Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 32

Sun, 06 May 2012

• 1. Brit Mila Statute of Limitations (Liron Kopinsky)
• 2. oven timer (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Re: Since Moshe received the Torah, didn't he know that God would punish him for hitting the rock? (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 4. Re: Since Moshe received the Torah, didn't he know that God would punish him (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. bechukoteihem (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: what is death- what is life? (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 8. Kashrus and genetic manipulation. (hankman)
• 9. Re: bechukoteihem (Ben Waxman)
• 10. HARav Asher Weiss - Metzora 5772: ?Kashrus Verification? (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Keeping a Kosher Kitchen (Prof. Levine)
• 12. tzar baalei chayim?? (Harvey Benton)
• 13. Re: tzar baalei chayim?? (Micha Berger)
• 14. motzei shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Re: oven timer (Saul Guberman)

>
> In another discussion on Areivim the following was said:
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>> If one of the person's chata'im is not circumcising his son, then azivas
>> hacheit would mean circumcising him. No?
>>
>
>  What is the halacha if someone doesn't circumcise their son and only does
> teshuva at a later date? Is there an age (bar mitzvah?) where the father's
> obligation to do the brit is fully removed and the only
> remaining obligation is on the son?
>
> Kol tuv,
> Liron
>


-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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i can't find a source delineating the  following situation.  can one leave 
 food  in oven after licht benching  , let's say at  200 degrees,  and the 
oven timer turns the oven off  about the time one comes home from shul  .
muttar?     blech needed?

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The Torah says that Moshe was punished for a sin that both he and Aaron did
at a specific place. But it does not specify the sin, but it is hidden from
us. I do not believe that it was because of hitting the rock, because Aaron
didn't do that. It cannot be because of his outburst of anger, because Aaron
is the epitome of never doing that. There were other things that they did
together, and there are Midrashim that hint at these. 

But it does bring up a good point that has been addressed, which is that
there were a lot of things that happened, plagues, rebellion, and others.
And had he known the future, one would have expected him to avoid these
pitfalls. I have seen a number of ways of working around this, some more
interesting than others. Saying he wrote things down but without spaces so
he didn't know what he was writing is the least acceptable to me. Saying
that he wrote down everything at the end, or in segments along the way is
more acceptable to me, because it permits Moshe Rabbeinu to have a semblance
of free choice.


---


From: Yaacov Shulman <yacovda...@gmail.com>
To: avodah <avo...@aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Since Moshe received the Torah, didn't he know that
        God would punish him for hitting the rock?
Message-ID:
        <CABmDTUQsa5FnbCStxKEFdPuz+w0yFCY4gJDuqL6aTvsxeqA...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Since Moshe received the Torah, didn't he know that God would punish him for
hitting the rock?

How would you answer this question, please...?

--

 
From: Yaacov Shulman <yacovda...@gmail.com>
Subject: Since  Moshe received the Torah, didn't he know that
God would punish  him for hitting the rock?

Since Moshe received the Torah, didn't he know  that God would punish him
for hitting the rock?

How would you answer  this question, please...?

-- 
Yaacov David  Shulman



>>>>
 

He didn't receive the whole Torah all at once.  The  narrative sections 
that occurred after Ma'amad Har Sinai were  written down piece by piece as they 
occurred. This also explains why he  didn't know what to answer the Bnos 
Tslafchad, what the meraglim would say  before he sent them out, etc.
 
According to Rashi there is a difference of opinion about the last few  
pesukim of the Torah, describing Moshe's death.  One opinion is that he  wrote 
those pesukim just before he died, with tears flowing down his face  as he 
wrote them (obviously, writing the words as Hashem dictated  them); the other 
opinion is that Yehoshua wrote them after Moshe  died.
 
 


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 
 


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<< what defines their's , making  it  their's enough that it's not ours',
and therefore forbidden. >>

Just read an article on covering mirrors at a shiva house. It seems the
first one who mentions it is the Chasam Sofer while it was a gentile custom
around the world centuries before then.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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RCM:

>> You assume that all is mutar unless the Torah specifically forbids it. Is
>> that really so? Is it not just the opposite?
>
How do you give hasra'ah in such a case?

David Riceman

R' Chaim Manaster raised a hypothetical:

> What if we have a case of psik reisha that is breathing and
> whose heart is beating -- would all agree that this person is
> indeed dead?
>
> So for our hypothetical, we have a skilled medical team
> standing by at the guillotine for the execution of a prisoner,
> who immediately and before any serious loss of blood is allowed
> to happen attach the now open vascular system and trachea at the
> neck to a heart-lung machine specially designed for this purpose
> and treat the open wound to prevent infection. The now headless
> person is on "life support" and the body from the neck down
> survives the ravages of "death" and decay and continues its
> metabolic processes -- I assume this is possible and not too far
> beyond our current technology, though I am not really sure (can
> anyone with a medical degree venture an opinion if just basic
> tissue metabolism can actually continue under these conditions
> -- simple tissue and cells clearly can do this in a petri dish
> so why not our hypothetical?). I imagine we would also have to
> feed him intravenously etc.
>
> Would anyone still consider this person (body?) alive, or would
> all agree he is dead? Did Chazal mean even this case too?

Short answer: As I understand it, Rav Moshe Feinstein would hold that person to be dead.

Long answer: Your case seems (to me) to be similar to the case mentioned in Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 2, Siman 174, bottom right paragraph on page 288:

<<< If a person's head was cut off, even though the head and body
are spasming, he has the din of 'meis mamash'. And even if there would be a
way to connect the head to the body so that he would live, there is no
chiyuv to do so even during the week, because there is no chiyuv to revive
the dead, so on Shabbos it would be assur. See Bava Basra 74, where R'
Yehuda says that a certain jewel exists which can revive the dead, even
those who have been decapitated, but HaShem hid it from humanity; see
there. It is pashut that even if HaShem would make it available to someone,
he would not be chayav to revive the dead. The Torah only obligated us to
heal the sick, and even to be mechalel Shabbos, but not to revive the dead.
>>>

It seems like a simple kal vachomer to me: Suppose we had the technology to
reattach the head of the person in RCM's case and bring him back to life.
Rav Moshe says that even in such a case, the person was dead from the
decapitation until the reattachment. If so, he is certainly dead in the
case where they aren't even planning to reattach the head.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fa30e38662d2d537e0st06vuc

R' Chaim Manaster raised a hypothetical:
> What if we have a case of psik reisha that is breathing and
> whose heart is beating -- would all agree that this person is
> indeed dead?
...

RAM wrote:
> Short answer: As I understand it, Rav Moshe Feinstein would hold that
> person to be dead.

> Long answer: Your case seems (to me) to be similar to the case mentioned
> in Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 2, Siman 174, bottom right paragraph on
> page 288:
...
> It seems like a simple kal vachomer to me: Suppose we had the technology
> to reattach the head of the person in RCM's case and bring him back
> to life. Rav Moshe says that even in such a case, the person was dead
> from the decapitation until the reattachment. If so, he is certainly
> dead in the case where they aren't even planning to reattach the head.

The case you report from Igros Moshe says that when the head is off you
do not have to revive him (even if you could) as he is now dead, but it
says nothing about the case where you did proceed to reattach the head and
revived him (techias hameisim) whether you now would be permitted to kill
him with impunity (I think not). Thus, the survival of the body on the
(special) heart-lung machine might still be considered a techias hameisim
of the body from which it might still be assur to harvest organs from,
if that "kills" him now as it would in harvesting the heart and lungs etc.



Here is an excerpt from an article written by Dr. Fred Rosner:

    Ethical and halakhic (Jewish legal) problems associated with genetic
    engineering include speciation. Does a certain species lose its
    identity if other genes are introduced into it? Would the citron
    or etrog (Citrus medica Linn) used on the holiday of Sukkot for
    religious purposes lose its identity if lemon genes were introduced
    into it? How many transplanted lemon genes are needed to consider
    the etrog to be a lemon? Can the rabbinic concept of nullification
    (bitul) be applied to this situation?

    Another example is the need for fins and scales for fish to be kosher
    for consumption. If genes introduced in a scaleless catfish induce
    scalation, does the catfish then become a kosher fish?

I think he is touching on the same issue that troubled me in my previous
posts about the limits of specie change induced thru genetic manipulation.

Also while googling I have found references that the OU and (I think)
OK have gone on record that GM is not a kashrus problem from R. Belsky
and R. H. Schacter. The logic (it was little more than one sentence --
so I am not really clear on what was actually said) was that it was a copy
of the gene from a kosher source (yeast) and thus not an introduction of
"treif" material. I have trouble understanding this logic as it really
begs the real and more difficult issues here. In my mind it was never
the question of mixing a small amount of treif material to the kosher
material, but of following the blueprint to build treif material.

Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster

I wonder how far Rashi himself took his pshat on the phrase. Did he 
dress in French style of his time? Was his house built in a manner 
similar to the French? If he went to a Jewish theater, did they not use 
French entertainment techniques?

There are those who say that if you take rennet and dry it and chemical 
it and process it, than it is no longer treif. How far, if someone goes 
by this Rashi, does one have to go to kasher the theater?

Ben

On 5/3/2012 1:37 AM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
> http://choppingwood.blogspot.com/2012/05/what-is-je
> wish-culture-does-it-even.html
>
> what defines their's , making  it  their's enough that it's not ours', 
> and
> therefore forbidden.....
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 From http://tinyurl.com/d2p4enl

<http://downl
oad.bcbm.org/Media/RavWeiss/Sefer%20Vayikra/Tazriah/Rav%20Weiss%20Tazria%20
5772%20English%20Kashrus%20Verification.mp3>HARav 
Asher Weiss -Metzora 5772: ?Kashrus Verification?    http://tinyurl.com/cdv49o9

Why can?t we rely on eid echad neeman b?issurin 
(one witness is sufficient in cases of ritual 
prohibition) in kashrut supervision? (ironic to 
me ? this was the starting point of R?N Alpert?s 
Z?L response to me when I asked him about a kashrut supervision).

R?AW?s opinion is that eid echad is not a rule to 
neemanut (trustworthiness) but in hanhaga (how to 
act) ? that in case of doubt you can rely on a 
single witness (proofs include there is no testimony and no beit din).

However, over the years the Rabbis make 
fences/judgments (e.g. requiring a ritual 
slaughterer to show his knife). So today (see 
chachmat adam 200 years ago) we don?t rely on 
anyone who has a monetary interest (me ? but then 
what about the agency being paid?).

Then discussion of one of my favorite topics ? 
Chazal and statistics. R?AW says out loud what 
I?ve whispered to my chaburah ? Chazal did not 
engage in statistics! First he discusses why a 
miyut shachiach (normally found minority?) is of 
concern (why not just say rov [majority] is 
sufficient?) ? Perhaps because of concern for 
margin of error. Then on to miyut hamatzui 
(material minority) and the famous 10% rule of 
the Mishkinot Yaakov ? he feels tshuva is 
misread; while it does mention 10% with some 
?interesting? proofs, the conclusion is that it?s 
just about what?s ?common? ? and the real problem 
is defining ?common? in age where a shocheit may 
shecht 100X as many animals in the old days. 
That?s why we steer clear of doubt!!!!! Oy, if only they would ask an actuary?

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hsnewbannersmall


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Author of Halachically Speaking
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Recorder of Policy
Public Relations
Tel- 1- 201-837-0500 ext. 127
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shimshon and? the foxes
setting fire to the? phil-
istines wheat.........
was that allowed?

?
hmz
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On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 12:05:44PM -0700, Harvey Benton wrote:
: shimshon and? the foxes
: setting fire to the? philistines wheat.........
: was that allowed?

We're in a context where Shimshon was allowed to kill Pelishtim, and
you're asking about foxes and ZBC?

ZBC is only when the pain is pointless. Here, it accomplished a military
goal in a way that had minimal risk to people on our side.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

A question that arose this motzei shabbat

In the middle of Maariv motzei shabbat the lights in the shul went out.
options:
1) since it is after borchu - turn on the lights
2) say "boruch havmidil" in the middle of birchot kriat shema and then turn
on lights
3) dont turn on lights until after shemonei esrei which means most people
have to say birchot kriat shema and amidah by heart - if they can

what is allowed - preferable?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 12:23 PM, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> i can't find a source delineating the  following situation.  can one
>  leave  food  in oven after licht benching  , let's say at  200 degrees,
>  and the oven timer turns the oven off  about the time one comes home from
> shul  .
> muttar?     blech needed?


Rabbi Ribiat's sefer on Shabbat, the 39 melachos, specifically says that
this scenario is muttar.  He gives no mareh makamot in that paragraph.  A
blech is not needed.  In the previous paragraphs he mentions that the food
should be cooked before Shabbat starts.  He also has a section on when an
insert (equivalent to a blech for an oven) should be used.

Shavua Tov,

Saul
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