabbis purposely did not give kedushat EY to
Bet Shean so that the poor could eat there during shmitta (for terumot and
maaserot a machloket Rashi and Rambam). In fact Rav Yehuda haNasi had to
overrule others who didnt want to permit it.
It is a machloket among modern poskim (eg CI and Rav Frank) how far Bet
Shean exptends whether some 2000 amot beyond the ancient walls or includes
the entire bet shean valley)

In any case it is clear that Bet Shean was a nonJewish city during its
existence and in the days of Ezra and Nechemia there probably were no Jews
at all in the vicinity to worry about. Only in the days of the Maccabbes
did there start a local Jewish population.
from wikipedia

The Hellenistic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic> period saw the
reoccupation of the site of Beit She?an under the new name Scythopolis,
possibly named after the Scythian
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian> mercenaries
who settled there as veterans. Little is known about the Hellenistic city,
but during the 3rd century BCE a large temple was constructed on the Tell. It
is unknown which deity was worshipped there, but the temple continued to be
used during Roman times... From 301 to 198 BCE the area was under the
control of the Ptolemies <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemies>, and Beit
She'an is mentioned in 3rd-2nd centuries BC written sources describing the
Syrian Wars between the Ptolemid and Seleucid dynasties. In 198 BCE the
Seleucids <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucids> conquered the region.
The town played a role after the
Hasmonean<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean>Maccabee
Revolt: Josephus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus> records that the
Jewish High Priest Jonathan was killed there by Demetrius II
Nicator<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_II_Nicator>
. The city was destroyed by fire at the end of the 2nd century BCE.

Similarly Ashkelon was on the border of EY. Again from wikipedia

According to the Tanakh <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh>, Ashkelon is
one of the cities given to the Jewish people as a heritage. The
Jews<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews>
 of Judea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea> drove the Greeks out of the
region during the Maccabean Revolt <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees>,
which lasted from 167 to 160 BC. The Hasmonean
Kingdom<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean> was
then established, which Ashkelon thereafter became a part of.
So Ashkelon is Jewish only from the Chashmanoim revolt.

Another border city was Acco. Again from wikipedia

The city was captured by Alexander
Jannaeus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Jannaeus>
, Cleopatra VII of Egypt <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra_VII>
and Tigranes
II of Armenia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigranes_the_Great>. Here
Herod<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great> built
a gymnasium <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(ancient_Greece)>, and
here the Jews met Petronius, sent to set up statues of the emperor in the
Temple <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple>, and persuaded him to turn
back. St Paul <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Paul> spent a day in
Ptolemais (Acts 21:7). A Roman
colonia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_(Roman)> was
established at the city, Colonia Claudii C?saris.[*citation
needed<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>
*]After the permanent division of the Roman
Empire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire> in
395 AD, Akko was administered by the Eastern (later Byzantine) Empire.


In summary the EY of Ezra and Nechemia was limited to the environs of
Jerusalem and there would be no reason for them to give kedushat ha-aretz
until acco but not strips around it, to include up to Ahkelon and to
purposely leave out Bet Shean for the poor Jews in the neighborhood. These
were all events that occurred many years later mainly during the
Chashmanoim wars against the neighboring countries and the expansion of EY
especially under Yannai.


-- 
Eli Turkel
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