Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 5

Mon, 26 Mar 2012

• 1. I am calling for ... (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: I am calling for ... (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: I am calling for ... (Poppers, Michael)
• 4. Fascinating Remez in the Torah (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 5. From Galut to Geulah (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. Re: I am calling for ... (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Darshening the Megillah (David Riceman)
• 8. Re: Fascinating Remez in the Torah (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Pesach bread (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: costa concordia (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: costa concordia (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Pesach bread (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 13. HASHEM as a Feeilng Parent in the Hagadah and Nishmas (David Wacholder)
• 14. Re: Fascinating Remez in the Torah (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Darshening the Megillah (Micha Berger)
• 16. How To Kasher a Kitchen for Pesach - CRC YouTube Video (Prof. Levine)
• 17. Re: baal tosif? (Micha Berger)

<< Indeed, is it really appropriate and halachicly proper for a
non-local organization that is not national to appeal for funds when
the local mosdos are in need?  YL >>

There is certainly nothing wrong with any organization requesting money.
The one who is
giving the money has to decide his priorities based on many factors. This
is not the job of
those seeking charity.

I know of a friend who collects money for some EY charities. Some 2 years
ago he made a trip to the 5 towns
and the local rabbi would not let him make a shul appeal (which he normally
did). The rabbi explained that there were so many
local people out of work that they had first priority over the limited funds

<< I remember that years ago I approached our Godol here in Zurich, R. Moshe
Soloveitchik ztl (a cousin of the Bostoner Rav) about this problem. >>

Did you mean the Brisker Rav rather than the Bostoner Rebbe?


-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120325/7ae7bf55/attachment.htm>

At 11:13 AM 3/25/2012, Eli Turkel wrote:


><< I remember that years ago I approached our Godol here in Zurich, R. Moshe
>Soloveitchik ztl (a cousin of the Bostoner Rav) about this problem.? >>
>
>Did you mean the Brisker Rav rather than the Bostoner Rebbe?
I did not write this.  Dr. Sternbuch of 
Switzerland did.  He probably meant a cousin of the Brisker Rav.  YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120325/15c09518/attachment.htm>

In Avodah V30n3, RDrYL asked:
> Indeed, is it really appropriate and halachicly proper for a 
non-local organization that is not national to appeal for funds when 
the local mosdos are in need? <
I don't understand this question.  Should we expect an org. to investigate
whether other org.s local to a given area are "in need"?  Even assuming
that all org.s are "in need," what is "inappropriate" or "Halachically
improper" (as opposed to, say, merely a "tough sell" or a bit rude) with an
org. appealing to fellow Jews who are outside its "borders"/area of
influence/whatever?  (I'm reminded of someone's reaction one year when I
was soliciting funds at Kaye Scholer for YRSRH -- he essentially pointed
out that he was paying tuition to schools for his own kids, and I
essentially said that I understood but was nevertheless asking on behalf of
"my Yeshiva" [my alma mater] and that he was welcome to say no if he wished
and/or to in turn solicit me on behalf of "his Yeshiva.")  Thanks. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

The Gra brings out an amazing remez as to why b'nai Yisroel left Egypt after 190 years as opposed to the 400.
He explains that the reason is because the oppression and cruelty they received at the hands of the Egyptians
in 190 years was equal to what would have been for 400 years. And here is where it becomes fascinating.

He points out the remez in the Torah (Sh?mos Ch.1, vs.13): ?Vay?mor?ru es
chayei-hem? ?They embittered their lives with hard work?.  They made their
lives so bitter that they were able to leave early. The trope on the words
?Vay?mor?ru es chayei-hem? is kadma v?azlah. The GRA points out the meaning
of the trope: kadma means before (or early) and azla is Aramaic for ?go.?
So the trope gives the remez ?to go early.? Now It gets even more exciting.
The exact gematria of kadma v?azla is 190 which is exactly how early they
left because the Egyptians made their lives so bitter. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120325/9a2e0624/attachment.htm>

I came across the following concept which we all know from childhood put in a most eloquent, beautiful way:

We dip the maror into the charoses to commemorate the bitterness of the exile into the sweetness of Redemption.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120325/5d939619/attachment.htm>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 06:06:51PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: AIUI R'HS has said 2/3 local, 1/3 other with local defined by your
: relationship not just geography.

Yes, someone pointed the chevrah to an MP3 on which RHS advises
this.

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 05:11:09AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: The following was sent to me by
:     Dr. med. J. Sternbuch
:     Switzerland
...
: I remember that years ago I approached our Godol here in Zurich, R. Moshe
: Soloveitchik ztl (a cousin of the Bostoner Rav)...
: His answer was unexpected and showed his insight into the human psyche. He
: told me that the local Rabbonim should not do that. Because this will
: give people a pretext not to give to either place, neither locally nor
: abroad. My interpretation: if you get used to say NO to Zedoko requests,
: you will use this word also locally. And then you will use such a
: recommendation as pretext to say no. You should always give, but with a
: very clear preference to local and known causes....

I raised a related objection when hearing RHS's formula. This isn't
a zero-sum game; meaning -- it's not like every sheqel I don't give X
means a sheqel goes to Y. A person gives more to causes that move him.

If we gives someone an artificial rule that tells them not to give
priority to that tzedaqah which moves him to find that extra few dollars
are available after all, he will end up giving less.

I therefore would read "aniyei irekha qodmin" not as a halachic rule,
but a Mussar one. It's proper to give priority to the people you know. If
you don't feel that way, fix it. But in the meanwhile, give more to the
causes that you are motivated to give to -- that way you will maximize
your generosity.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

RMB:

<<Can we use the 13 or 19 middos of derashah on the Megillah? These are 
to retreive intent of Anshei Keneses haGedolah, not deOraisos, so it's 
not exactly the same thing.>>

See Tosefta Kesubos 4: 9-13, and see BM 104b, cf. Hasdei David on 
Tosefta Kesubos 4:10.

David Riceman

On 25/03/2012 12:36 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> The Gra brings out an amazing remez as to why b'nai Yisroel left Egypt
> after 190 years as opposed to the 400.

You mean 210

> The exact gematria of kadma v?azla is 190 which is exactly how early
> they left

Exactly.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On 25/03/2012 9:50 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I was talking to a woman in the grocery store on Friday, and she
> mentioned that she makes Pesach bread using matzah cake meal. Bagels,
> too, though she doesn't boil them because they fall apart when she tries.
> My question is, is this legit?

I wouldn't have thought this would work very well.  Bread that doesn't
rise isn't very good, and this wouldn't rise, which is the whole point.
But if you can make something edible, then why not?

> It sounds like the kind of thing gebroks  avoidance was invented to prevent

Not really.  The origin of gebrochts is in the ShuT printed at the end
of vol 6 of SA Harav, #6.  He writes that recently, "in the last 20 years
or more", a new hiddur has taken on, of making the matzos quickly instead
of working the dough for a long time as had been done before.  I assume
he is referring to the hiddur we all know, of making each batch within 18
minutes.  He lauds this hiddur but says that there is a down side: as a
result of this speed the dough may not get thoroughly kneaded, and it's
possible that some flour remains unincorporated into it, and survived the
baking, and will become chametz if it gets wet.  So he recommends that
one take care not to allow water to contact the matzah, just in case.


> but since I don't keep gebroks, is there any reason I shouldn't try doing this?

I don't see any halachic reason not to, just culinary ones.  And what
do I know?  If your friends says it produces something edible and worth
the effort, then why not try it and see?


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

> 1) The captain and crew have special obligations to rescue the
> passengers beyond the normal requirement to help people in danger. This
> is considered as part of their job and they receive part of the salary
> for knowing what to do in emergency situations. Thus, the captain and
> crew must remain aboard until the last moment before the boat sinks. If
> the captain leaves earlier he is considered a "rodef" as he causes a
> loss of morale among the passengers. Of course once the deck is close
> to the waterline they have no obligation to search for passengers still
> trapped as that would be suicide.

> An ordinary passenger should take the first lifeboat available and need
> not worry about the safety of others as the danger involved is too large,
> Nevertheless even they did this they would be considered holy and not
> sinners as most suicides would be.
 
> As to the order of saving people the Mishna is not applicable. Everyone
> had bought tickets and so had rights to be saved as soon as feasible and
> there is no preference for a Cohen etc. R. Elyashiv points to a Rashi
> that says the Mishna only applied if everything else is equal. Hence,
> in this case it would apply only if a bystander were rescuing people not
> if the crew is rescuing passengers. R. Zilberstein thought the concept
> of first saving women and children was valid as they are the weakest
> and need the most help.

WADR I could use some help with this 

1. Is the statement of the crew's obligation based on an "umdna" that
this is what they get paid for? Is the expectation set by halacha or
the company's training and employee's contractual obligations or is this
some Halachic standard set outside of these agreements?

2. Does HKB"H prefer this "holy act" or not?

3.Why is the crew member's involvement make it "everything is not equal"?

4.Why does the most help needed make a halachic difference to the order
of the mishna if someone will not be saved who would have otherwise.

Bottom Line -- the horiyot priorities once again get treated as a tertiary
methodology, unclear why.

KT 
Joel Rich 

On 25/03/2012 10:39 AM, Eli Turkel cited R Zilberstein:
>
> He further stated that he saw no justification for someone to hire
> himself as a guard for mob figures as part of their job is to protect
> the mob leader no matter what and the risks don't justify any salary.
> OTOH guearding a political person is legitimate as the chances of an
> attack on a leading politician is slim compared to gang attacks.

The principle that one may risk ones life for money is established in
the Torah: "ve'eilav hu nosei et nafsho".  So who is to say how much
risk is too much?  Surely the fact that people do take these jobs, for
sufficient money, shows that they consider the risk to be worth the
money that they get.  And surely most such guards do in fact survive.
As do most mob leaders, for that matter.  So I don't see what basis
RZ has for deciding that guarding a controversial politician is OK but
guarding a mob boss isn't.  (Of course there's a whole 'nother shayla
about becoming an accomplice to the mob boss's crimes, but that isn't
the subject here.  Assume that this mob boss doesn't do any aveiros,
that all his crimes are halachically justified, so mesa`ye'a` is not
an issue, but he's still at risk from assassins.)


> As to the order of saving people the Mishna is not applicable.
> Everyone had bought tickets and so had rights to be saved as soon as
> feasible and there is no preference for a Cohen etc. R. Elyashiv
> points to a Rashi that says the Mishna only applied if everything
> else is equal. Hence, in this case it would apply only if a bystander
> were rescuing people not if the crew is rescuing passengers.

I don't understand this at all.  Surely if they all bought tickets they
are all equal, and so the order *does* apply.  What RZ says would be
relevant if the Cohen had not bought a ticket and the Yisrael had.
Then the bystander must save the Cohen first, while the crewman must
save the Yisrael first.  But if they both have tickets, and there are no
other considerations to favour the Yisrael, then surely the heirarchy
must apply, mustn't it?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

R"n Lisa Liel asked:

> I was talking to a woman in the grocery store on Friday, and she
> mentioned that she makes Pesach bread using matzah cake meal.
> Bagels, too, though she doesn't boil them because they fall apart
> when she tries.
>
> My question is, is this legit?  It sounds like the kind of thing
> gebroks avoidance was invented to prevent, ...

To me, it sounds like the kind of thing *kitniyos* avoidance was intended
to prevent. *Very* frequently, the reason for avoiding kitniyos is the
confusion between kitniyos flour and regular flour. Yet, I don't know
*anyone* who says that kitniyos includes matzah meal.

In contrast, gebroks certainly does focus on matzah meal, but the reason
for avoiding it always has something to do with it actually becoming
chometz, never that people would confuse the matza meal (or the matzah cake
meal) with regular flour. (And frankly, this surprises me, given the
extremely similar appearance of cake meal and white flour. But I love my
gebroks, and I'm not complaining.)

Going back to the main question, yes, it is totally legit, for those who do
eat gebroks. And in fact, using such rolls on Erev Pesach was the topic of
a VERY lengthy discussion on these pages back in 2001. Check the archives
under the topic "Erev Pesach she'chal b'Shabbos Eitza for Ashkenazic
Gebrokts Eaters", and "Matzah mehl Rolls on Erev Pesach", and similar
titles.

Going through my notes, I see that listmember R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
cited Shemiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa vol. 2 chap. 56 note 50, who actually
suggested using these rolls on Erev Pesach Shechal B'Shabbos, and writes:
"U'ktzas Tzorich Iyun lamah ha'Acharonim ein mevi'im eitza zu v'yotzei
yedei chovaso l'kil ha'dei'os." (If anyone wants to join the thread at that
point, go to http://www.ais
hdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n008.shtml#01)

When reviewing that thread, try not to get sidetracked by the many
questions about whether or not such rolls would violate the issur of eating
matza on Erev Pesach, because that is the ONLY reason to avoid them (for
those who do eat gebroks). In other words, those who allow eating such
rolls on Erev Pesach allow them even in the afternoon, and even as late in
the afternoon as when hamotzi/mezonos/meal are allowed on any other Erev
Yom Tov. And if so, it is entirely logical to say that they are allowed
even on Pesach itself.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f6f9aa0210462626ef2st03vuc

1. The unique Yud- Hey Vav Hey - was never shown to Avraham?? Hagadah
Maaseh Nissim Rav Yaakov Loeberbaum Z"L asks at beginning of Hallel -
[Otzzar Hatefgilos vol. 2 page "884" '] . He answers that the Name
Havayah acquired Pirsum acknowledgement in the highest echelons of
Egyptian society - Par'oh learnt his Name.

2. Little did he know - Raavan answered amazingly - Par'oh had hitories
and records. Hashem's past resume was of a reclusive Deity with only the
most dedicated followers. - Avraham had sought him for years and risked
his life for Him received acknowledgment - and for a short skirmish in
Sdom even defeated a large army. After that He returned to quiescence.

3. At the Sneh Hashem willfully changed into a permanent challenger to
all despots and dictators - He will remove bnai Yisrael from Par'oh's
despotism. That Nation - could be seen working to exhaustion and
definitely not "tuned in" to the message - Mikotzer Ruach Umei'avodah
Kasha. he announced - even the somnolent, even the Mitzrayim-identtifiers,
even Dasa and Aviram - all will be "whipped" into shape to worship Hashem -
never to be reversed.

4. This determination - even mal'achim thought Hashem had gone too far.
Par'oh thought it was a momentary mood and will soon reverse. So he
hardened his heart - why change his culture overnight? in astrology,
when a constellation is rising it is strong, when it sinks it weakens. He
kept watch for the weakening - right into Yam Suf.

5. Hashem had promised a permanent change - that is [loc. cit. below]
Ani Hashem Lo Shiniti - lo yanum v;lo yiyshan. The commitment is ongoing
and permanent.

6. By the way he points out that the word olam l'olam ha;olam ha'olamim -
in brachot and tefilos - should almost always translate as "ever-dynamic" -
chai ha'olamim - always "awake and alive" for ever. [Rambam and Rav
Saadyah perhaps Sefer yetzira are sources for the common "the world"
translation.

7. Here the point is that this is an upheaval of Hashem's new involvement
announced at the Sneh. That is the meaning of Min Ha'olam in Nishmas -
since Yetziat Mitzrayim until now. Ad ha'olam is until the last Jew
returns. That is the Klall - the prat is Mimitzraim g'altanu. See Emmet
V'yatziv for same. [Rokei'ach on chumash - was a follower in Pshat of
Raavan. ]

8. [ EV"N is self described copyist in Pisron Nishmas after Hilchos
shabbos in Machzor Vitry]

9. ===

10. When Rashbam describes secrets we must hearken. In the Parsha of
Ehkeh asher Ehkeh he hides his peirush in ATBaSH [lazy decoders can look
in chizkuni]. "i say I will be - they say He will be - yihyeh and yihveh
are same - mah hovveh l'adam"

11. Add my friend's kashya - Midrash shmos 3 times Ehkeh - ergo Hayah
hovveh yihyeh - - Does not say havayah? Tur OC 5 was careless? [Hint -
see Rokei'ach bracha after Hallel - in Siddur Rokeiach vol 2 herschler
edition]]

12. Meshech Chochmah - why no need for baal koreh to euphimize Eh yeh
when he reads it ? Only Havayah he edits out to Adnus?

13. Answers - EHH keh is self-described - He knows himself - even if
that knowledge is Primary and Highest.

14. Yihyeh - we cannot describe him - - so when we imply that we do -
we change to Adnus.

15. [Inexplicably there is a piece missing only in Coopersmith Meshech
Chochmah - manual search never solved the enigma.

16. ===

17. Using RAVN - Ehkeh is Hashem's unilateral commitment even if there
are no followers, no listeners, nobody interested - He will carry it out.
That permanent unilateral determination is Ehkeh.

18. RAAVAN - see Even Haezer of RAAVAN - Deblitzky now put out only Volume
2 edited - it is there end of Masechet Brachos [quiz - by comparign the
Pisron Nishmas with peirush on bracha of atah gibor - prove they are of
one long piece!!

19. RAAVAN - the absolute unflagging determination of hashem is shown
in Yetzias Mitzrayim - and has a name - Rachamim - wombs - Klal Yisrael
as a nation - was - Maharal fans - Baby in a Womb - . "ka'asher yisa
ha'omen et hayoneik" Moshe Rabeinu says.

20. Carry a baby - before it has a say - because look at the potential.

21. Once baby born - soon it interacts with mother - then smiles at
mother - that is --- Recognition of Mother's Rachamim

22. From then on - some amount of demand from Baby also

23. That is SHem Havayah - and why EhKeh is GAnuz - but where ??? Inside
shem Havayah!!! Now the Tur - water carrier of Rabi yehudah Hachasid -
makes sense - he is discussing Hashem's commitment to Yisrael.
We recognize Ehkeh - which has source in 3 times repeated in Midrash.

24. ==

25. Ruth - bamos permitted - Hashem's unlimited Rachamim anywhere.
Melech and Mikdash - localized - only in Mikdash - elokayich tziyon.
Their greeting - with Hashem's name.

26. ==

27. Abrabenel in Hagadah and chumash - wanted someone to say this -
and found noone.

28. ==

29. Mishna Arvei psachim - Mozgin Kos ...i omrim alav Birkas Hashir -
puzzling - which blessing-prayer? May birkas hashir Nishmas or Hallel
Hagadol. Nishmas - the secret there we just explained. Nosein Lechem lchol
basar - Ki l'olam chasdo also specifically after Ytzias Mitzrayim - though
the inspiriation that he is "Marked Present" is in the entire cosmos
and fauna and flora. [If only universal it has no place in Hagadah. The
universe can use their gifts and join the Unity. This answer Raavan
surely met, and said at the Seder.

30. ==

31. This poor person - gets cup erev pesach - the poor philosopher gets
a hearing also. How does Bracha affect hashem? Poor philosopher answers -
baby doesn't ask which vitamins mother takes - the baby trusts the mother
and needs the mother and panics when mother is out of sight momentarily.
Other mothers know.

32. Batsheva - ychi hamelech David l'olam - the same thing is said by
a guardsman in Shevet Dan - without knowing that David is making Rosh
Chodesh seudah and needs 20 loaves of bread, plates, etc. As we are in
contact with hashem we need no understanding.

33. the maid on Yam Suf says "Zeh E i l y [Keili] v'anveihu -= the direct
connection. My current coinage is dyad - DYAD - ascribing a meaning of
ongoing contact of a pair.

34. ==

35. Ani v'lo mal'ach - the unilateral Ehkeh will - Bnei Yisrael - for
the one moment - static - tacharishun - hashem carrying them.

36. ==

37. MaTZPaTZ - say mkubalim anticipating Rokeiach - Atbash of He Will Be -
is B'Rachamim - shomei kol truas amo yisrael b'rachamim - ;;; Rachamim is
a brave courageous personal commitment not a Nebbish Miskein middah. [cf.
Shnos Eliyahu Brachot on blessing one of amidah, etc. ]

38. Teimani Tichlal - [quick count] in entire Amidah only one use of
Chanun - forbearance of temporary sort - in Chanun Hamarbeh Lislo'ach. We
do not want to brazenly acclaim that we will continue - to sin - so we
say - just this moment have mercy chanun. Tachanun prayer is a failsafe
measure when we feel the Rachamim appeal missed its mark. When we feel
Rachamim we do not say it.

39. Rachamim - our potential level - Nissan - Atidin l'higa'eil.

40. ==

41. Chasal Siddur Pesach ends - in Yotzer for this Shabbat hagadol -
UVchen ulcha taaleh kedushah KI ATA kedosh yisrael umoshi'a

-- 
David Wacholder
Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
dwachol...@optonline.net

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 12:36:26PM -0400, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: They made their lives so bitter that they were able to leave early. The
: trope on the words "Vay'mor'ru es chayei-hem" is kadma v'azlah. The GRA
: points out the meaning of the trope: kadma means before (or early) and
: azla is Aramaic for "go." So the trope gives the remez "to go early." Now
: It gets even more exciting. The exact gematria of kadma v'azla is 190
: which is exactly how early they left because the Egyptians made their
: lives so bitter.

My problem is: how much significance do I give the Ashkenazi names
for Tiberian trop notation.

In Sepharadi, it's azla gerish and in Teimani, qadma vetaras.
And the notation we use (like the vowel system) is only one of three.
None of this would work in Babylonian or Palesinian trop, only Tiberian.

OTOH, the name "qadma ve'azla -- progress and go away" is intended to
reflect its gramatical role (and thus of the tune used). So perhaps
the first part -- that "vayemoreru es chayeihem" is chanted in a
progress-and-leave trop is not specific to Ashk, but shares common cause.
We use a tune indicating the resulting hastening (and Ashkenazim chose
a name that matches the tune).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 02:53:42PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> See Tosefta Kesubos 4: 9-13, and see BM 104b, cf. Hasdei David on  
> Tosefta Kesubos 4:10.

I don't think anyone would darshen lashon hedyot in the manner we're
discussing -- with the 13 or 19 middos. Rather, as is spelled out in the
cases in the Tosefta, they were maqpidim on the *peshat* of the words
rather than reconstructing intent.

In Y-mi Megillah we're talking gezeiros shavah, extra letters, etc...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

<http://www.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&;v=OA3P1shmhME>http://www.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&;v=OA3P1shmhME 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20120326/33207e14/attachment.htm>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 06:56:41PM -0400, Ken Bloom wrote:
: It would mess up the way in which the sefirot are represented by the
: plate. (But to say whether it's symbolism or whether it has an actual
: effect on the sefirot is way beyond me.)

Even those who hold that the models of Qabbalah are a system of symbology
(eg the Ramchal, RSRH), still say that hashgachah peratis means that
reality will differ depending on how the person involved changes. So,
symbols, if taken to heart, change reality.

And lehefech, even those who hold they are actual ontologies or
hypostacies, metaphysical things that exist, hold that much of metaphysics
is in the realm of ideas. Olam ha'emes in a very real sense. Mal'akhim as
tzuros beli chomer, the form (and thus inFORMation inherent in the form)
detatched from physical implementation, and the Seikhel haNivdal.

The difference between the two perspectives may be more in how they are
viewed, how the concepts are emphasized -- with nafqa minos lemaaseh --
than in what is actually being described.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 5
*************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."