Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 6

Wed, 28 Mar 2012

• 1. Avakesh: Avos 2:15: Personal prayer and personal Service (Micha Berger)
• 2. Soft Matza (Meir Rabi)
• 3. Why is it necessary to Kasher counters/workbenches for Pesach? (Meir Rabi)
• 4. Re: bal tosif (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. TEVILAS KEILIM-- LET?S DO IT RIGHT! (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: From Galut to Geulah (Micha Berger)
• 7. Kashering New Pots for Pesach (and all year round)?! (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: [Areivim] Kashrus of Imported Chocolates (hankman)
• 13. Re: Leading Charedi Posek Says metzitza' Should Not Be Done Orally (Zev Sero)

Posted on Avakesh blog by "M L".

-micha

    Avos 2:15: Personal prayer and personal Service
    Mar 26, 2012
    by M L

        Rabbi Shimon said: Be careful with the recitation of the Shema
        and the prayers. When you pray, do not regard your prayers as a
        fixed obligation(keva) but rather as [the asking for] mercy and
        supplication before G-d, as the verse states, 'For gracious and
        merciful is He, slow to anger, great in kindness, and relenting of
        the evil decree' (Joel 2:13). Do not be wicked in your own eyes."

    The emphasis on not making one's prayer into a "fixed" obligation
    seems to conflict with the entire institution of prayer with its set
    times, requirement for a minyan and communal nature. It underscores
    to what extent the shift to the individual had taken hold by the
    time of R. Shimon. He was not the only one.

    Mishna Brachot, 4:3-4 and Talmud Brachot, 29b
    """""" """""""" """"" """ """""" """""""" """

    Prayer is no longer something that is a substitute to a sacrifice
    and a public activity, where showing up is the person's main
    contribution. Now it requires the individual to put in inwardness
    and sincerity. This is also underscored by the verse that R. Shimon
    chooses as proof. Undoubtedly his audience immediately grasped
    that in context, this verse speak of a public gathering and a
    fast. Although R. Shimon could have brought an almost identical
    verse from Jonah, he chose the verse in Joel instead. This was, I
    conjecture, to highlight the shift in meaning from the communal to
    individual nature of prayer. Compare the two verse and their context.

        R. Eliezer says, if one makes his prayer "fixed" ("Keva"),
        it is not considered a supplications.

    What is "keva"? Rabbi Jacob ben Idi taught in the name of Rav Oshiya:
    Anyone whose prayer is like a heavy burden on him. The Rabbis taught:
    Whoever does not say it in the manner of supplication. Rabba and Rav
    Yosef both taught: Whoever is not able to add something new into it.

         "Even now," declares the Lord, "return to me with all your heart,
         with fasting and weeping and mourning." Rend your heart and not
         your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious
         and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he
         relents from sending calamity (Joel 2:13).

         He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when
         I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to
         Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God,
         slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from
         sending calamity. (Yonah 4:2)

     Which would have been a more appropriate verse about prayer unless
     you were making a point?

     Finally, R. Eliezer points out that one should not suffice with the
     public participation in a ritual but in private never pray. 'Do
     not be wicked when alone". Being a part of righteous nation is
     great but it is not enough. Prayer is individual and an individual
     must pray, with passion, with his own unique and elevated heart,
     even when alone.

I manufacture soft Matza that keeps fresh for months. The local rabbis are
not happy.
I would appreciate any thoughts.

here is a summary, more can be found www.realmatza.com

Soft Matza is the only way to understand the Seder where we remember Hillel
and his Korech, because Korech is not a sandwich. The word ?Korech? means
roll up; rolling up the Matza with meat of the Pascal Lamb and the Marror,
within it.


When I began researching soft Matza, I was surprised to discover that soft
Matza was ubiquitous until at least 1770, i.e. our grandparent?s
grandparents were eating soft Matza. (BaEr HeiTeiv 1730 - 1770)


I also discovered that without a single exception, the Talmud, the Poskim
(Halacha authorities) and all commentators, down to our ?modern?
authorities, identify Matza as a soft, pita type product.

Nevertheless, I was still unsure if soft Matza was appropriate for our
community, I consulted HaRav H Schachter, the Rabbinical Head of Yeshivah
University NY, and official Posek for the world famous OU Kosher authority.
He wrote that Jews of all traditions may eat soft Matza and that forbidding
soft Matza makes as much sense as suggesting that Custom forbids us from
decorating the Synagogue in blue rather than red. Following this, I began
the arduous tasks of locating and monitoring the wheat harvest; its storage
and milling and finally the Matza production.


Many rabbis [see www.realmatza.com.au] including HaRav Aviner, one of
Israel?s leading rabbis of the religious national movement, support the
concept of producing soft Matza for Jews of all traditions. These rabbis
were generous with their time and practical advice. Australian rabbis
however, were most reluctant to engage in any discussion, even regarding
the concept and Halacha of soft Matza.


Why and when did Matza become hard? Matza used to be a home-baked, soft
product. It was baked daily during Pesach. However, Matza production
eventually moved out of our homes. We also stopped baking it during Pesach.
It was all manufactured prior to Pesach. That is when, in order to prolong
its ?shelf-life? and prevent it from becoming mouldy, it became necessary
to bake it dry.


Today however, soft Matza can be packaged to have an extended shelf life.


The Chafets Chayim (d.1933) in his acclaimed Mishneh Berura, and all his
contemporaries (who in all likelihood ate hard Matza, nevertheless)
describe Matza as a soft spongy product (MBerura, O?Ch 486). They do not
mention a custom or preference for baking Matza hard and dry, simply
because there is no such custom or preference.


Halacha (ShO Siman 461) tells us that Matza is baked when there are no
stringy doughy threads stretched between pieces of a Matza that has been
torn apart. Alternatively, we see if any dough sticks to a skewer poked
into the Matza. Try poking a hard Matza with a skewer. Clearly, these tests
apply to soft Matza only and were applied to Exodus soft Matza. I rejoiced
at being able to reinstate this Halachic standard.


The Rama, Rabbi Moshe Isserlis (1520- 1572) advises us to make Matza less
thick than the 80 mm permitted by the Talmud. It should not exceed 12mm, as
thick as a finger. [BaEr Heitev - 1730?1770]. Matzos of that thickness if
baked hard and dry would only submit to a hammer and cold chisel.


Without going into detail (available at www.exodusmatza.com) from the
moment water is added to flour, our Code of Jewish Law (459:2) warns that
?extreme caution must be exercised to ensure that the dough is continuously
worked? and underscores the urgency with, "and not left idle even for one
moment."


Minimising idle time is probably the most difficult goal to achieve be it
with hand or machine made hard Matza. Soft Matza however, excels also in
this particular arena.


At the Seder we commemorate our Holy Temple, we describe Hillel?s practice
of making a wrap. Tradition is calling. It is roused from its slumber. This
year let?s not just *talk* about what Hillel did; let?s *do* what Hillel
did.

-- 

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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I dont know any kitchens where hot [or even cold] chamets is put directly
onto the workbench surface.
As often as I have made this observation, the response is that stuff falls
off the platter onto the workbench.

Is that enough to require kashering the benchtop?

-- 

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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"Bal tosif" means "Do not add" or "Thou shalt not add."  Bal is  spelled 
beis-lamed and means "Do not."
 
There is no such thing as a baal tosif or a ba'al tosif.  If such a  thing 
did exist it would be a "master of addition" or to be even more literal,  "a 
master of you-shall-add."
 
I have BCC'd a few people but this mistake is so common that are many more  
people who should have been cc'd if I could remember who they were.



--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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 From today's Hakhel email bulletin.

TEVILAS KEILIM--LET'S DO IT RIGHT! As the pre-Pesach Toiveling season 
comes into full force, we provide by the following link Hakhel's 
Toiveling Guidelines <http://tinyurl.com/3kzge8j>http://tinyurl.com/3kzge8j

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On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:14:55AM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: We dip the maror into the charoses to commemorate the bitterness of
: the exile into the sweetness of Redemption.

I had a problem when trying to share my own epiphany about charoses.

Side-topic, my proposed chiddush:

There is a basic paradox WRT charoses, as all contemporary qehillos
(that I know of) are accustomed to making it today: It is supposed to
look like mortar, but OTOH, it is supposed to be sweet.

So which does it symbolize? The servitude that came with having to use
mortar, or the sweetness of redemption?

I suggested that it represents "ana avda deQBH". It seems from the outside
like servitude. As the rasha says (I picture his question is rhetorical),
"Mah ha'avodah hazos lakhem?" But "ta'amu ure'u ki tov Hashem" -- once
you try it and "taste" it, you can sense its sweetness.

My problem, which is also a problem with the idea Cantor Wolberg was
taken by how eloquently it was presented, is that charoses was not
orignally sweet.

The maqor for charoses is Pesachim 116a.

The zeikher letit is shitas R' Yochanan. R' Levi says it's zekher
latapuach, the apple (?) trees under which BY's women gave birth, hiding
from the Mitzriim. Since there were no apples in Mitzrayim at the time,
tapuach must mean something else. R' Tam translates it esrog. But in any
case... The Y-mi Pesachim 10:3 says zeikher ladam. And a beraisa has a
different version of R' Yochanan -- zekher lateven.

Rashi ends up with apples and wine to give it a sharp taste, with other
ingredients added to thicken it. The Rashbam also speaks of a sharp
taste. The Ran says apples and vinegar for the taste, ground vegetables
to thicken (maybe a tevan reference?). Tosafos tell you to then thin it
at the meal with more wine or vinegar. The Mordekhai, citing the Arukh,
goes in a different direction -- that charoses should contain all types
of tastes -- sweet, sour and bitter -- just as the clay was a mixture.

So, charoses wasn't always historically sweet, and even vinegar was
used to insure this. Which means something changed, and I was wondering
what.


What my brain came up with in response to CRW's post...

Wild prickly lettuce, the original chasah used for maror, had a kapa
worm problem. The first reason given is that charoses removes the qapa
(115a-b, R' Papa, 116a R' Ami). Tosafos ad loc appear to be saying that
we already checked the lettus, the issue isn't kashrus. It's a chemical
left behind by the qapa which is piquach nefesh, and therefore we are
more chamur and require acid in order to neutralize one of its components.

So I was thinking that what shifted was the cultivation of lettuce.

The last source I found to mention this functional explanation is Rabbeinu
Chananel (990-1053, Tunisia). The Rambam (1135-1204) says zeikher
letit, and this quickly takes over. The Rambam lived a century later
than Rabbeinu Chananel, and in more urbane locations. Of the sources we
already mentioned, the Ran was 990-1062, Rashi was 1040-1105, and while
the Rashbam lived a little later, overlapping the Rambam (1085-1158),
Troyes in the dark ages wasn't likely to be as horticulturally advanced.
The Ran was 990-1062.

Charoses originally sweetened the lettuce by containing acid -- even
though acids themselves are tart. Once our lettuce no longer needed
fixing, we shifted to having charoses which itself is sweet rather than
vinegary. When the the functional explanation whithered, people focused
on the commemorative shitah, which has some reason for using vinegar
(the things commemorated were mostly sad ones), but not enough to sustain
the recipe in the face of the notion of "fixing" or "sweetening".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

See http://matzav.com/kashering-new-pots-for-pesach

 From http://tinyurl.com/cy3o66m

Philadelphia, PA - With several recent cases of neonatal herpes 
putting the custom of metzitza b'peh back in the proverbial spotlight 
as previously reported on VIN News, a prominent rabbi has spoken out 
strongly against the custom saying that if oral suction puts babies 
at risk then the practice should not be performed.

In a 
<http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/haredi_rift_opens_over
_bris_ritual>phone 
interview 
<http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/haredi_rift_opens_over
_bris_ritual>
[]
 with The Jewish Week, Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetzky, the rosh yeshiva and 
co-founder of the Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia said that to the 
best of his knowledge, metzitza is done using a sterile pipette, in 
order to prevent any contact between the Mohel's mouth and the wound.

When asked if there were those who believe that metzitza cannot be 
performed using a tube, R' Kaminetzky stating unequivocally, "Nobody 
holds likes that" and expressed disbelief when told that there are 
rabbis who insist that metzitza must be done by mouth saying, "I 
don't think there is any response to them."

See the above URL for more. YL
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On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 03:05:45PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> From http://tinyurl.com/cy3o66m
>
> Philadelphia, PA - With several recent cases of neonatal herpes putting 
> the custom of metzitza b'peh back in the proverbial spotlight as 
...

What's relevent is that RSK is a Litvak.
No news here. R' Chaim Brisker did the same over a century ago.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

At 03:25 PM 3/28/2012, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 03:05:45PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > From http://tinyurl.com/cy3o66m
> >
> > Philadelphia, PA - With several recent cases of neonatal herpes putting
> > the custom of metzitza b'peh back in the proverbial spotlight as
>...
>
>What's relevent is that RSK is a Litvak.
>No news here. R' Chaim Brisker did the same over a century ago.
And RSRH before him in the nineteenth century.  However, if you read 
the entire article,  you will see

R' David Niederman, executive director and president of the United 
Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, insisted that the September 
death of an infant was completely unrelated to metzitza b'peh, 
telling The Jewish Week that the custom has never caused either death 
or an infection.

"We will continue to make metzitzah b'peh," said R' Niederman.

Yet another instance in which Chassidus goes it own way.  YL

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On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 03:31:43PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> What's relevent is that RSK is a Litvak.
>> No news here. R' Chaim Brisker did the same over a century ago.

> And RSRH before him in the nineteenth century...

It's no surprise that a Kamentzky holds the way Litvaks hold. The Chasam
Sofer or RSRH agreeing isn't relevent.

BTW, note that this is a case where the CS held that chadash was NOT
assur.

>                                                 However, if you read the 
> entire article,  you will see
>> R' David Niederman, executive director and president of the United  
>> Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg...
> "We will continue to make metzitzah b'peh," said R' Niederman.

> Yet another instance in which Chassidus goes it own way.

Not at all!

This is a case where the Chassidim are the ones NOT changing. They are
doing what the gemara, the rishonim, the Maharil did, and Yekkes and
Litvaks are the ones who are doing something new.

Chassidim aren't doing the "going", we are. And how to mechadeshim have
the right to force others to accept their pesaq?

Realize that the health risk doesn't rise up to halachically significant
levels. There are a few cases of permanent harm among hundreds of
thousands of berisim. And while "even one is too many", the same is true
of traffic fatalities. More Jewish kinderlach die or are permanently
injured in car accidents, r"l. Do you think we have to assur letting
children cross the street, too?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

This was a response I tried to post to a thread on Areivim ( Re: [Areivim]
Kashrus of Imported Chocolates ) but the moderator wants me to post this to
Avodah. so here it is:


RZS wrote:
Even if it is a liquid, since when can one kasher with liquids other
than water?

CM responds:
While true according to many, your flat statement is a gross oversimplification. See below:
Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster
From http://www.kashrut.com/articles/KashrutOfChocolate/
Kashrus of Chocolate ? Kashering
Besides dairy chocolate, many products are made with pareve chocolate.
Therefore, a company would need to kasher the equipment if it wishes to
make both dairy and pareve on the same machinery.36 Most of the production
of chocolate does not require heat except the conch (see above). Chocolate
companies are unwilling to introduce water to the chocolate machines, since
it can potentially damage the product. An alternative may be to run
chocolate through the system once and consider it kashered. However, this
approach is a dispute among poskim.

The Rama37 says that one should not kasher with any liquid other than
water,38 but b?dieved one is allowed to use ?other liquids? to kasher.39 A
pressing situation has the status of b?dieved.40 Based on the above, some
kashrus organizations permit a company to make dairy and pareve chocolate
on the same equipment after a ?kashering? of chocolate in between.41 Those
who do kasher with chocolate do not have to wait twenty-four hours before
kashering.42 The opinion of the OU is that since chocolate becomes solid at
room temperature it may not be used for kashering.43 This applies even if
one were to follow those opinions that permit kashering with other
liquids.44 Therefore, their policy is to have two separate systems for
pareve and dairy chocolate.45 Many other kashrus agencies follow this
opinion.46


37. O.C. 452:5, Shulchan Aruch Harav 28, Aruch Ha?shulchan 19. For those
who are lenient to kasher with ?other liquids? refer to Pri Chadash 452:5,
Kaf Ha?chaim 452:58, Hagalas Keilim page 226:footnote 1.

38. Refer to Mishnah Berurah 25.

39. Rama ibid, Shulchan Aruch Harav ibid, Mishnah Berurah 26, Shar Ha?tzyion 29, Aruch Ha?shulchan 19, Igros Moshe Y.D.

40. Refer to Shulchan Aruch Y.D. 108:3, Melamed L?hoyel O.C. 1:96. See V?Yan Yosef Y.D. 38.

41. Included in this are the Badatz of Yerushalayim and other European
hechsherim (The Laws of Pesach: A Digest 2006 page 592, opinion of Dayan
Westheim Shlita). Shufra Chocolate only manufactures pareve chocolate and
do not

have dairy in the plant (Ibid page 594). Schmerling is kashered with water or libun (fire) (Ibid page 594).

42. Mesora 7:page 75:6. Those who eat from companies who use chocolate as
kashering do not have to wait after eating meat before eating this
chocolate (Mesora 7:pages 74-75).

43. Refer to Igros Moshe Y.D. 1:60 (end). See Mishnah Berurah 452:26.

44. OU document I-14:page 4.

45. As expressed in the Manual for the Chocolate Industry (OU) page 3, OU documents K-63 and K-91.

46. Such as the KOF-K, and Star-K.

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On 28/03/2012 4:07 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> It's no surprise that a Kamentzky holds the way Litvaks hold. The Chasam
> Sofer or RSRH agreeing isn't relevent.
>
> BTW, note that this is a case where the CS held that chadash was NOT
> assur.

AIUI the Chassam Sofer did *not* allow the pipette, except in one case
which was a sh'as had'chak.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon


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