Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 26

Wed, 25 Apr 2012

• 1. learning Tanach (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Korbanot before the mishkan (Ken Bloom)
• 3. Re: two fictional sects (David Riceman)
• 4. Re: Korbanot before the mishkan (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: learning Tanach (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Current Kashrut Issues of Fish (Prof. Levine)
• 7. two fictional sects (David Riceman)
• 8. the twentieth letter (David Riceman)
• 9. Rabbi Isaac Breuer on Rabbi SR Hirsch (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Music on Yom Haatzmaut (Liron Kopinsky)
• 11. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier)
• 12. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (Allan Engel)
• 14. Re: The Origins of the Non-Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread) (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (Zev Sero)
• 17. Liluy Nishmas my father Rabbi Yitzchok A"H B"R Eliezer Tzvi Zeev Sheyichye Zirkind (sholom zirkind)
• 18. Re: Music on Yom Haatzmaut and Lag B'Omer (harchinam)
• 19. achrei mot - entering kodshei kosahim (Eli Turkel)

<< What I found interesting in the story was that even a "moderni" like RAL
feels that TN"K can't/shouldn't be learned on its own, but only within
the framework of TSBP. >>

What is interesting is that the top of learning Tanach in religious circles
is Machon Herzog associated with Har Etzion.
While the teachers there all know and many teach Talmud nevertheless they
(and their magazine Megadim) centers on new approaches to studiying Tanach.
The leaders of this group were more R. Breuer z"zl and R. Yoel Bin-Nun.
Though they all knew chazal they have emphasized more pshat based on a wide
knowledge of Tanach rather than medrashim of chazal.

I have never been able to attend their Tanach "yemei iyun" which I
understand is attended by thousands, I have been told that the main
attractions are more people like R. Meidan, R. Bazak etc and not RAL.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 08:33 +0300, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Where there any Korbanot brought by the Jewish people after we left
> Egypt and before we had the mishkan?
> 
> 
> The closest I can come to a proof is from Yitro, but that depends on
> the fact that a) he came before the building of the mishkan, which is
> not at all clear, and b) he was Jewish when he brought his sacrifices.

Both olot and sh'lamim are brought at the time of matan torah, at the
end of parshat Mishpatim (Shemot 24:5). The gemara in Chagiga 6a refers
to both of these as being "lifnei hadibur". Rashi there explains that
this means that these were offered on the 5th of Sivan, and Hashem spoke
to us and gave us the Torah on the 6th of Sivan.

RMB:

<<I am saying the Benei Baishanim, after they left Beis She'an to go 
from being the Baishanim to the Benei Baishanim, no longer were 
following the minhag hamaqom of Beis She'an.>>

You need to reread the gemara.  It starts "Bnei Bayshan nahug ..." so 
your distinction between "Baishanim" and "Benei Baishanim" is 
untenable.  Furthermore the Rivash (#399 -- if you have the Mechon 
Yerushalayim edition its the second column on p. 606 -- alternatively 
it's cited by the Beis Yosef at the end of YD 214) says explicitly that 
the children of Benei Bayshan were still living in their parents' city.

Furthermore I found an AhS (vol. 9 YD 214:32) who says that you lose 
your city's customs after you've travelled 2000 amos away with the 
intention of moving elsewhere, and don't gain new customs until you 
enter within 2000 amos of your destination.  He doesn't cite a source 
but I'd guess Darkei Moshe YD 228:18*** citing the Mordechai.

As I mentioned before, the one possible partial source of your opinion I 
found is the Ran (Tshuva #48 - partially cited in BY YD 228 [p.467 in 
the Mechon HaTur HaShalem edition, otherwise look near the Darkei Moshe 
I cited above]).  He distinguishes between normal minhagei Ha'Ir and 
Heramim (particularly Herem d'Rabeinu Gershom), which "akarkafta 
d'gavrei rami".  It's not obvious to me (and it's a machlokes aharonim) 
whether he thinks this applies only to a man who married his first wife 
in a place where HdRG is observed or not.  Even if not, it's not obvious 
to me how it could apply to someone who was born elsewhere.  I know 
where my grandparents were born, but I have no idea where my ancestors 
were in the eleventh century when RG enacted his herem.  Even in the 
Ran's time HdRG was 250 years old.

Nonetheless you might want to check out the teshuva (the BY's citation 
is minimal, so it's worthwhile to dig up a copy of Tshuvos HaRan).

David Riceman

On 22/04/2012 1:33 AM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Where there any Korbanot brought by the Jewish people after we left Egypt and before we had the mishkan?

The korbanot at Har Sinai.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 4/22/2012 3:52 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> What is interesting is that the top of learning Tanach in religious 
> circles is Machon Herzog associated with Har Etzion.

RAL actually disapproves of some of the teachings that goes on at 
Herzog. While he approves of using method of literary criticism, he 
doesn't accept the idea of looking at figures in the TN"K "b'gova 
einayim". They are koferim b'TN"K k'TN"K (deny the idea of qedusha, of 
grandeur).

Ben

Please see http://tinyurl.com/7nn3su8

RMB:

<<A similar case is in the Y-mi Peschim 4:1 26a. R' [Ab]ba said that 
Benei Maisha excepted upon themselves not to cast their nets in the 
Mediterranian. They then settle Israel's west coast, and so they ask 
Rebbe if they could continue fishing, or if they were bound by this too? 
Rebbe answers:Mikivan shenahagu bahen avoseikhem be'isur. al tishnu 
minhag avoseikhem. (Reish Laqish then asks why it isn't assur because of 
lo sisgodedu, but R' Yochanan answers him.)>>

This is also a misreading of the gemara.  The fishermen in Tveria (I 
imagine they were fishing in the Kinneret) had the custom of not fishing 
with nets on Hol HaMoed.  Several Rabbis objected, and they wanted to 
undo the minhag.  The gemara proposes as a hypothesis that they could 
move to a new place to undo the minhag, and then objects based on the 
story of Bnei Maisha.

Bnei Maisha had the custom of not starting a boat trip Wednesday through 
Friday.  Their children wanted to overturn the minhag.  The gemara 
proposes as a hypothesis that they can't because the minhag is a neder, 
and then says well, why can't they do hataras nedarim.  The gemara says 
it should even be easier to do hataras nedarim on their parents neder 
(see Lieberman's explanation of why in HaYerushalmi KiPshuto ad. loc. 
v'timtza nachas).

The conclusion of the gemara is that it's not a custom not to start a 
sea voyage, it's a halacha.  The unstated conclusion (k'darko shel 
haYerushalmi) is that the analogy to the fishermen of Tveria is invalid.

Notice that the fishermen's children are not mentioned.  You might try 
to posit an argument between the Bavli and the Yerushalmi based on the 
hava amina that it should be easier for the children to do hataras 
nedarim, but how does that strengthen your claim?

The Pnei Moshe and the Korban HaEdah understand the discussion of Lo 
Sisgoddu as referring back to the Mishna, not to the fishermen.

Me:

<<But I don't know of any mechanism which enables me to require my kids to
adopt a practice without their consent...>>

RMB:

<<In which case, how can someone be born Jewish?>>

This is also neder shel rabim, but the rabbim are Klal Yisrael, not a particular town.  "Kiymu v'kiblu hayehudim aleihem v'al zar'am ... v'lo ya'avor."

David Riceman

I've been learning Rabbi Hirsch's 19 Letters with my 14 year old son. 
We're almost done, and it's time to decide what's next.  My tentative 
plan is to start the Sefer HaKatan from Kelm next, but I welcome 
alternative suggestions.  Any age-appropriate ideas?

David Riceman

Please see http://tinyurl.com/862jo6p

According to Breuer

His [RSRH's] achievement was the "re-conducting" the Jewish people 
into its own history- the aim of which is no other than the 
establishment of the Divine state."

Hirsch's vision is a renewal of the ancient proclamation of the 
Divine sovereignty over Jerusalem and new Jewish individual  with a 
new many sided derekh eretz under the sole rule of divine precept for 
the coming divine state.

See the above URL for more. YL
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Does anyone have a list of sources that deal with listening to/playing
music on Yom Haatzmaut when it is on 5 Iyar as well as when it's nidche?

Thanks,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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I have been meaning to ask but have forgotten until Liron's question 
reminded me - very similarly, what is the source that it is ok to listen 
to and play music the night of Lag B'Omer.

While the Shulchan Aruch does not actually say anything about music 
during Omer, the issues it does talk about are nahug until Lag or Lad 
b'omer by day, and not the night before. So, why is music different?

kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

---------



On 24/4/2012 6:28 AM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> Does anyone have a list of sources that deal with listening to/playing 
> music on Yom Haatzmaut when it is on 5 Iyar as well as when it's nidche?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- 
> Liron Kopinsky
> liron.kopin...@gmail.com <mailto:liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:56:31PM +0300, Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier wrote:
> While the Shulchan Aruch does not actually say anything about music  
> during Omer, the issues it does talk about are nahug until Lag or Lad  
> b'omer by day, and not the night before. So, why is music different?

While Ashkenazim get married on Lag baOmer, Sepharadim do not get married
until after Lag laOmer. (Which might be why the day goes by a name with
"ba-", as per the original minhag Ashkenaz, rather than the Sepharadic
"la-".)

Anyway, RAM posted to mail-jewish in the 1990s a list of 12 different
shitos about when to mourn during omer. I took his research, ran with
it on Avodah (the original discussion was pre-Avodah) and produced
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/05/mourning-during-omer-2.shtml>. I
dropped one of the Biur Halakhos' 3 opinions, because the BH himself
says it's hypothetical and no one holds by it. So, there are 11 shitos.

You'll notice that there are shitos which have LB as a day of mourning,
those that do not, and those that only mourn in the evening. Of the shitos
listed in the IM, only one requires mourning on LB and he personally
pasqened against following that custom (*), one has no mourning on LB,
and the others are evening only.

(* I didn't say "minhag", because unlike a minhag, the same IM says you
may switch year to year.)

To go back to the opening question, notice that every minhag predating
1948 require aveilus from 2 Iyyar to 17 Iyyar. So you can't simply select
a minhag that omits Yom haAtzma'ut, as one would to attend a wedding
made on a day you personally do observe, most years. (A situation I was
in this Rosh Chodesh.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

I an invited this year to a wedding that will take place besho'o toivo
umitzlachas on Wednesday evening, ie 32nd going into the 33rd of the Omer.
There is a reception scheduled for 7pm, and the chupa is due to take place
after sunset at 8.15. Some may find it incongruous that most men will be
dancing to music at a wedding while exhibiting signs of aveilus on their
faces.

ADE

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> While Ashkenazim get married on Lag baOmer, Sepharadim do not get married
> until after Lag laOmer.
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On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 05:51:43PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The Origins of the Non-Jewish Custom Of 'Shlissel Challah' (Key Bread)
> by Shelomo Alfassa

His argument is quite weak. He shows how keys were sometimes made
in Xiological shapes -- crosses or in threes. He doesn't prove this
was common, or that doing so with religious intent is. He also shows
that baking bread in the shape of a cross is common, particularly for
Easter. (Which is why my children's childhoods omitted the Mother Goose
rhyme "Hot Cross Buns".) And from there leaps to Jews making challah at
a time close to Easter (the first Shabbos after Pesach) in the shape of
a key. Meanwhile, he also mentions that Jews already had a custom of
ladder-shaped challos, implies it is likely what morphed into this
custom, and yet *that* doesn't even have the two-step connection to
crosses he started out with.

He quotes me about reverse engineering a reason for a minhag, but
I never said that such things were uncommon or wrong for minhagim.
What I said was:

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol25/v25n384.shtml#06
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 09:02:06AM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
>: Does this not all sound very much like reverse engineering or drawing the
>: target after having shot the arrow?

> Yes it doesa. Taamei hamitzvos are lessons drawn from halakhah -- very
> much after the arrow is shot. One doesn't darshen halakhah from the
> taam. It might be useful as a factor when choosing between two shitos or
> sevaros. But only one formal halachic process actually "shot the arrow"
> and the question is still unresolved.

I'm actually LAUDING the search for taamei hamitzvos even though they
are post-facto and didn't necessarily motivate the din. (And therefore
can't be used to modify the din.)

And <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n067.shtml#03> (from a
thread launched by RYL's raising the same topic last year):
> Sourdough is hard to come by this week, as it takes over a week to
> ferment. The other source of yeast frequently used before the Fleishmans
> figured out how to isolate it is barm, a sideproduct of making bear.
> But barm has more yeast and is more reactive than they were used to,
> and would make softer more floury bread than sourdough. Most metals kill
> yeast, although stainless steel doesn't. So they put a piece of metal
> into the challah to kill some of the extra yeast off.

> Then, once people did it, they reverse-engineered kavanos for the
> practice.

Here he cites a totally different theory about the origin of schlissel
challah, and passes it off as though I agreed with him!

In any case, his real campaign isn't about the title, but about the
spread of hunting for segulos to get what you want out of G-d rather
than ana avda deQBH and bitachon that what we get in response to doing
His Will is what He wants us to get.

And on that I would agree. IMHO, it is all talui on kavanah. Are you
trying to engage in theurgical magick, or is it simanei milsa, like
on RH, for the time between Chag haAsviv and Chag haQatzir, when this
year's crops start coming in and one is thinking about paranasah?

After all, the gemara says (Taanis 2b) that hashgachah WRT parnasah
is described in EY as being the fourth "mafteiach" that HQBH doesn't
share with a shaliach. And R' Yochanan (himself in "Maaravah") subsumed
parnasah under mafteiach shel geshamim. But either way the metaphor is
of a key to Hashem's otzar of parnasah. So, connecting keys to parnasah
isn't newfangled.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:26:04AM +0100, Allan Engel wrote:
: There is a reception scheduled for 7pm, and the chupa is due to take place
: after sunset at 8.15. Some may find it incongruous that most men will be
: dancing to music at a wedding while exhibiting signs of aveilus on their
: faces.

It is also problematic, even among Ashk, to assume that the aveilus
ends at sheqia rather than alos.

Still, I *think* that's a problem for the person making the wedding,
not the attendees. I'm reminded of something R' Dovid Lifshitz kept on
reminding me the day of my wedding, before the chuppah. "Fasting today
is a minhag. Simchas chasan vekalah is a deOraisa. If you feel a need to
eat, eat!" (I was too wired up to feel hungry anyway.) I would *guess*
that RDL would similarly tell people invited to a chasunah during the
omer that the mitzvah in attending far outweighs the minhag.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

On 24/04/2012 5:56 AM, Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier wrote:
> While the Shulchan Aruch does not actually say anything about music
> during Omer, the issues it does talk about are nahug until Lag or
> Lad b'omer by day, and not the night before. So, why is music different?

Who said it is?  I've never heard that those who follow the SA's psak
that the avelut continues until the morning, and who include music as
one of the things not done during the avelut period, start having
music from the evening.  Those who have music for the entire 33rd (and
don't during the avelut period) also suspend all other avelut practices
for the entire 33rd, and therefore don't say tachanun at mincha of the
32nd.

The basic issue is what Lag Ba'omer is about.  If it's merely the last
day of avelut for R Akiva's talmidim, then it's like the last day of
shiv`ah, and starts shortly after sunrise.  And there's no call for
real simcha, just the end of avelut; one doesn't usually go dancing
when one gets up from shiv`ah.  It's just a bit of a simcha relative to
the previous period.  But if it's the simcha of Rashbi, then it's a day
of positive simcha, and starts, like all festivals, from the evening.

And tachanun at mincha depends on when the next day's holiday starts.
Tachanun is omitted one tefillah before the start of any day on which
it is omitted.  For most holidays that means mincha; but for those that
start in the morning, the previous tefillah is maariv, when there isn't
a tachanun anyway.


R Micha wrote:
> Anyway, RAM posted to mail-jewish in the 1990s a list of 12 different
> shitos about when to mourn during omer.  I took his research, ran with
> it on Avodah (the original discussion was pre-Avodah) and produced
> <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/05/mourning-during-omer-2.shtml>.

The first shita is listed as that of the Ari, but it's a mistake; the
Ari says not to cut the hair for the entire sefirah until erev Shavuos,
but it has nothing to do with avelut per se.  It's about preparation
for Shavuot, and therefore applies even on days when there is no avelut,
and will presumably apply even when Moshiach comes.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

[Post accepted from non-member for obvious reasons. -micha]

Rabbi Yitzchok Zirkind OBM was devoted to the study of Torah and
particulerly halacha. One particular area of Halacha that was close
to Rabbi Zirkind's heart was the study of Hilchos Shabbos. On Shabbos
afternoon, at the Shabbos table, Rabbi Zirkind would read from the
"39 Melochos" by Rabbi Dovid Ribiat, a four-volume set on Hilchos Shabbos.

In memory of Rabbi Zirkind, please join together with his family to carry
on his legacy at your own Shabbos table. We invite you to take on this
collective commitment to read a halachah each week at the Shabbos table,
whether from the 39 Melochos set, or from another book on Hilchos Shabbos
(or any other area of Halacha).

> I an invited this year to a wedding that will take place besho'o toivo
> umitzlachas on Wednesday evening, ie 32nd going into the 33rd of the Omer.
> There is a reception scheduled for 7pm, and the chupa is due to take place
> after sunset at 8.15. Some may find it incongruous that most men will be
> dancing to music at a wedding while exhibiting signs of aveilus on their
> faces.
>

Well, my daughter was married on Lag B'Omer and the only problem that we
faced was that our wedding was a very litvishe and sefardishe wedding
because almost all of our chassidishe friends were in Meiron for the
evening by the kever of Rashb"i. :-)

We did not have any "incongruousness" and no one seemed to be doing too
much mourning instead of rejoicing before the chassan and kallah. I do not
remember the sources that were quoted in support of having a wedding on Lag
B'Omer along with the customary one-man band [the wedding was in
Yerushalayim] but others who are wiser than I can certainly supply them I
am sure, because they do exist.

*** Rena
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The GRA learns that the parsha in Achrei Mot is talking about Aharon who
could enter the kodshei kodashim anytime

Does anyone know where this Gra is discussed
I also seem to recall that RUBS had an addition which I also cant find
any help is appreciated

-- 
Eli Turkel
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