Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 25

Thu, 23 Feb 2012

• 1. Re: bris kibudim (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: Asking your own shailas (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: R Elyashiv (Poppers, Michael)
• 4. Re: Clear Thinking About Male Homosexuals (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. Re: Clear Thinking About Male Homosexuals (Lisa Liel)
• 6. A Conversation With Hashem... (Micha Berger)
• 7. FW: Rav Kook's biews on sham geirus (SBA)
• 8. Re: Clear Thinking About Male Homosexuals (Zev Sero)
• 9. Allegory and Medrash (Micha Berger)
• 10. food's kosher,but (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 11. Re: food's kosher,but (Micha Berger)

R' Mordechai Cohen wrote:

> We just had a grandchild in EY

Mazel tov!

> A popular mohel there for the anglos in J'm (R yehuda Baum) gave
> my son the following list of prioritized kibudim for the bris:
> Sandak/amidah l'brochos/kisai eliyahu/brochos/krias shaim/amidah
> l'krias shaim/maihakisai/maihasandak
>
> I was surprised by the chashivus given to the second kibud.
>
> Certainly in chul the olam treats amidah l'brochos (& kisai
> eliyahu) as less important than brochos/krias shaim

In my experience, what the "olam" considers to be important has more to do with voice and fame rather than anything inherent in the action itself.

Exhibit A: The olam considers Hagbah less important than any aliyah.
Exhibit B: The olam considers Eidei Kiddushin less important than any of the brachos.
Exhibit C: The olam considers Krias Hakesubah *more* important than most other kibudim.

As to why that mohel placed amidah l'brachos higher than the brachos themselves, I have no idea, but surely he has a reason. Ask him!

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
The New "Skinny" Fruit
How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f441275ecf0012bbe8fst06vuc

On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 09:44:44PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 02:28 PM 2/17/2012, Dovid Cohen wrote:
>> R' Liron Kopinsky asked if one can rely on a shaila asked by another, or if
>> "you always need to find out how your particular LOR paskens."

>> I have heard the assertion made that one needs to pick one rav and follow
>> him in everything, but I'm not sure what the source for that is.

> I really do not see how one can rely on one rov for "everything."  Some 
> sheilos require expertise in particular areas, and I doubt that one rov 
> will have expertise in all areas.

To my mind, the important factors are:

The value of turning to someone else with your questions just to gain
objectivity. So you don't want to be picking a rav based on what answer
fits your preconceptions -- whether it's satisfying taavah (lequlah)
or a need for yuharah (lechumerah).

The value of minimizing inconsistency. IOW, if one needs multiple
experts, try to get experts who work in similar ways, and perhaps have
one recommend the other. If possible.

The distance between theoretical discussion (halakhah velo lemaaseh),
discussing lomdus in places like Avodah, and actual pesaq halakhah
for lemaaseh.

Among the things that cause that distance is that violating accepted
norms and violating the general path the din has been evolving through
are factors that need to be weighed in a lemaaseh decision. It's not
all lomdus.

Last, I fear that we got so focused on halakhah as promulgated by
consensus -- even those of us who know on a conscious level that there is
rarely a consensus of "major posqim" (or even which posqim are "major"),
by tertiary sources and halachic guides, and by personal interaction
with books.

This last point defies what I think is the central Oral Tradition nature
of TSBP. The culture of posqim, and the culture of what people do, is
*supposed* to be part of the halachic process. As is the evolution of
sevara, rather than sevara based on blank-slate evaluation of the sources.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

In Avodah V29n24, R'Micha responded to RET:
>> Is there any mitzvah to be closer to the sick person. Does praying in the corridor have any more effect than praying in kikar shabbat? <<
> Maybe the setting is more emotionally motivational -- a strong kavanah
> aid. Isn't that the Litvisher approach to understanding the value of
> davening at a qever? <
I can't speak to the Litvishe (or to the Brisker) approach, but I thought
approaches to understanding davening at a qever (only the second of which
seems pertinent to davening in a hospital corridor [as opposed to being
m'vaqeir hacholeh]) included
-- that n'shamos may be present and then could return to the olam
han'shamos and intercede w/ the Ribono shel Olam (viz. the story of the
farmer who was b'veis haq'varos on one RhSh ba'al karcho and, because of
the weather forecast he overheard the previous year, there on the next RhSh
deliberately; or, leaving myths aside, consider Rachel Imeinu m'vakeh al
banehah...);
-- to display k'vod hameis; and
-- that the place was a maqom qadosh because of the revelation in this world of midas hadin. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:02:31  -0600
From: "Jay F Shachter" <_...@m5.chicago.il.us_ 
(mailto:j...@m5.chicago.il.us) >


[1] Some knowledge is built into the human condition.  It  is
a consequence of being human that you know -- you just know --  that
murder is wrong.  ....Judaism teaches that the
prohibition  of pederasty falls within the Seven Noahide Commandments.
In other words, it  is an act forbidden not only to Jews, but also to
all human beings, which  means that there is something intrinsic to our
nature that knows that it is  forbidden. ....
 
 
 
[2] .... There are acts which a Jew must die rather  than
perform, which are nevertheless perfectly permitted to a descendant  of
Noah.  My favorite example (because of its shock value) is  sexual
intercourse with your daughter. .....We do not possess any innate  knowledge
that sexual intercourse with our daughters is  forbidden.  ....
 
[3] ..... The fact is that I don't even know
for sure that my  heterosexual impulses are genetically determined, but
I assume that they are,  because of the evolutionary advantage that
they confer ....So let us
now  assume the existence of people with genes inside of them which
make them grow  up into homosexuals.  The Torah essentially says that
these people may  not have sexual pleasure, ever, their entire lives....

[4]  ... Nearly every
married person reading this article is, I am certain,  forbidden to
have sexual intercourse at this moment (else why are you sitting  in
front of your computer monitor reading  this?),....  
 
[5] .... Jewish men are
not even allowed to masturbate.  Just keep this in mind, the next time
you are trying to summon sympathy  for a male Jewish homosexual, even
one, perhaps, who is not entirely sinless.  It's like being told by
the Torah that you may not have sexual  intercourse, nor even
masturbate, ever, for the rest of your  life.


Jay F.  ("Yaakov")  Shachter



>>>>>
 
[1] It is not necessarily the case that all the seven mitzvos are things  
people instinctively know.  Eiver min hachai?  Even murder -- people  may 
instinctively know that it's wrong in general, but they find it easy to  
rationalize exceptions in which it's fine:  if a person is suffering, or  old, or 
handicapped, or useless; if the person is a Jew and therefore not  "really" 
a person; if the person is an infidel.  Etc.  But in the case  of sexual 
sins I think that you are right and that people do instinctively feel  a 
revulsion towards certain acts, a revulsion that has to be "educated" out of  them 
before they will commit these acts.  Every society has some kind of  incest 
taboo, for example.  And probably homosexual acts are in this  category of 
something that people in every society instinctively feel is wrong  -- if 
not morally wrong, then at any rate unnatural.  When Avodah Zarah was  rampant 
it actively worked to overcome people's natural revulsion at certain  
things -- public defecation for example, a specialty of the Ba'al Pe'or.   Greek 
society actively worked to overcome people's natural revulsion at  
homosexuality, for reasons that are as obscure to me as the attraction of the  Ba'al 
Pe'or.
 
[2]  It is not true that people feel no instinctive revulsion at  
father-daughter incest.  On the contrary, what Lot did with his daughters  is 
considered something shameful and disgusting, and the daughter who named her  child 
"Moav -- from Father" -- is condemned as particularly brazen.  I  believe 
that the reason this isn't included in the 7 mitzvos has to do with the  
technical difficulty of determining for sure who is one's father  or who is 
one's daughter.  People would never be able to marry at  all, or not without 
taking extraordinary precautions, for fear that they might  inadvertently be 
marrying their own daughter or father.  Jews, who live at  a high level of 
morality, have a public marriage with eidim and kidushin, and  also live lives 
that are constricted in certain ways (e.g., hilchos yichud),  such that 
there is a chezkas kashrus in the case of Jews, an assumption that a  girl can 
rely on the fact that her social father really is her father, and  a man can 
assume that he knows all his children, and knows that he hasn't  dropped 
seed randomly somewhere outside of his marriage that might have  grown up to be 
his unknown daughter.
 
[3]  "Evolutionary advantage"?  Perhaps you should rather have  said, 
"survival advantage."  Evolution is an unproven hypothesis and even  if it did 
occur, it was Divinely guided.  We have to say that the natural  attraction 
between men and women is something that was implanted in us by our  Creator so 
that the human race would continue.  (He also created people who  are not 
destined to marry or have children, for various reasons known to  Him.  File 
under, "why is there suffering in the world?")  But if you  /are/ going to 
talk about evolutionary advantage, you do have to answer  this question:  
what possible evolutionary or survival advantage could  there be in certain 
people being genetically homosexual?  One would  think that such a trait would 
long since have died out.  
 
[4] You are making the very assumption (the false assumption) that  
underlies so much of the evil in the Sexual Revolution including the Gay  Movement. 
 That is the assumption that people would rather engage in sexual  activity 
than in any other activity, indeed, that an asexual life is almost  
unbearable.  Possibly you are still a young man.  It is a proven fact  that some 
people enjoy the internet so much that they will continue to sit at  their 
computers even when other enjoyable activities are available.  It is  simply 
untrue that a celibate life is necessarily a life devoid of  pleasure.
 
[5]  Just because something is forbidden doesn't mean that a person  won't 
sometimes succumb to his yetzer hara, especially if by doing so, he avoids  
committing an even greater sin.  Some sins are worse than other sins  
vehameivin yavin. 
 
 
 
 



--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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On 2/22/2012 12:17 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> [1] It is not necessarily the case that all the seven mitzvos are 
> things people instinctively know.  Eiver min hachai?  Even murder -- 
> people may instinctively know that it's wrong in general, but they 
> find it easy to rationalize exceptions in which it's fine:  if a 
> person is suffering, or old, or handicapped, or useless; if the person 
> is a Jew and therefore not "really" a person; if the person is an 
> infidel.  Etc.  But in the case of sexual sins I think that you are 
> right and that people do instinctively feel a revulsion towards 
> certain acts, a revulsion that has to be "educated" out of them before 
> they will commit these acts.  Every society has some kind of incest 
> taboo, for example.  And probably homosexual acts are in this category 
> of something that people in every society instinctively feel is wrong 
> -- if not morally wrong, then at any rate unnatural.

Since this is Avodah, and not Areivim, perhaps you could offer a source 
for this statement, which in my experience is categorically incorrect.

>
> [3]  "Evolutionary advantage"?  Perhaps you should rather have said, 
> "survival advantage."  Evolution is an unproven hypothesis and even if 
> it did occur, it was Divinely guided.  We have to say that the natural 
> attraction between men and women is something that was implanted in us 
> by our Creator so that the human race would continue.  (He also 
> created people who are not destined to marry or have children, for 
> various reasons known to Him.  File under, "why is there suffering in 
> the world?")  But if you /are/ going to talk about evolutionary 
> advantage, you do have to answer this question:  what possible 
> evolutionary or survival advantage could there be in certain people 
> being genetically homosexual?  One would think that such a trait would 
> long since have died out.

Good point.  Clearly it wasn't simple evolution.  It must be part of 
Hashem's plan.

Lisa
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On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:26:59AM +1100, SBA forwarded to Areivim
something he received:
: A Conversation With Hashem...

: Me (in a tizzy) : Hashem, can I ask you something?
: HASHEM: Sure.

: Me: Promise you won't get mad? 
: HASHEM: I promise.

: Me (frustrated): Why did you let so much stuff happen to me today?
: HASHEM: What do you mean?

: Me: Well I woke up late,
: HASHEM: Yes

: Me: My car took forever to start,
: HASHEM: Okay....

: Me (growling): At lunch, they made my sandwich wrong and I had to wait
: HASHEM: Hmmmm..

: Me: On the way home, my phone went dead, just as I picked up a call
: HASHEM: All right

: Me (loudly): And to top it all off, when I got home, I just wanted to soak
: my feet in my foot massager and relax, but it wouldn't work. Nothing went
: right today! Why did you do that?

: HASHEM: Well let me see..... the death angel was at your bed this morning
: and I had to send one of the other angels to battle him for your life. I let
: you sleep through that.
: Me (humbled): Oh...

: HASHEM: I didn't let your car start because there was a drunk driver on your
: route that might have hit you if you were on the road
: Me (ashamed): ............

: HASHEM: The first person who made your sandwich today was sick and I didn't
: want you to catch what they have, I knew you couldn't afford to miss work
: Me (embarrassed): Oh.....

: HASHEM: Your phone went dead because the person that was calling was going
: to give a false witness about what you said on that call, I didn't even let
: you talk to them so you would be covered
: Me (softly): I see Hashem

: HASHEM: Oh and that foot massager, it had a short that was going to throw
: out all of the power in your house tonight. I didn't think you wanted to be
: in the dark.
: Me: I'm sorry Hashem.

: HASHEM: Don't be sorry, just learn to trust me.........in all things, the
: good and the bad
: Me: I WILL trust you Hashem

: HASHEM: And don't doubt that my plan for your day is always better than your
: plan
: Me: I won't Hashem. And let me just tell you Hashem, thank you for
: everything today.

: HASHEM: You're welcome child. It was just another day being your Hashem and
: I love looking after my children.

But it teaches that obervance gives you the life you want to have. Not
that bitachon means trusting that you are getting the life Hashem Wants
you to have.

Aside from the very major problem of someone who does teshuvah and their
life drifts further from what they wanted. Like the case I repeatedly use
(a real story) of a woman who was the only grandchild on her mother's side
to marry a halachic Jew. The only one among her siblings and first cousins
on either side to turn her life around and become Orthodox. And of course
kiruv involved a lot of stories of the sort where the protagonist misses
his flight because he stopped to do a mitzvah, and the airplane crashes.

And then she loses a child. Also the only one in her family. A crisis
of faith only because she was taught to place faith in a notion of how
religion works that doesn't fit experience.

WADR to Chassidus and Novhardok (and the CI's "Emunah uBitachon" takes
exception to the Alter of N's conceptualization in particular), their
model of bitachon might make you feel good, but at the expense of buiding
your faith upon an unstable foundation.

Second, on a diet of this kind of story, how does one ever get to "shelo
al menas leqabel peras"? "Mitokh shelo lishmah ba lishmah" isn't likely
to include people who repeatedly take the trip back...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Subject: Rav Kook's biews on sham geirus
Re recent discussion on Areivim (Rabbi Drukman's geirus)

http://www.rabbibrand.022.co.il/BRPortal/br/P102.jsp?arc=289899

On 22/02/2012 1:17 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> I believe that the reason this isn't included in the 7 mitzvos has to
> do with the technical difficulty of determining for sure who is one's
> father or who is one's daughter.

Impossible.  One of the six arayos forbidden to bnei noach is one's
father's (ex-)wife.  She is of course no easier to identify than one's
daughter.  There's also clearly no instinctive revulsion against
marrying one's elderly father's pretty young widow, and yet she is
forbidden, while one's daughter and one's paternal half-sister, who
are blood relatives, are permitted.  Nor is there a greater revulsion
against marrying one's maternal half-sister than one's paternal one,
and yet the former is forbidden and the latter permitted.


> And probably homosexual acts are in this category of something that
> people in every society instinctively feel is wrong -- if not morally
> wrong, then at any rate unnatural.

Can you name a few non-Biblical societies that had any problem with it?

On the contrary, Chazal assume that it's so normal among nochrim that
all nochrim, even small boys, are automatically suspected of it.  That's
why one of the 18 gezeros Beis Shammai rammed through when they had a
temporary majority was to treat all nochrim as zovim from the day they
are born, in order to discourage yehudim from allowing their sons to play
with their nochri age-mates.  Chazal also praise the Parsim for not
elevating their same-sex relationships to the public status of marriage,
as the Mitzrim and Kenaanim did; this assumes that their homosexual
practises are in themselves perfectly natural and understandable.


> But if you /are/ going to talk about evolutionary advantage, you do
> have to answer this question:  what possible evolutionary or survival
>  advantage could there be in certain people being genetically
> homosexual?  One would think that such a trait would long since have
> died out.

There are many traits that are suicidal for the individual but carry
an evolutionary advantage for the gene line.  One example is the
recklessness of teenagers; this provides the tribe with soldiers willing
to die for it, and thus sacrifice their own progeny.  A tribe without
such people will not be able to defend itself as well, and will die out.
The "uncle effect" is theorised to work in the same way.  Men without
progeny of their own to provide for, provide extra support for their
nephews, cousins, etc., and thus give the tribe an evolutionary advantage
over a tribe where every man is busy providing for his own progeny alone.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

From
http://rechovot.blogspot.com/2012/02/are-midrashim-to-be-taken-li
terally.html

    Are all midrashim to be taken literally?
    The Rebbetzin's Husband

    Several weeks ago I came across interesting 13th century comments
    recorded in the Shiltei Giborim [on the Rif] to Avodah Zarah 20. These
    comments address the question of whether midrashim are intended to
    be taken literally. You can find a text of the Hebrew -- corrected
    from manuscripts -- on-line here
    <http://www.daat.ac.il/chazal/maamar.asp?id=278>, along with some
    very important footnotes.

    Here's a quick translation of the Shiltei Giborim's words:

    Know and understand that there are three paths in midrash:

    1) Some [midrashim] exaggerate, as Chullin 90b says, "The Torah
    spoke words of emptiness, the prophets spoke words of emptiness,
    the sages spoke words of emptiness," such as in Deuteronomy 1:28
    "great, fortified cities in the heavens," and Kings I 1:40 "the
    earth split due to their voice."

    There are many of these, like the words of Rabbah bar bar Chanah in
    Bava Batra 73b; these were exaggeration, for people speak thus.

    2) Some of the midrashim present miracles, in which Gd demonstrates
    His might and displays amazing and shocking deeds, as in Daniel 10:7,
    "And I, Daniel alone, saw the vision, and the people with me did
    not see, etc." And Yonah ben Amitai who was swallowed by the fish
    and spat out. And many others like this.

    Many of these are found in the words of the sages, such as Bava
    Batra 58a regarding R' Bena'ah marking caves, and Bava Batra 58a
    with a magician digging in the caves of the dead. All of those were
    miracles, as were performed and revealed to the prophets, but not
    for other people.

    There are many of these, like the deeds of Rabbah bar bar Chana,
    things which are shocking which Gd showed His pious people who
    believe in Him wholeheartedly.

    3) In some of the midrashim the sages intend to analyze Scripture
    with any means possible, relying on Tehillim 62:12, "Gd said one
    thing; I heard two." And so Yirmiyah 23:29, "For My words are as
    fire; this is the word of Gd. And they are like a hammer, splitting
    stone." They learned from this that one sentence may lead to many
    meanings, as explained in Sanhedrin 31a.

    Do not be shocked by this; you often see that even a normal person
    speaks a complex message with two facets, and certainly words of
    wisdom spoken with Divine inspiration. Along these lines the sages
    analyze a passage in any way they can analyze it, saying (Shabbat
    63a), "The passage does not depart from its simple meaning," which
    is the essence, and regarding all of the midrashim which are drawn
    from it, some of them are of the essence and close to the literal
    read and some of them have a small hint [in the text].

    You see what one of the sages taught in Taanit 5b, "Yaakov our
    ancestor did not die." One sage replied to him, "Did the eulogizers
    eulogize him and embalmers embalm him and buriers bury him for
    nothing?" And he responded, "I am analyzing the passage." Meaning:
    I know he died, but I intend to analyze the passage in any way it
    can be analyzed, and if the midrash cannot be as it sounds, the
    passage still offers a hint that one could say "he did not die"
    as Berachot 18a says, "The righteous live even in their death,"
    for their names and memory and deeds live eternally.

    A similar case is seen in Shabbat 30b, in which the exegete taught,
    "Israel will produce cakes and fine clothing," as it is written,
    "There will be pisat bar in the land." [See Rashi there, for the
    connection between pisat and cakes and clothing.] A student mocked
    him, noting that Kohelet 1:9 says there is nothing new under the
    sun! To which he replied, "Come and I will show you an example of
    these items in this world." He went out and showed the student
    mushrooms. The sage was informing him that the midrash could be
    explained in a manner which was close to it; the original verse was
    teaching that the Creator would provide great goodness in the world.

    Similar statements occur in other midrashim

    They said in Yerushalmi Nazir 7:2, "Are the midrashot amanah? Learn
    them and receive reward." It is explained that the sages did not state
    the midrashim as matters of faith [emunah] and as the essence, but
    to increase the meanings of the text and analyze all of its facets,
    such that they might include a hint. Links to text and hints are
    among the paths of Torah study, regarding which it is said, "Learn
    them and receive reward."

    Regarding one who mocks their words it is said (Divrei haYamim II
    36:16), "And they mocked the messengers of Gd... and made light of
    His prophets." In various places we find that they were punished for
    mocking the words of the sages. Learn from the student who mocked
    the words of the sage who was analyzing Yeshayah 54:12, "And I will
    make your windows of gems," and they showed him from heaven, for the
    honour of that sage, that the words of the sage were accurate and one
    should not mock them, and the student was punished. (Sanhedrin 100a)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

http://www.cross-currents.com/archi
ves/2012/02/17/when-tzedek-isnt-the-conservative-movement-finds-a-cause/ 


in  comments,  micha  noted-----

?lacosta?: why does serving treyf affect the hechsher but abusing workers 
doesn?t?

Because the hekhsher is a statement that ?this isn?t treif?.

When I was a kid, a reastaurant in Queens with Middle Eastern cuisine lost 
its hekhsher over having a belly dancer. The hekhsher could not in good 
conscience promote kosher-observant Jewish men watching belly dancing. 
That?s closer to this topic, in that the agency wouldn?t certify something 
as kosher for reasons other than kashrus.
But it?s still different, because the consumer is the one who would be 
sinning. Here it?s the producer who sinned, not what do we do? One can?t 
crossbreed fruit, but after the fact, crossbred fruit are kosher. Here too 
it?s after the fact.

and another  commentor----

In short response to your response, I think that if the Orthodox 
rabbinute, in general, paid more attention to the type of issues that 
could be considered ?ethical? issues in the general society, it would 
undercut things like this Conversative ?hecksher.? 


Question  :      1]   does anyone  have a problem with pulling the 
hechsher  because  of  mixed dancing/belly dancing ?
                        2]   would anyone having  a problem if  O rabbis 
declared  aproduct trayf,   eg  table  grapes bacause of   a] the 
behaviour of jewish owners b] non-jewish owners?
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On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:38:09AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
: http://www.cross-currents.com/a
: rchives/2012/02/17/when-tzedek-isnt-the-conservative-movement-finds-a-cau
: se/ 

: in  comments,  micha  noted-----
:> "lacosta": why does serving treyf affect the hechsher but abusing workers 
:> doesn't"

That is: Quoting "lacosta" who asked: why does...

To which I answered:
:> Because the hekhsher is a statement that "this isn't treif".
...
:> But [the restaurant with the belly dancer is] still different, because
:> the consumer is the one who would be sinning. Here it's the producer who
:> sinned, not what do we do. One can't crossbreed fruit, but after the
:> fact, crossbred fruit are kosher. Here too it's after the fact.

: and another  commentor----
:> In short response to your response, I think that if the Orthodox 
:> rabbinute, in general, paid more attention to the type of issues that 
:> could be considered "ethical" issues in the general society, it would 
:> undercut things like this Conversative "hecksher." 
...

But an earlier comment that I wrote there addressed this point:

> The Conservative Movement, at least its left wing, bought into the
> identification of Juadiam with "Tikkun Olam", here being used to refer
> to social activism in causes popular among the more liberal camps of
> the Democrat Party. So, this comes as no surprise.

> If they want to say ethics are more important than kashrus, it's likely
> they're right. Where things go wrong is this notion that there is a
> tradeoff. Checking the ethics of companies the cater to our community --
> kashrus, sefarim publishers, etc... -- is a good idea. But has nothing
> to do with kashrus. There is a choice being portrayed rather than telling
> people of the need to pursue both.

> What don't gain much vilifying the members of this camp for living
> to their own ideals. Rather, what we need to do is to stay out of the
> newspapers with stories of ethical lapses. When these things happen,
> we talk of chillul Hashem -- this is simply the fallout. We give
> the non-Orthodox movements far too much fuel for believing that it's
> meticulousness in the more rite areas of halakhah or in ethics. We
> regularly hand them opportunities to claim they are the ethical high
> road. We can't blame them for taking it.

> But Judaism is the pursuit of both.

> A second piece of the damage is that because it's not the Orthodox world
> taking on the role of ethical mouthpiece for Judaism, the ethics being
> promoted are those of Liberal America, [which are] not [always those of]
> the Torah.


BTW, when I wrote "But Judaism is the pursuit of both" I understated my
own belief.

AIUI, the introduction to Shaarei Yosher says otherwise, as did Hillel
hazaqein. Judaism /is/ all about bestowing good on other people, and
things like kashrus are the means of becoming someone (1) more capable
of choosing to do so in the heat of the moment and (2) who more often
knows what "tov", as Hashem defined it, is.

To quote (my translation of) Shaarei Yosher (Hebrew & English at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/ShaareiYosher.pdf>, proofreaders welcome):

    Yisbarakh HaBorei Veyis'alah haYotzer...
    Blessed shall be the Creator, and exalted shall be the Maker,
    Who created us in His "Image" and in the likeness of His "Structure",
    AND PLANTED ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN US, SO THAT OUR GREATEST DESIRE SHOULD
    BE TO DO GOOD TO OTHERS, TO INDIVIDUALS AND TO THE MASSES, NOW AND IN
    THE FUTURE, IN IMITATION OF THE CREATOR (as it were). For everything
    He created and formed was according to His Will (may it be blessed),
    [that is] only to be good to the creations. So too His Will is that
    we walk in His ways. As it says "and you shall walk in His Ways" --
    that we, the select of what He made -- should constantly hold as
    our purpose to sanctify our physical and spiritual powers for the
    good of the many, according to our abilities.

We were crearted to that our greatest desire is leheitiv im zulaso, not
and in the future. Doing good, but also phrased in terms of learning
to want to be meitiv, and developing the capacity to be meitiv in
the future. And that is developing the tzelem E-lokim.

And so, every mitzvah that isn't directly leheitiv im zulaso (one of
the golden eggs), I believe is part of that preparation (caring for
the goose that lays them).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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