Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 28

Sun, 29 Apr 2012

• 1. Size of Maccabbee Army (Liron Kopinsky)
• 2. Aharon entering the kodesh hakodashim (Eli Turkel)
• 3. the twentieth letter (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Klal Perspectives - Spring 2012 (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Klal Perspectives - Spring 2012 (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: the twentieth letter (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: the twentieth letter (David Riceman)
• 8. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 9. Re: Size of Maccabbee Army (Akiva Blum)
• 10. Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (hankman)
• 11. FW: [Areivim] Ohr LeGoyim (Chana Luntz)
• 12. Re: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: FW: [Areivim] Ohr LeGoyim (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: FW: [Areivim] Ohr LeGoyim (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng? (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Ohr LeGoyim (Akiva Blum)
• 17. Joulies (Prof. Levine)

Does anyone know how large the Chashmonai army was? Also, how small was it
compared to the Greeks?

How does this compare to the Israeli army in 1948 compared to the
collective Arab armies?

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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from Doron Beckerman
<< The idea that Aharon was allowed to enter whenever he wanted if he
followed
the order in the parshah is a Medrash Rabbah. The Gaon said that this
concept explains why a) only the ram is mentioned from among all the
korbanos mussaf of YK, since that ram was needed for Aharon even not on YK;
b) why the pashut pshat of the parshah indicates only three tevilos when
TSBP tells us there were 5. Aharon would follow peshuto shel mikra, while
the five were on YK ledoros. >>

I also heard from REMT (my edit)
<<  the parsha make no mention of Yom Kippur throughout, only "B'zos yavo
Aharon el hakodesh
and only Aharon and not the cohen gadol is mentioned until the end  (2) The
g'mara in Yoma derives the five t'vilos and ten kiddushin from p'sukim and
from a halacha l'Moshe miSinai.

    The answer to the first is the Gra's chiddush that Aharon could indeed
go in whenever he wanted to, provided that "b'zos yavo Aharon el hakodesh."
 The answer to the second is that the five t'villos/ten kiddushin is not a
requirement of kodesh hakodashim entry; for that, three is the requirement,
and the parsha is written in order.  The five/ten requirement taught by the
HlMmS is a din in avodas Yom Kippur. >>

In summary the medrash as expanded by the Gra says that the parsha is
talking about a personal entry by Aharon and only in pesukim 28-30 is the
general story given for all generations.

Though REMT gives a partial answer it is still not completely clear why the
halachot are different between Aharon's personal entry and that of the
Cohen Gadol on YK Le-dorot.
I once heard an answer from RYBS but can no longer locate it,. If anyone
knows it would be appreciated

-- 
Eli Turkel
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At 11:40 PM 4/25/2012, R Micha  wrote:

>When I get a "what should I learn with ..." (typically: Partner in Torah
>or non-frum relative, and typically asked by my father) I am always
>stumped. How do I answer this without knowing the individual? Is there
>a generic answer?
>
>RSRH describes the project that becomes Horeb in the 10th letter. Maybe
>that's a logical continuation.
>
>Or, if it's the Jewish Philosophy aspect, is your son up to the Ramchal's
>Derekh Hashem? Or the first volume of MmE ("Strive for Truth")?

and David Riceman wrote:


><<RSRH describes the project that becomes Horeb in the 10th letter.
>Maybe that's a logical continuation.
>
>   Or, if it's the Jewish Philosophy aspect, is your son up to the
>Ramchal's Derekh Hashem? Or the first volume of MmE ("Strive for Truth")? >>
>
>It's our mussar seder.   So far the book he's resonated best with is the
>Rambam's Shmonah Perakim, but I'm trying to give him an overview of many
>different approaches.

Why not choose something else written by RSRH,  since it seems that 
your son has enjoyed learning the Nineteen Letters?

I would suggest something "not too involved" like The Jewish Sabbath 
which is available for download at no cost at 
http://tinyurl.com/7e27gow   This book is not too long.  It will give 
him a philosophical understanding of what keeping Shabbos is all about.

There is also the Hirsch Siddur which contains RSRH's commentary on 
Pirkei Avos.   You might want to just go through Rav Hirsch's 
commentary on Pirkei Avos with your son or study some of his 
commentary on davening.

YL

Yitzchok Levine 
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R' Micha prefaced:

> I expanded RYL's quote to include the full web page, because I
> feel centrality of this message to this list's mission motivates
> doing everything possible to further discussion.

And I thank you very much for doing so. I tend not skip over the longer
posts here, but the importance of this one must not be underestimated.

 From that article:

> That lack of connection is reflected most dramatically in the
> growing numbers of so-called "adults at risk," i.e., those who,
> at some point in adulthood, realize that they do not know why
> they have been performing mitzvos all their lives, or why they
> should continue to do so. Among younger people, the symbol of
> that lack of connection has become teenagers who text on
> Shabbos. We seek to explore the degree and implications of
> these trends.

I'm not convinced that this is a new problem, nor that it is a growing
one.

If kids text on Shabbos, how much different is that from not davening,
either not going to shul at all, or going to shul but spending most of
one's time in the hallway or playground? For that matter, how different
is it from spending most of one's time in shul, but constantly shmoozing
with friends, or going to the kiddush room for the haftara?

Of course, it is easy to point out that texting is a melacha d'Oraisa
while the others are not, but I think such points are very minor in our
context. The topic at hand is the lack of connection between a person
and his Creator, and all these are symptoms of that same problem.

I am reminded of what Rabbi Haym Soloveitchik wrote in
"Rupture and Reconstruction" (Published in Tradition,
Vol. 28, No. 4 (Summer 1994), and available now at
http://www.bethtfiloh.com/ftpimages/230/misc/misc_35307.pdf)

    In 1959, I came to Israel before the High Holidays. Having grown up
    in Boston and never having had an opportunity to pray in a haredi
    yeshivah, I spent the entire High Holiday period from Rosh Hashanah
    to Yom Kippur at a famous yeshiva in Bnei Brak. The prayer there
    was long, intense, and uplifting, certainly far more powerful than
    anything I had previously experienced. And yet, there was something
    missing, something that I had experienced before, something, perhaps,
    I had taken for granted. Upon reflection, I realized that there was
    introspection, self-ascent, even moments of self-transcendence,
    but there was no fear in the thronged student body, most of whom
    were Israeli born. Nor was that experience a solitary one. Over
    the subsequent thirty-five years, I have passed the High holidays
    generally in the United States or Israel, and occasionally in England,
    attending services in haredi and non-haredi communities alike. I
    have yet to find that fear present, to any significant degree, among
    the native born in either circle. The ten-day period between Rosh
    Hashanah and Yom Kippur are now Holy Days, but they are not Yamim
    Noraim Days of Awe or, more accurately Days of Dread as they have
    been traditionally called.

    I grew up in a Jewishly non-observant community, and prayed in a
    synagogue where most of the older congregants neither observed the
    Sabbath nor even ate kosher. They all hailed from Eastern Europe,
    largely from shtetlach, like Shepetovka and Shnipishok. Most of their
    religious observance, however, had been washed away in the sea-change,
    and the little left had further eroded in the "new country." Indeed,
    the only time the synagogue was ever full was during the High
    Holidays. Even then the service was hardly edifying. Most didn't
    know what they were saying, and bored, wandered in and out. Yet,
    at the closing service of Yom Kippur, the Ne'ilah, the synagogue
    filled and a hush set in upon the crowd. The tension was palpable
    and tears were shed.

    What had been instilled in these people in their earliest childhood,
    and which they never quite shook off, was that every person was
    judged on Yom Kippur, and, as the sun was setting, the final decision
    was being rendered (in the words of the famous prayer) "who for
    life, who for death, / who for tranquility, who for unrest." These
    people did not cry from religiosity but from self-interest, from an
    instinctive fear for their lives. Their tears were courtroom tears,
    with whatever degree of sincerity such tears have. What was absent
    among the thronged students in Bnei Brak and in their contemporary
    services and, lest I be thought to be exempting myself from this
    assessment, absent in my own religious life too - was that primal
    fear of Divine judgment, simple and direct.

R' Soloveitchik's reflections are from over 50 years ago. But we've
seen similar things even longer back. A lack of the "primal fear of
Divine judgment"??? Rav Yochanan ben Zakkai already bemoaned that of
his top students! - "May you have as much Yiras Shamayim as your fear
of basar v'dam."

I hope no one misunderstands me. I do NOT think this to be a minor
problem. It is a very important problem, and I do hope that solutions
can be found and implemented. My only point was to suggest that it is
an *old* problem rather than a new one.

Some might concede that the problem is old, yet point out that the
problem is worsening, perhaps even accelerating. I don't think so. When
I imagine a graph which illustrates our collective devotion over time,
I see a high point at Har Sinai, which dropped off pretty quickly
(as documented in Chumash), and has been falling off ever since --
approaching zero asymptotically, it often seems.

We are discouraged from Tefilas Nedavah, even as a solution to situations
where I was perhaps not yotzay with my prior davening. And why? Because
if I messed up the first one, how much better do I really expect the
second to be?

Yes, there are kids today who text messages on Shabbos, and that is
clearly not a good thing. And in the Mechaber's day, the concept of
beginning Yom Kippur early was so poorly grasped by the women, that when
women would continue eating up until dark, he ruled (O"C 608:2) not to
castigate them, lest they eat b'meizid. Is that any different than our
kids, who don't grasp the importance of avoiding their cellphones on
Shabbos? If there's a difference, I don't see it.

Akiva Miller

Yes, there are kids today who text messages on Shabbos, and that is
clearly not a good thing. And in the Mechaber's day, the concept of
beginning Yom Kippur early was so poorly grasped by the women, that when
women would continue eating up until dark, he ruled (O"C 608:2) not to
castigate them, lest they eat b'meizid. Is that any different than our
kids, who don't grasp the importance of avoiding their cellphones on
Shabbos? If there's a difference, I don't see it.
======================================
IIRC that din does not apply to something mefurash bkra -but then we get
back to the whole electricity thing. In any event the empty observance
issue imho can only be solved on a retail basis with hard work, neither of
which are consistent with the rhythms of modern life where everyone wants a
silver bullet available over the internet.
KT
Joel Rich

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On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 08:35:55PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> It's our mussar seder.   So far the book he's resonated best with is the  
> Rambam's Shmonah Perakim, but I'm trying to give him an overview of many  
> different approaches.

Define how you're using the word "mussar". In what sense was 19 Letters
more "mussar" than hashkafah, whereas Horeb is not? But if you're looking
for a machshavah-esque mussar work, MmE would seem to be the closest fit.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RMB:

<<Define how you're using the word "mussar". In what sense was 19 
Letters more "mussar" than hashkafah, whereas Horeb is not? But if 
you're looking for a machshavah-esque mussar work, MmE would seem to be 
the closest fit.>>

I agree, but he'll get the same hashkafa more tersely from the Sefer 
haKatan, so that's not really a novel alternative.

David Riceman

>To go back to the opening question, notice that every minhag predating
1948 require aveilus from 2 Iyyar to 17 Iyyar. So you can't simply select
a minhag that omits Yom haAtzma'ut, as one would to attend a wedding
made on a day you personally do observe, most years. (A situation I was
in this Rosh Chodesh.)<

     According to a p'sak of RMF, it isn't necessary to change one's minhag
     in order to attend a simcha during the period he is observing the
     mihagei aveilus of s'fira.  The prohibition is against making the
     simcha during the time one's minhag prohibits it.	It is quite common
     to see yeshiva bochurim with s'fira beards at weddings during the
     post-Pesach days of Nissan.

     This p'sak does not mean that one can attend a wedding done on, e.g.,
     10 Iyar, which no minhag permits.	In that case, it is not only the
     attendance, but rather the affair itself, which is a violation, .	 As
     for attending a wedding on Yom Atzma'ut, if one holds that there is a
     halachic right to permit it, then one may attend even if he himself
     keeps the restrictions (against shaving or listening to music) on that
     day.  But if his opinion is that we lack the authority to permit the
     restrictions, then it is the equivalent of a wedding on 10 Iyar,
     rather than of 26 Nissan -- a day prohibited by halacha, not by one's
     specific minhag in the observance of that halacha, and he would not be
     permitted to attend.

EMT

On 26-Apr-12 12:07 PM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Does anyone know how large the Chashmonai army was? Also, how small 
> was it compared to the Greeks?
>
> How does this compare to the Israeli army in 1948 compared to the 
> collective Arab armies?
>

See Rashi vezos habrocho 33:11. There were 13.

Akiva

Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng?

Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster

Worm turns sheep clone to "good" fat
http://www.montrealgazette.com/technology/scie
nce/Worm+turns+sheep+clone+good/6509350/story.html 
[or <http://bit.ly/IYNIhT>. I also trimmed RCM's citation. -micha]

Chinese scientists have cloned a genetically modified sheep containing a
"good" type of fat found naturally in nuts, seeds, fish and leafy greens
that helps reduce the risk of heart attacks and cardiovascular disease.

"Peng Peng", which has a roundworm fat gene, weighed in at 5.74 kg when
it was born on March 26 in a laboratory in China's far western region
of Xinjiang.
...
Du and colleagues inserted the gene that is linked to the production of
polyunsaturated fatty acids into a donor cell taken from the ear of a
Chinese Merino sheep.

The cell was then inserted into an unfertilized egg and implanted into
the womb of a surrogate sheep.

"The gene was originally from the C. elegans (roundworm) which has been
shown (in previous studies) to increase unsaturated fatty acids which
is very good for human health," Du said.
...

RET writes on Areivim:

>If one looks at the meforshim it seems that neither is right. Both Ibn Ezra
and Radak interpret the phrase as being a light to the nations but the
>meaning is not that Israel is a light to the nations but rather that
Isaiah's prophecies will be a light o the nations when they see they are
fulfilled.
>So it has nothing to do with Jews being in exile serving any purpose.

Well it seems to me that that is not the full picture.  While Rashi, on 42:6
says that goyim can mean shvatim, so that (presumably) the idea is the
Isaiah is a light to the tribes of Israel and indeed Radak does, as you say,
on 49:6 say that it is Isaiah himself and Isaiah's prophesy that will in the
future be a light to the nations when they see that such prophesies are
fulfilled.  But on the other hand on 42:6 Radak says:

 ...??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ??? ?????
???? ??? ?????,...:

"And so you would be also l'or goyim like it says "And nations shall walk
to/in your light -v'helchu goyim l'orech" [Yeshiyahu 60:3 - where it is
pretty clear that it is the nation Israel being talked about] and the light
is the Torah that shall go out to them from Tzion."

And Metzudas David on 42:6 says
???? ???? - ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??' ??? ??????:
L'or goyim - to light the eyes of all the nations to know that Hashem hu
haElokim.


And indeed I think that it is the other pasuk quoted by the Radak, ie
v'helchu goyim l'orech that is the one that is the real source for the
common understanding which is usually labelled as Or l'goyim.  That pasuk is
quoted all over the place (unlike l'or goyim), for example in dozens of
places in midrash raba, tanchuma, pesikta d'rav kahana etc  And a lot of the
commentary in the various midrashic sources involves analogies between the
shemen zayis that lights the Beis HaMikdash and Yisrael who lights the world
-eg Shemos Raba which goes on to say and so our fathers were called zayis
because they gave light to all with their emunah.

That is, to my mind, the concept which we understand to be or l'goyim is
unquestionably there in the sources - it is just generally drawn from a psuk
that is much more of a mouthful (Yeshiyahu 60:3).  L'Or goyim, does, it
would seem according to all the classic commentators, mean a light to the
nations, as we would understand it, but, at least on one of the two pasukim
where it is used, it is understood as referring to Isaiah himself, not the
Jews in general (but note that it is clearly a good thing, and high praise
of Isaiah, that he should be considered this).  And, as so often seems to be
the case (and as discussed with tikun olam) the phrase which tends to roll
off the lips in the common parlance is not the strictly correct biblical
terminology, but the one that sort of sounds right to the ear of the
layperson to get to the concept of which they are aware.

Regards

Chana

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 6:48 PM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:

> **
> You'll pardon me if I don't accept a mistranslation on Wikipedia.  
> Look up those pesukim, please, and let me know what you find.  In Hebrew.
>
> Lisa
>
...
>
> At 11:06 AM 4/20/2012, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
> Actually, if you can find me a place where the phrase ohr l'goyim 
> exists in Tanakh, I'll send you $20.  Standing offer.  The actual 
> phrase is l'ohr goyim.  Which means nothing about us being a light 
> "unto" anyone.  Among the darkness of the nations, we shine brightly.
>
--
Eli Turkel

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 09:45:19AM -0400, hankman wrote:
: Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng?

There are no halakhos about eating something based on its genetic makeup.
Peng Peng, like all sheep, chews her (?) cud and has split hooves. Kosher.
No?

And I don't think anything microscopic, like the genes injected into a
cell is within the scope of halachic discourse altogether.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

Backing up a bit, the underlying argument doesn't rest on the meaning of
leOr Goyim, and its contrast with the popular misquote Or laGoyim, because
Yeshaiah makes the point being attributed to the words elsewhere.

"Ki miTzion teitzei Torah."

Appears twice in Tanakh, Yeshaiah 2:3 and his slightly younger
contemporary, Mikhah 4:2. (I mention "slightly younger contemporary" to
tease someone who knows of a different dating to spawn a thread about it.)

Both pesuqim begin "Vehalkhu goyim rabim, ve'ameru: Lekhu vena'aleh
behar H'..." The pasuq we say during hotza'as seifer Torah is about the
day when the nations acknowledge our having the Torah and the Word of G-d.

...
: That is, to my mind, the concept which we understand to be or l'goyim is
: unquestionably there in the sources - it is just generally drawn from a psuk
: that is much more of a mouthful (Yeshiyahu 60:3)...

No, the mouthful is Yeshayahu 51:16. <grin>

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

On 27/04/2012 10:58 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Backing up a bit, the underlying argument doesn't rest on the meaning of
> leOr Goyim, and its contrast with the popular misquote Or laGoyim, because
> Yeshaiah makes the point being attributed to the words elsewhere.
>
> "Ki miTzion teitzei Torah."

If I understand RLL's point correctly, it rests precisely on that
distinction.  "Or lagoyim" implies that the purpose is for the nations,
and our job is to bring them light.  Thus RYL's claim that this means
we have to go to them.  Whereas "Le'or goyim" focuses the sentence on
us; rather than us being a light *for* them, it is they who (if they are
wise) use us as a light.  If you walk at night and pass by a house with
a bright light in front, you may stop and benefit from the light, but it
wasn't put there for that purpose; it was put there for the benefit of
the residents and their visitors, and your benefit is an externality, as
the economists call it.

Since the pasuk is talking about Yesha'yahu anyway, the distinction
isn't that relevant; Yesha'yahu certainly didn't go to chu"l and
deliver his words to other nations.  But the other pesukim cited,
"vehalchu goyim le'orech" and "ki mitziyon teitzei torah" are both
in line with "le'or goyim" rather than "or lagyoim" as RLL seems to
understand the terms.

The source I would cite against RLL is not from Tanach at all but from
the gemara: "Israel was only exiled among the nations in order that
geirim be added to them".  (Indeed, this is one explanation given for
why geirim are "as difficult for Israel as a sapachat": it's their
fault that we're in galut, just as a lost hiker is responsible for the
efforts that the rescue team undergoes.)

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 27/04/2012 9:45 AM, hankman wrote:
> Any opinions on the kashrus of Peng Peng?

What's the hava amina that he should be forbidden?  He has simanei tahara,
and was born from a dam that had the same simanim, as did her dam and
her grand-dam all the way back to one of the original ewes that Hashem
created.  Some of his great-great-aunts and -uncles were brought on
the Mizbeach.  So why should he be anything but a beheima tehorah?


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 27-Apr-12 11:55 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> The source I would cite against RLL is not from Tanach at all but from
> the gemara: "Israel was only exiled among the nations in order that
> geirim be added to them".  (Indeed, this is one explanation given for
> why geirim are "as difficult for Israel as a sapachat": it's their
> fault that we're in galut, just as a lost hiker is responsible for the
> efforts that the rescue team undergoes.)

So, as long as we have a plentiful supply of the nations in Israel,
there's no need to go looking for them elsewhere.

Currently, it's about 25% of the population.

Akiva

To be honest I had never heard of joulies until I 
read an article about them in the latest issue of 
The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society. 
This article is available on the Internet at 
http://www.crcweb.org/Sappirim/Sappirim%2023%20(Mar%202012).pdf

The following is from the article.

Two inventors came up with an interesting product
that they called ?Joulies? (pronounced ?Joo-lees?).
Each Joulie looks like a 2 inch-long stainless steel
coffee bean and is filled with a proprietary material.
The material inside the Joulie is designed to absorb
heat that is more than 140? F and then
release that heat when the surrounding
area cools below 140? F. Consumers are
supposed to put Joulies into their coffee
mugs so that the Joulies will quickly cool
the coffee to a drinkable temperature;
then as the coffee cools the ?magic
beans? release their heat and thereby
maintain the temperature of the coffee.
This article will address a number of
questions (kashrus, Shabbos, and others)
that are raised by this product.

See the above URL for the rest of this article.

This item is for sale on the Internet.  See, for 
example,  http://www.joulies.com/
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