Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 14

Wed, 04 Apr 2012

• 1. Kof-K Halachic Journal for Pesach 5772 (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Allan Engel)
• 3. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Liron Kopinsky)
• 4. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not (Liron Kopinsky)
• 7. early maariv (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Stopping Saying Mashiv Haruach (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. CM and shul (Eli Turkel)
• 10. pikuach nefesh (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: CM and shul (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: pikuach nefesh (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Theoretical and Real Shiurim (Micha Berger)
• 14. Taam Matza vs Zerizin Makdimin (Liron Kopinsky)
• 15. Re: Taam Matza vs Zerizin Makdimin (Micha Berger)

Please see http://tinyurl.com/7btq6de to download this publication.    YL

The Gemoro says that the status of mamzeirim and 'avodim will not be
divulged le'osid lovo, I can't see why this would be different.

ADE


On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> How would they hold bizman beit hamikdash (sheyibane bimheira beyameinu)?
> Would they require people to present certification that their mila was done
> correctly before joining with their korban?
>
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On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:13:30PM -0600, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> : Would they require people to present certification that their mila was
> done
> : correctly before joining with their korban?
>
> I presume they would say kohanim relied on chazaqah. Much the way we
> don't worry about the lishmah of a sefer Torah, or "rov metzuyim
> eitzel shechitah mumchim heim."
>

What percentage of milas are done with metzitzah bapeh today?
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: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>wrote:
:> How would they hold bizman beit hamikdash (sheyibane bimheira beyameinu)?
:> Would they require people to present certification that their mila was done
:> correctly before joining with their korban?

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:19:15PM +0100, Allan Engel wrote:
: The Gemoro says that the status of mamzeirim and 'avodim will not be
: divulged le'osid lovo, I can't see why this would be different.

Except that WRT mamzeirim, we have "kivan shenitma, nitma" -- a unique
principle that has no parallel for areilim.

This is the first I heard of avodim. And not sure why it would be
necessary -- any eved ivri would have to have been bought ("leased"
may be more accurate) within the past 7 years anyway. It's not something
easily lost, and if forgotten, not long relevent.


On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 04:15:02PM -0600, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
:> I presume they would say kohanim relied on chazaqah. Much the way we
:> don't worry about the lishmah of a sefer Torah, or "rov metzuyim
:> eitzel shechitah mumchim heim."

: What percentage of milas are done with metzitzah bapeh today?

It was 100% during bayis sheini, and if their pesaq wins over Sanhedrin,
or ours is proven to be based on ta'us and doesn't need a Sanhedrin to
be finally dead, it would again be 100% in bayis shelishi.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 3/04/2012 3:39 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I am saying the people who insider on metzitzah bepeh believe that
> a circumcision without metzitzah is not a beris milah. The boy, even
> bedi'eved, is an areil.

Is there really anyone who holds that?  All the sources I'm aware of
seem pretty clear that bediavad peri`ah is me`akev, but metzitza is not.
It says "mal velo para` ke'ilu lo mal", but it never says anywhere that
"mal velo matzatz ke'ilu lo mal", implying that bediavad the boy is not
an `arel.

This does not imply that metzitzah is not part of the mitzvah.  On the
contrary, the Rambam's lashon strongly implies that it is.  But it's
like tzitzin she'einan me`akvin; they must be cut, but if they weren't
there's no need to redo the milah.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> : What percentage of milas are done with metzitzah bapeh today?
>
> It was 100% during bayis sheini, and if their pesaq wins over Sanhedrin,
> or ours is proven to be based on ta'us and doesn't need a Sanhedrin to
> be finally dead, it would again be 100% in bayis shelishi.


So would everyone who didn't have metzitzah bapeh require hatafat dam bris?
What if there is no way to find out what ones mohel did?

Kol tuv,
Liron
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I received a notice from where I will be for seder (Revava)
mincha: 17:25 followed immediately by kabbalat shabbat and maariv
first cup at seder not before 19:21

-- 
Eli Turkel
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R' Liron Kopinsky asked:

> In Israel, we start saying Mashiv Haruach 2 weeks after Shmini
> Atzeret to give the people who made Aliya laRegel an opportunity
> to return to their homes.
>
> Why don't we stop saying Mashiv Haruach 2 weeks before Pesach
> for the same reason?

You are confusing Mashiv Haruach with Tal Umatar. Everyone begins Mashiv
Haruach on Shmini Atzeres, but in E"Y and in Chu"l. Tal Umatar is where the
differences are, beginning on 7 Cheshvan in E"Y, and 4-5 Dec in Chu"l.

But if the question would be rephrased for Tal Umatar, it would stump me.

> My presumption is that it has something to do with the need for
> a public hachraza on both Shmini Atzeret and Pesach to notify
> people that the change is happening (either now or in 2 weeks)
> and that can't work retroactively from Pesach to Rosh Chodesh
> Nissan.

I see two problems with that: (1) How effective is an announcement that
we're going to make a change 2 weeks from now? Heck, the gabbai announces
"Yaaleh V'Yavo!" on Rosh Chodesh, and far too often I forget about it in
less than three minutes. (2) Even if you'll insist that the 2 week delay is
not a problem in Eretz Yisrael, surely you'll agree that the time from
Shmini Ateres until December does constitute a problem for those in Chu"l.

I'm sorry that I have no answers to offer. But I hope you get some answers
from someone else, because just a few months ago (http://www.ais
hdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n242.shtml#06) I posted some very similar
questions here, and got no responses. :-(

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f7bced7ccb9c29d7013st05vuc

<< I assume that if they had a contract or other stipulated agreement, that
would be the primary if only factor for deciding who can do what in the
shul. (Not having such an agreement seems irresponsible to my naive eyes,
but ok.) In the absence of such an agreement, does the caterer have a right
to remove flyers or the like? >>

Reminds me of a recent shiur by Rav Zilberstein (that I gave over in my
shul).
One question that he discussed was a rule in his shul that one had to
arrange the parsha for one's son's Bar Mitzvah a year ahead of time to give
the gabbaim time to make arrangements.

One member "woke up" a month before and found out that the shabbat was
already taken. He complained to R. Zilberstein who backed the gabbaim. The
member insisted that R. Zilberstein go to Rav Elyashiv (must have been
right before he went to the hospital). R. Elyashiv paskened that the
gabbaim have no right to make such a rule at the expense of a member and
that a lottery should be used.
Then came a discussion as one of the bar mitzvah boys was a cohen. R.
Zilberstein went back to Rav Elyashiv who said that a cohen has no special
rights and again insisted on a lottery.
(end of story the original family left the shul)

When I said this in my shul the participants were very upset at R.
Elyashiv's psak as bringing chaos into running a shul.
In any event R. Elyashiv paskened that not every rule in a shul is valid
when it infringes on the rights of members.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<< On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 02:41:26PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: Walking home from shul I mentioned this thread to a prominent Rov
: in town, (not named as I did not ask if I could quote him publicly on
: this) he responded that for pikuach nefesh there is no lower limit
: -- mephakchin olov es hagal if there is the SLIGHTEST chance the
: man is still living -- without concern for the issur Shabbos...

I do not believe anyone means "slightest" literally, if they thought
about it. Try posing to this "prominent rav" (I have anonymity!) the
comparison I did: Is it assur to cross the street? Is it assur to let
our children cross the street -- or must we cross them until they get
old enough to move away?  >>

R Elyashiv shlita paskins one is mechallel shabbat if the chances are
1/1000 or greater,

-- 
Eli Turkel
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R. Elyashiv paskened that the gabbaim have no right to make such a rule at the expense of a member and that a lottery should be used.
Then came a discussion as one of the bar mitzvah boys was a cohen. R.
Zilberstein went back to Rav Elyashiv who said that a cohen has no special
rights and again insisted on a lottery.
(end of story the original family left the shul)

When I said this in my shul the participants were very upset at R. Elyashiv's psak as bringing chaos into running a shul.
In any event R. Elyashiv paskened that not every rule in a shul is valid when it infringes on the rights of members.

--
Eli Turkel
----------------------------------------
Yes, but doesn?t the shul (or its duly elected representatives) have a right to make rules?
KT
Joel Rich
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R Elyashiv shlita paskins one is mechallel shabbat if the chances are 1/1000 or greater,

--
Eli Turkel
---------------------------------------------
It seems that 1/1000 is the halachic definition of not existing- I wonder if this might be the basis for us not so frumers using tap water on pesach.
KT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 03:06:31PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: As already discussed to death repeatedly on Avodah, the CC did not
: measure out his own shiurim at the seder....
: Which leads me to ask... Do we know if the CI followed his own shiurim
: lemaaseh, or did he measure matzah by thinking "well, that's certainly
: at least as much as my father" -- the Kosover Rav -- "would have eaten"?
: Was he more of a textualist than the CC?

I think my question frustrated RDBannett, since he answered this question
for us in the past.

From 29 Sep 99 <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n019.shtml#05>:
    The Hafetz Hayyim's cup not meeting the Hazon Ish's revi'it may be a legend...

As I noted, I since confirmed that it was true.

                                                                       It
    is almost certainly not a legend that the kazayit matza that the
    Hazon Ish used at his seder, as witnessed by R' Hayyim Kanievsky, was
    approximately half of the kazayit he lists in his Kuntress Ha-shiurim.

    This was published (in Moriah??) quite some years ago and was quoted a
    few years ago by Prof. Avi Greenfield in his article on the relation
    between the beitza and kazayit (it might have been in Tehumin). If
    somebody insists, I can probably find the exact source by searching
    in my piles of paper or, probably, much easier, get it by telephoning
    to Prof. Greenfield

And on 1 Apr 2000 <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n476.shtml#03>,
he wondered why we needed to repeat the topic, but since we did,
RDB added what he hadn't realized at the time was a lot more detail:

    ...
    Although the kazayit matza shi'ur given by the the Hazon Ish in his
    Kuntres Hashi'urim is 33 cc., R' Hayyim Kanievsky, who attended the
    Hazon Ish's seder, said that the Hazon Ish gave out a kazayit of about
    17 cc. R' Hayyim states also that his father, R' Ya'akov Kanievsky,
    used a similar size.

    I have lived through an era of change. I remember when the kazayit
    was given as 1/3 of a machine matza. A few years later it was up to
    1/2 matza. Today, or rather the last few times I heard, it seems to
    have stabilized at one whole machine matza. As the kazayit has gone
    up, the eating time limit, kedei akhilat peras, has gone down from
    9 to 4 to 2 minutes. I failed in my attempts to find a mathematical
    formula for the non-linear automatic compensation factor.

    I remember too that I posted in the past a reference to Prof. Avi
    Greenfield's article on the kazayit - beitza relationship which also
    lists and has diagrams displaying the various shitot in kazayit size.

    From my summary of Prof AG's article:
                                                Volume  Diameter

        R' Hayyim Volozhiner                     3 cc    4.6 cm (1.8")
        (K'zayit shel yamenu)

        Hazon Ish, lema'aseh                    17 cc   11 cm (4.3")
        (as per eidut of R' H. Kanievsky) 

        R' Avraham Hayyim Na'eh                 27 cc   14 cm (5.5")

        Hazon Ish (lefi Kuntres Hashiurim)      33 cc   15.3 cm (6.0")

        Mishnah Brurah                          60 cc   20.6 cm (8.1")
        (k'beitza shel yamenu)

    The approximate diameters given are for a circular shaped hand matza
    with a thickness of 1.8 mm (11/64").

    I think there is much to learn from the Chatam Sofer's chumra as
    stated in the Hagadat Soferim.. He would take the two zeitim of
    matza, hold them close to his mouth and then make the berakhot. He
    then inserted the two zeitim bit by bit into his mouth but did
    not swallow. He chewed each bit and then moved it into his left
    cheek. When the two zeitim were all in his left cheek, he swallowed
    the entire two zeitim at one time.

    I'd like to see anyone put two chewed whole machine matzos into
    his left cheek. I don't think a pelican could do it. If the pelican
    could fit them in, he might still choke when swallowing all at once.

And similarly a number of other iterations, but 2000 appears to be the
most full version.

Interestingly enough, all this means is that while theory is out of line
with historical zeisim (not that I think the shiur needs to be constant
over the generations), actual practice until the mid-20th century was
actually more in line with the evidence!

Tying in another thread:
The question is not, as RDBHaim put it, bringing halakhah in line with
reality. (Something I question deeply.) Rather, it's bringing sifrei
halakhah in line with toras imekha / toras umasekha / minhag yisrael /
mimeticism combined with evidence that minhag conforms to Chazal more
than the sefrei halakhah do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

Does anyone know where I can find a discussion on why we have to have the *taam
korban pesach* stay with us at the end of the *seder*?

As a related aside, the Ramban on the Haggada says that the *chacham *asks
a good question when he says "*Ma haavoda hazot lachem*?" What he is asking
is, "We believe in general in *zerizim makdimin l'mitzvot*, so why aren't
you hurrying to eat the *korban pesach*? Is this avodah not important to
you?" And we answer him that there is a special *din *by the *korban
pesach*that we
*davka *have to eat it last and *al haSova* and therefore cannot rush to
eat it.

Kol Tuv,

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 09:53:37AM -0600, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
: Does anyone know where I can find a discussion on why we have to have the *taam
: korban pesach* stay with us at the end of the *seder*?

Pesachim 119b-120a.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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