Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 46

Mon, 21 May 2012

• 1. Re: torture in halacha??? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: L?shem Yichud (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: torture in halacha??? (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: torture in halacha??? (hankman)
• 5. Re: L'shem Yichud (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: L'shem Yichud (Zev Sero)
• 8. Insights Into Shavuous (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Fwd: Rabbi Hershel Schachter - True Freedom (Ben Waxman)

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:08:33PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> and avoidable pain would not be permitted and kept to the minimum
>> possible consonant with the "purpose.". IOW if my "purpose" demands
>> the death but not the pain of the animal, must I avoid the pain?
>
> "Bror lo misa yafa" is derived from "ve'avhta lere'acha kamocha",
> not from tzaar baalei chayim...

But still, it would be absurd to think one may impose tzaar on a
person in a situation where it would be assur to do so to an animal.

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 04:44:06PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Re: shkotzim uremoshim, does it make a difference that insects are
> incapable of feeling pain?  Does it make a difference if you know
> this fact?  Or is the *appearance* of cruelty what counts, since it
> tends to foster a midas achzorius?

LAD, and I've argued this with others on Avodah in the past, even animals
that feel pain can't suffer in the same sense that we do. I pointed
to their lack of ruach memalela, of tzelem E-lokim (and then pointed
to the rishonim and acharonim who define it as bechirah chafshi) and
of ventro- and dorsoomedial prefrontal cortex, and thus deduced there
is reason to belief that animals have no metacognizance. They aren't
aware of their own thoughts. Pain is a negative stimulous which causes
certain responses, but they can't think about their pain or response.
There is pain, but not what we call suffering. There is no "I" in an
animal's psyche warranting our empathy.

Thus I believe that even with apes, it is all about the person habituating
himself as cruel, and not animal suffering.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Yesod: What is the ultimate measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     of self-control and reliability?

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 08:51:42AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://torahmusings.com/2012/05/lshem-yichud/
>
> It is interesting to note that historically, the inclusion of l'shem 
> yichud in the liturgy had been met with some fierce opposition. Rabbi  
> Yechezkel Landau waged a fierce battle to ban the recitation...

He was a misnaged in general, though. He waged fierce battle on each
chassidic innovation. Which makes it hard to deduce if there was something
problematic with this one in particular.

We do say "Shomer goy echad... HAMMEYACHADIM SHIMKHA 'H' E-lokeinu
H' echad.'" Similarly. in R' Saadia Gaon's list of mitzvos, the two
mitzvos of Shema (he counts morning and evening separately) are "ever
vavoqer yacheduhu". We aren't simply stating the truth of His Unity,
we are actually creating a unity. Presumably he also means yichud of
sheim Hashem, since we can't be talking of the Aibishter Himself. Although
this poem isn't in RSG's tchanun (see his siddur at
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20685&;pgnum=83>) In any case,
the concept of yichud hasheim is older than LeSheim Yichud.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Yesod: What is the ultimate measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     of self-control and reliability?

On 5/18/2012 11:29 AM, hankman wrote:
>
> On 16/05/2012 9:10 AM, hankman wrote:
>> Consider the much vaunted annual baby seal hunt. According to you
>> (and me as well), I have a "purpose" - the valuable pelt - but can
>> I now choose either a painful or painless way to obtain the pelt at
>> will? I would think not
> RZS wrote:
> Why do you think not?  How do you square this with the fact that one
> may pluck a pen from a living bird?
>
> CM responds:
> If you only have a living bird available and you need a quill then it 
> is letsorech, but who says that if you have both a live and a dead 
> bird in front of you that you are still permitted to inflict the tzb"c 
> on the living bird - perhaps you would have to use the feather from 
> the dead bird.

But we don't really use "perhaps"s, do we?  Suppose there's a 
qualitative difference between a quill from a live bird and a quill from 
a dead bird.  So that a quill from a dead bird is a poor replacement for 
one from a live bird.  I can't think of any halakhic reason to refrain 
from using the better quality quill just because it causes the bird 
discomfort.

Lisa

R'nLL wrote:
But we don't really use "perhaps"s, do we?  Suppose there's a
qualitative difference between a quill from a live bird and a quill from
a dead bird.  So that a quill from a dead bird is a poor replacement for
one from a live bird.  I can't think of any halakhic reason to refrain
from using the better quality quill just because it causes the bird
discomfort.

CM responds:
Only when you are asserting, but I am only considering the possibility - not 
asserting a certainty (in my mind).

Also, of course if there is a qualitative difference between the quill from 
the live bird and the dead one then this would be letzorech again and use of 
the live bird would be mutar. I assumed there is no such qualitative 
difference in the quill. If that is not the case - then under those 
circumstances I stand corrected.

Kol tuv
Chaim Manaster

Which he lost with his own family, who became chassidim.

Ben
> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 08:51:42AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>>
>> It is interesting to note that historically, the inclusion of l'shem
>> yichud in the liturgy had been met with some fierce opposition. Rabbi
>> Yechezkel Landau waged a fierce battle to ban the recitation...

1) Rav Moshe makes it clear in this tshevua that he is not giving a 
psak, that the entire question is theoretical only.
2) In terms of war itself, he says that there are milchomot mitzvah that 
also require orima v'tumim (like milchemet Amaleik).
3) However he also makes it clear that the state (any Jewish state) can 
wage  a war of defense, like what we fought against the Greeks.

I don't see how you conclude anything definite from this tshuva.

Ben
On 5/13/2012 6:48 AM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
> It is worth noting that it is not at all clear that the wars of Israel 
> today have the status of a Milchemes Mitzvah. See Igros Moshe Choshen 
> Mishpat II:78.
>

On 18/05/2012 1:33 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> In any case,
> the concept of yichud hasheim is older than LeSheim Yichud.

Also "ki yad al keis kah".

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

RSRH's essay Sivan I at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/sivan_1.pdf  gives many 
interesting insights into the nature of what the Judaism and the 
Torah are.  Given that Shavuous will soon be here, you many want to read it.

I looked at Rav Moshe's psak on learning in kollel and taking money 
while learning. He doesn't cite this a heter. RM brings two reasons: we 
pasken against the Rambam or Et La'asot.

Is there any tshuva about army deferrals which cites this Rambam?

Ben

On 5/15/2012 12:12 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 14/05/2012 1:32 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
>> So why didn't the Rambam list this a heter?
>
> He did -- in Hil' Shmita Veyovel. 



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