Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 23

Wed, 18 Apr 2012

• 1. Re: nidche (Harry Maryles)
• 2. Re: nidche (Micha Berger)
• 3. Nidche (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 4. RSRH on Av HaRachamim (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Particles of flour cannot become Chamets (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 6. Re: What does "Redemption/Geulah" mean? (Daas Books)
• 7. WHO MUST LEARN IT ALL? (David Wacholder)
• 8. Re: When do princes say shema (David Wacholder)
• 9. Re: Particles of flour cannot become Chamets (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: What does "Redemption/Geulah" mean? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Eretz Yisrael and the Roots of Ashkenaz (Micha Berger)

I used to think that Yom Yerushalyim was a more important day than Yom
H'Atzmaut. And that those who say Hallel on the latter should certainly
say it on the former.

I asked my Rebbe, RAS?about this and he told me that he said Hallel only
on YhA. That Israel came back inot the hands of the Jewish people after
2000 years was a far more signifcant event than the return of Jerusalem.

As for miracles, I'm sure there were plenty to go around in both wars.

HM

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 01:11:26PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I asked my Rebbe, RAS?about this and he told me that he said Hallel only
: on YhA. That Israel came back inot the hands of the Jewish people after
: 2000 years was a far more signifcant event than the return of Jerusalem.

In previous incarnations of this thread (which must bore or frustrate
the non- and anti-Zionists of our chevrah), I expressed my instinct that
there was one major way in which YY was more significant than YhA.

One cannot compare the state of kiruv before the 6 Day War with that
after. Kiruv wouldn't be a movement today had we not recaptured Y-m.
The resurgance of Jewish Pride and the feeling that we were witnessing
something truly momentus motivated a search for tradition that did
not occur in 1948. (It being the 1960s and then early 70s, a time when
spirituality and finding a cause was part of the zeitgeist didn't hurt.)
While I think that's self evident, for people who would prefer to have a
gadol's word for it, see "Bein Sheishes leAsor" and "Or LaShav" by RSWolbe
-- collections of lectures he gave in the year or two after the '67 War.

Religious awakening is something in common with Chanukah and Purim,
other days of Hallel.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

Nissim don't necessarily happen on one day. Those who see the hand of God
in the creation of the State of Israel can point to many days and many
events; the issuance of the Balfour Declaration, the voting on the
partition plan, the declaration on 5 Iyar, the armistice and I'm sure many
more.  But one day had to be chosen to stand for all of these events, and
the day chosen was the day the People of Israel declared to the world that
the first Jewish state in 2000 years was being established. Something
meaningful happened that day, but what we celebrate extends far beyond that
specific event.  Could other dates have been chosen? Sure.  But I wonder if
those who quibble about the choice of 5 Iyar feel the same (if they are
Americans) about July 4th which commemorates an event that occurred years
before the American victory over the British and the creation of a true
USA.  

Joseph Kaplan
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Av HaRachamim was written in the late eleventh or early twelfth 
century, after the destruction of the 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews>Ashkenazi communities 
around the Rhine River by Christian crusaders during the 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade>First Crusade.

RSRH has written what is in my opinion a most moving and insightful 
essay about this period and this prayer.  See 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/Iyar_III.pdf

The following is from this essay.

Yes, an entire world had joined together to drag the spirits of our
fathers down into the dirt of sensuality and baseness, attempting to
transform them into the most self-seeking, unprincipled people,
degenerate because of their misery and their distress. And still they
remained the nation most receptive to all humane, godly and pure
ideals. Still they remained the people most capable of cheerful self-sacrifice
for these ideals.

They were able to soar lightly, in the manner of eagles, above all
the grime and misery of the earth. From their spiritual nest amid the
high rock they were able to expunge all elements hostile to their feelings
of morality, spirituality and serenity. And they had the wisdom to
preserve the pure strength of their spirit and mind unmarred and
unbroken for the most ideal life that is granted to mortals.

"They were stronger than lions!" They had the courage to defy the
whole world for the sake of the truth which lived in them. They, the
scattered, unarmed, most insignificant, and most defenseless handful
of people had the courage to constitute a perpetual living protest
against the convictions cherished by the rest of the world. They had the
courage to bear the fury of an entire population gone mad. And what
is more, they had the courage and the strength, the lion-like strength,
to remain loyal to their convictions despite all the threats of violence
and all the enticements to stray.

Truly, our era is quite unaware of what courage and power of self-control,
what lion-like strength being a Jew entailed in our fathers'
times. Our era does not realize that the sword dangled every moment
over the heads of our fathers, and that the naming torch hovered
threateningly over their dwellings. With every step that they took in
this world, mockery and threats greeted them.

Our generation does not realize with what sacrifices their fathers
purchased the privilege to be Jewish. Few are aware of the price, so to
speak, at which they purchased every mitzvah which they practiced,
and kept far from every aveirah. In the archives of the nations are
found the so-called documents dealing with Jewish rights. Within the
motley contrivances of these documents, designed to place constraints
upon Jewish existence, each form of madness surpasses the next. They
are the copious, unintentional testimonies to Jewish courage, the
voluminous record of Jewish triumph. They are the documents, too
numerous to count, which unintentionally extol a tenacity, an energy
and strength, a lion-like courage and loyalty to duty, such as no other
nation on earth has ever exhibited.
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Rabbi Meir Rabi asked:

> Can anyone assist understanding the Shaarei Teshuva 460, who
> says that even those who will not soak a whole Matza during
> Pesach will nevertheless use Matza meal since only a blob of
> flour can become Chamets. When pulverised throughout the meal
> the same flour particles cannot become Chamets.

Offlist, RMR showed me that this Shaarei Teshuva can be found in printed
editions of the Mishna Brurah, on page 118, in the section in square
brackets, beginning 11 lines from the bottom in my edition.

I think he explains himself in the last four lines there, especially the
third line from the bottom, beginning with "v'af al gav": "Even though we
are makpid on the chimutz of one grain of wheat in water, even if it is a
small grain, or even half a grain..."

I've always thought that the shiur of chametz is a mashehu. But he seems to
hold that the shiur for chametz is half a grain or so, and two or three
particles (he calls them "garinim") of flour are below that shiur.

I agree that particles of flour (sometimes I call them "dust") are
extremely tiny, but still larger than a mashehu. Perhaps he rejects the
idea of taking the word "mashehu" literally. (It is similar to what I once
heard, that if only one posek says something, it can be ignored; you need
TWO poskim for it to be a "daas YACHID".)

But that's only my guess. He does mention (7 lines from the bottom) that
the "Dvar Shmuel" said something similar, but he's not really quoting it as
a source. The real source, it seems, is his own common sense, as he wrote
(four lines from the bottom, after the full stop) "v'nireh b'chush".

I hope this helps!

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f8e14582266b5de6cbst01vuc

>> We have ... five terminologies of redemption mentioned in the
>> Torah in regards to our Exodus. V?Hotzaisi- I will take you out,
>> V?Hitzalti- I will save you, V?Goalti- I will redeem you,
>> V?Lokachti- I will take  you, V?Haveisi- I will bring you (to
>> the land).
> 
> That much seems to be universally acknowledged. The only dispute of which I'm
> aware is whether or not "v'hevesi" has already occurred or is to occur in the
> future, and whether or not we should have a fifth kos corresponding to it at
> the current time. But this discussion is about the meaning of Redemption, and
> all five words are part of that discussion.

See GRA on this part of the Haggada. He states that vlakachti and vaiter are
already post-ge?ula. I.e., v?goalti is the final, ultimate g?eula, because
now you are out. 

Ahh, but you ask, that only leaves 3! The GRA answers that v?ga?alti counts
for two. And his proof is ingenious, you have to see it for yourself.

Skip to Dr. Maimon's Prescription at the end of the post. .

Rambam's Hakdamah - is actually the basis and infrastructure of Hilchos
Talmud Torah. Without connecting the two, neither one is readable. Put them
together and many passages in both suddenly become coherent and alive..


   1. Title Pasuk  - Tehillim 119-6, Then I will not be embarrassed when I
         am examining deeply all of your Commandments - HOW does the upcoming
         recital of facts connect to that?
         2. [Body] The [written] commandments were given with their [orally
         transmitted] explications. He commanded us to do the Torah
with its [oral]
         details and practices.
         3. ...line ten - the explanation of the details and meaning [Moshe
         Rabeinu was not allowed to write] Mosheh did not write it,
rather he taught
         it and commanded them to [keep it whole and not add or subtract]
         4. To the [70? ] elders to Yehoshua and to all of Israel
         5. The oral commands/explanations of written commands, Those you
         you shall be careful to do - do not add or subtract to any of
teh oral ,
         were one large entire Body of Law, forbidden to add or
subtract FROM THE
         ORAL LAW.  (up to ilne 13 in Shabtai Frankel ed. Sefer Hamada volume)
         6. And this is why it is called Orally Taught Law.
         7. Line 14 - despite its unwritten [only orally taught] Moshe
         taught ALL OF IT in his court TO 70 ELDERS
         8. [Although] all three - Elazar Hakohein and Pinchas ben Elazar
         and Yehoshua learned the [entire?] Oral Torah from Moshe -
         9. Still to Yehoshua who was specifically his Talmid - Special
         student o fMosheh the teacher of us all - - he specifically
gave Yehoshua
         "Achrayut" duty of of the Oral Teaching and specifically
adjured him to
         carefully watch over it.
            1. Column 2 line 23 - Shmaya and Avtalyon "Geirei hatzedek" and
            their courtr accepted from...and Hillel and Shamai and their Courts
            accepted from them

===    Each generation has one person, or two people or 70 people whose job
it is to teach the entire Torah to the next generation. Fact - it cannot be
written!! So how does it survive for one generation much less for 3600
years and counting? Who is the guard who must learn it and keep it?

            There is no specific person appointed from birth!! Rather -
each father brings up every child to become Moshe Rabeinu or Yehoshua. Each
person then takes responsibility for as much of the Yedias Hatorah as is
his ability at the moments. Even Moshe did not absorb it in one huge
swallow - he learnt it piece by piece, and may have needed the spaces
between Parshyas.

             Just as Moshe received whatever level he needed to stand on
Har Sinai 40 days and forty nights - just so each potential Moshe Rabeinu
or Yehoshua - will receive whatever help they need. Hillel's daily routine
of working the time necessary to earn the bare minimum, spending the
discretionary portion on Talmud Torah, that drive to become "MIMAATIKEI
HASHEMUAH" was not unique to Hillel only.  The dut is on every man, young,
old,  etc.

          The entire Torah - the indispensable instructions - must be
learnt, redacted from mistakes and errors, and then given over to the next
generation. The obligation - is as universal as the potential. Nobody is
"less than equal" - all must step by step approach becoming the Gadol hador
- in Rambam parlance Maatikei Hashemuah.  The One Big Man who is crowned
like Yehoshua - earned it by "the sweaat of his brow" did not relinquish
the Tent of Moshe rabeinu.  He let no law escape his hearing.

            This "universal draft" and "Maamad Har sinai" generated epic
journey - is the obligation of every single person. The father is in best
position to orient the child and initiate his journey, and if th eson
 learnds the entire Torah - That is a specific detail.

            Klal uprat, or in parlance "Tzurah v'chomer" - to the Rambam
the Hakdama is the "acceptance of the Mission of the burden of the Call -
for the entire Yad Hachazakah.  One can envision him,  first putting the
hakdamah as part of Hilchos Talmud Torah, then putting the whole thing into
the Hakdamah, then deciding to split the pieces - the Klal at the Preface -
and the operational details in Hilchos Talmud Torah.

           Important details include - the break when you hit Chapter one
paragraph 12 - after Stage One you are put on Maintenance - fewer hours
repeating the Laws he heard and absorbed from his teachers, and more time
generating brand new insights and deeper novel connections.


From PRESCRIPTION PAD OF
 MOSHE BEN MAIMON, DOCTOR OF SOULS:

Study and memorize each Written Law along with its Oral Law instructions.
 Continue and do not stop until you have learnt and remember all 613
Mitzvot. Then reduce review to one third of the day. The other two thirds -
study how they fit together adding novel insights.

Repeat process as often as needed.

May we all arrive there on Atzeres - Shavuos coming soon - all agree that
the Mitzvah of enjoying the material pleasures - "Lachem"  is binding.
 We have no time to idle away. By  the end of Sefiras HaOmer - we have
little choice but to complete the entire Torah.  Then for one third of the
day we will review what we learnt..


Looking forward to Yom Tov!
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   1. Zev - I glanced in RAAVAN - in the new edition Part 2 of Deblitsky -
               included in bkumecha is the entire process of morning
hygiene. Included in
               Resting is everything after a normal laborer comes home
for the night. That
               is why Kohanim come to eat their Trumah is relevant. I
would then closely
               read the Raaviyah.
               2. Sliding latitude scale - 30 degrees north is where normal
               people live - Eretz Yisrael or Florida. as we close in
on the Arctic
               Circle,  people keep their eight hours of rest, but the
sun rises at wildly
               different times according to the seasons. Salmas Chaim
suggested that the
               Zman cannot fight the people - when it is the unanimous
feeling of all. Pri
               Yitzchak did not use this svara.
               3. Sliding scale on schar after sunrise -  the more you are
               part of the day renewal experience the more you get
schar! The more of the
               day is gone - the more "the sun was just up there".
You get less
               inspiration and less schar. After half the morning,
arguably the most used
               time of the day - You are in a different time zone - a
whole different wave
               length - so you missed it. AO interest is the geonim on
saying Shma the
               fourth hour, or until chatzos,  or all day.
               4. According to several angles, women are also obligated in
               Shma, despite its time based status. Kontresei Shiurim
- Rav Gustman - on
               Eino Mtzuveh v'oseh - says it becomes like Maariv
amidah for men - a
               "general obligation" rather than a localized specific
one. It can be
               overcome by unusual circumstances.
               5. He also proves that once they do the Mitzvah - its Kiyum
               has full status.
               6. IMHO - if you heard Birkat Kohanim from one "uncalled"
               Kohein- the Kuyum is complete. The penalty for not
doing it is what is
               different.
               7. The standard "they accepted upon themselves with a
               personal neder making it a chiyuv" never became
comprehensible to me.  At
               best it becomes like Lo sisgod'du.




Message: 6
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:01:26 -0400
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When do princes say shema
Message-ID: <20120416210126.GD40...@aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 09:59:20PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> While I'm on the topic of things that have puzzled me for a long
> time, can someone please explain when princes are supposed to say
> shema?

Perhaps the kings and princes who wake up at the very end of the time
range aren't the Jewish ones? We're just looking for the normal time
range for waking up -- not necessarily the normal time for people who
say Shema wake up.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
David Wacholder
Cell: 917-742-7838
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net
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On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 01:08:58AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: I've always thought that the shiur of chametz is a mashehu. But he
: seems to hold that the shiur for chametz is half a grain or so, and two or
: three particles (he calls them "garinim") of flour are below that shiur.

When I saw the ST, I *assumed* he was talking chemistry, not shiurim. One
wet grain of wheat can't leaven (neither chimutz nor even sirchah). Even
if ambient yeast turn some of the carbs in the wheat into CO2 and alcohol,
there isn't the ability to make a bubble of dought around the CO2.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 07:33:15PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: Thank you for those links, but from my perspective, they're very much
: about Emes, while I didn't see too much about Geulah....

My argument was that both the process of revelation of Emes, the return
from galus haShechinah, and the final ge'ulah are both described as
"Vehayah Hashem leMelekh al kol ha'aretz..."

And as I noted:
:> Rav Hirsch places the "ge'ulah" in the same family as [yud
:> ayin lamed] (to progress), ...
:> Our definition can thus be phrased as "a process for the
:> ultimate revelation of truth."

So, both ge'ulah is the endstate (or perhaps asemptote) of a progression,
as is revalation of truth, and both reach culmination in the same pasuq.
I therefore identified the two. I didn't say you had to, just that to me
it seemed reasonable.

: My problem with this is that ge'ulah always appears in context of being
: the redemption of a group or of an individual...

A person's ge'ulah is when he can get a peek through the "anan va'arafel
sevivav" and instead "ba'amud anan yedabeir aleihem".

Thus, the complete ge'ulah after galus Mitzrayim was the Sinaitic
Revelation. (Complete with anan there too...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:10:50AM +0200, R Arie Folger wrote on
the thread titled "Text for Bittul Chametz":
:                               ...The prayers, at least in Ashkenaz,
: are very much influenced by teh sources of Ashkenaz, which is much
: more Eretz Yisrael than Bavel. In reality, in Ashkenaz, we don't
: pasken like the Bavli, but like Minhag Ashkenaz, which is rooted in
: the Yerushalmi, the Pessikta and other such works, as Rabbenu Tam and
: Rabbenu Yitz'haq Or Zarua' wrote. So in the liturgy, for instance the
: Haggadah, Yerushalmi Aramaic might dominate occasionally.

: However, as the Bavli became the dominant learning text (and
: Ashkenazim like the Ba'alei haTossafot began reinterpreting the Bavli
: occasionally to make it confirm to Ashkenaz, which could then claim to
: be rooted in the Bavli, too), the poskim would naturally rather quote
: it.

This is something RRW would bring up with some frequency. And RAF also
cited Ta-Shema's "Minhag Ashkenaz haQadmon" in the past.
http://aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=A#ASHKENAZIM%20AND
%20SEPHARDIM

The depiction of the Baalei haTosafos is not one I would embrace, though.
You make it sound like they set out to fit the Bavli to Ashkenaz. I would
have instead suggested that they had a tendency to assume the absence of
a machloqes. Given the belief that the Bavli has importance just because
it is Chazal's final work and halakhah kebasrai, and the belief that
minhag Ashkenaz can't be entirely wrong this stance is natural.

Related to the question of how strongly this minimalist stance toward
such machloqesin is justified would be the issue of how well R' Ashi,
Ravina and the savoraim had access to the Y-mi. Not just the mesorah
that the Y-mi is a snapshot of, or cross-fertilization by Amoraim who
traveled between EY and Bavel, but the work iself.

The primary "project" of Tosafos is to make the gemara internally
consistent. I don't have a source for that, but it seems to me to
be self-evident to even a beginner -- the overwhelming majority of
Tosfoses are about finding a peshat that is consistent with what the
gemara says elsewhere. Not about questioning the naive peshat solely
because it is at odds with our practice.

Now if you add to that an approach that assumes a minimum of machloqesin
between the Bavli and the sources of Ashkenazi pesaq, and it is
unsurprising that Tosafos will often end up using Askenazi practice as
the "kasuv hashelishi yachria beineihem".

That's very different than saying they set out to align Minhag Ashkenaz
and shas as a project in and of itself. There are very few examples of
that across the entire corpus, not enough to call that a primary theme.
I can think of:
    1- mayim acharonim,
    2- not learning shelish bemiqra ushelish bemishnah,
    3- clapping on Shabbos,

and where Tosafos explicitly tell you "anu somekhin al sefarim chitzonim
umeinichin gemara shelanu" (to quote the first example), ie that they
couldn't resolve the sources:

    4- taking the tzitzis off the talisos of meisim (Pesachim 40b "aval
       asahu")

    5- our haftarah for RC Av that falls out on Shabbos (ibid)

    6- our qula (hil' tereifah) WRT counting scabs on lungs (Chullin 46b
       "Hainu Ribisayhu", although I'm looking at the end on 47a)

    7- quoting Rashi, we rely on Rabbeinu Gershom and R' Qlonimus ish Romi
       on assuring the results of melakhah on YT rishon the entire YT
       sheini shel galios rather than the gemara's bikhdei sheya'asu
       (Beitza 24b)

Last, I am being careful in calling Ashk a mix of EY and Bavel -- or perhaps
more precisely Roman and Persian Empires -- rather than emphasizing the
EY component. While the latter is more natural when speaking of breaks with
the pesaq in the Bavli and thus only looking at the differences from Bavel,
I do not think Sepharad's connection to Bavel is any weaker than Ashkenaz's.

Syrians, who are Edot haMizrach but from the Roman Empire (and genetics
confirms that they are closer to Ashk than other Seph and EH), would be
an interesting test case.

Rabbeinu Gershom Meor haGoah is said (Maharshal, Chida and others)
to have studied under R' Hai Gaon, thus linking him to Bavel. (Even
if this link turns out to be mythical, it still shows enough consistency
of concepts between the geonim and RGMH to make the claim plausible.)

OTOH, the Rambam's mesorah from R' Hai Gaon is via:
    R' Yaaqov ben Nissim and R' Chushiel
    Rabbeinu Nissim Gaon (R' Yaaqov's son -- not a "gaon" in the
    Babylonian academy sense of the word) and Rabbeinu Chananel
    (of Rome, with some connection to Tunisia)
    R' Yitzchaq al-Fasi (of Fes, "the Rif")
    R' Yosef ibn Migash ("the Ri miGash")
    R' Maimon
    R' Moshe ben Maimon

If you consider how often the Rambam and the Rif disagree, that chain
doesn't anchor him to Bavel any more than the Ashkenazim are.

For that matter, the Rambam wrote a Rif-like work on the Y-mi -- "Hilkhos
haYerushalmi" (a fragment of which was found published by Leiberman in
1947). And it seems that he held like named shitos in the Y-mi over the
stam Bavli.

The Kesef Mishnah shares Tos' stance about assuming a lack of machloqesin
(Hil Geirushin 13:18), saying that even a dochaq peshat is more likely
than assuming an argument between the Y-mi and Bavli. And it's Rabbeinu
Chananel, the Rashba, the Ritva, etc... who we see quoting the Y-mi far
far more often than the Ashkenazim.

So, overstating the matter as though we were speaking of clean lines
rather than vague tendencies can be misleading. Again, natural when the
topic is explaining the cases where the Bavli and Ashk differ, so that the
entire scope of the conversation is one where the tendency is confirmed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?


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