Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 22

Fri, 17 Feb 2012

• 1. Re: Should we be davening for R' Elyashiv to live? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. life donation (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Yahrtzeit of Reb Yisroel Salanter is this Shabbos (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Asking your own shailas (David Cohen)
• 5. Should we be davening for R' Elyashiv to live? (Joel Schnur)
• 6. Should we be davening for R' Elyashiv to live? (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 7. Re: life donation (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Re: Gezeira's Tach V'Tat (Poppers, Michael)
• 9. Re: why stop learning? (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: life donation (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: life donation (Akiva Blum)
• 12. MISHPATIM SPEAK SOFTLY (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 13. Re: MISHPATIM SPEAK SOFTLY (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: why stop learning? (Micha Berger)

I don't think it's a Jewish thing to daven for the death of someone who is
suffering. In fact, this suggestion is shocking to me.	We daven for his
refuah and we daven that Hashem will ease his suffering, and leave it up to
Hashem to decide how to ease the suffering. I knew someone who at one point
was in a coma and had only "hours to live" -- dying of cancer -- yet he
came out of it, went home, went back to learning, made a siyum with his
friends, lived a year after he was "supposed" to die -- a year which his
wife believes was given to him because of the intensity of her davening.

--Toby Katz
=============
See here for sources on Davening for death :  http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/medical.htm
KT
Joel RIch
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http://muqata.blogspot.com/2012/02/donate-year-of-your-life-for
-r-elyashiv.html 

are there halachic parameters for this?   i assume there is no chiyuv to 
donate
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The following was sent to me by Neil Harris who 
asked the I send it out.  Note "connection" 
between 13 Middos and Benjamin Franklin.

"As the yahrzeit of RYS is coming up on the 25th 
of Shvat,  I've written a little pamphlet  about RYS's 13 Middos:

http://uberdox.blogspot.com/2012

Note also that it says on this page

My thanks to Rabbi Micha Berger for his essay and 
chart regarding the 13 middos.  Available here: http://tinyurl.com/6ow2ghr"

At http://tinyurl.com/6ow2ghr it says

One of the more amazing pieces of history of the 
Mussar Movement was that Rav Yisrael Salanter, 
despite his own antipathy for Haskalah 
(Enlightened Judaism), promoted a seifer written 
by a maskil, Rabbi Mendel (Leffin) Satanover. 
Admittedly, Reb Mendel Satanover was from the 
early Haskalah and was himself a fully observant 
Orthodox Jew. However, if you think of how 
Orthodox history portrays Moses Mendelsohn, about 
whom the same could be said, and Rav Yisrael?s 
embracing and republishing R? Mendel?s 
?<http://hebrewbooks.org/32473>Cheshbon haNefesh? is astounding.

More so, Rav Yisrael Salanter must have been 
aware of the book?s original source. Cheshbon 
haNefesh describes a particular way to keep a 
mussar journal, keeping track in one?s progress 
in various middos. This format is seasonal, 13 
middos to work on each season, and each week of 
the season focus is placed on one of those 13. 
One therefore maintains each week a 13?7 graph, 
one direction marking off the days of the week, 
the other marking off that season?s middos, 
creating boxed in which marks can be made 
counting incidences of success or failure at each middah.

The plan is taken from Benjamin Franklin?s 
autobiography. Malcolm Shosha posted the relevant 
chapters to Avodah, 
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol11/v11n010.shtml#03>here. 
The differences are twofold. First and more 
fundamentally, Franklin intended to create a list 
of virtues. R? Mendel Satonover is clear that he 
is offering 13 sample middos to demonstrate the principle.

Please see both URLs for more.  YL

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R' Liron Kopinsky asked if one can rely on a shaila asked by another, or if
"you always need to find out how your particular LOR paskens."

I have heard the assertion made that one needs to pick one rav and follow
him in everything, but I'm not sure what the source for that is.  When I
moved into our current community (RLK and I are neighbors), I adopted our
LOR as my posek, meaning that I ask him any new questions that I have.
 However, coming in with longstanding practices in many areas that are
subject to dispute -- some from family tradition, some from my own sevara,
and some from pesakim previously received from other rabbanim -- I did not
feel obligated to reevaluate all of those practices and make sure that they
match the positions of my new LOR.  (I am referring to things done in
private; obviously, one should not go against known positions of the mara
d'asra in public.)

That being said, if there is a question where you know that different
rabbanim have different opinions, and you want to know which position you
should follow, then I don't see much relevance to the fact that a friend
received a pesak from a rav with whom you have no connection.  That data
point simply tells us that there exist rabbanim who pasken that way, which
we already knew.  If you want a pesak, then the only relevant information
is what your posek holds on the matter.  On the other hand, if you were
told the *reason* for the pesak of your friend's rav, and are confident
that this information makes you knowledgeable enough about the topic that
you are now competent to decide for yourself based on sevara without asking
a shaila, then that's a different story.

-- D.C.
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Without a SA handy at work, I can't cite the exact siman and s'if but it is
there. It has been much too long but I am only remembering YD and on an amud
aleph. I was in high school and college and was as shocked as you are now
but when I saw it "inside" I better understood where he was coming from.

 

Ah bi gezunt!

 

___________________________

Joel Schnur

Senior VP

Government Affairs/Public Relations

Schnur Associates, Inc.

1350 Avenue of the Americas

Suite 1200

New York, NY 10019

 

Tel. 212-489-0600 x204

Fax. 212-489-0203 

j...@schnurassociates.com 

www.schnurassociates.com
<http://www.schnurassociates.com/>  

 

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"I don't think it's a Jewish thing to daven for the death of someone who is  
suffering. In fact, this suggestion is shocking to me."

When my family was confronted with this type of terrible situation for a
very close personal friend, our teffilot were that God should treat him
mercifully, and left the implementation of that mercy to God's judgment.

Joseph Kaplan  
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http://muqata.blogspot.com/2012/02/donate-year-of-your-life-for
-r-elyashiv.html
are there halachic parameters for this?   i assume there is no chiyuv to donate
========================================================
There's literature on giving up your life for a greater person - seems to
start with sefer chassidim 698 and a r' akiva/ reuvain ben itztrolibi which
I can not trace any earlier.  If anyone has earlier cite, let me know
please.
The whole rshut/chiyuv/recommended question is fascinating.
KT
Joel Rich
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In Avodah V29n19, R'Micha asked:
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 01:33:56AM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: 3006. The Tosfos YomTov writes that the 'Gezeira's Tach V'Tat' -
: when Jews were massacred en masse,
: was as a direct result of people speaking during davening and Krias
: Hatorah. Piskei Tshuvos 151:3
> Who are you quoting? I presume 3006 is some kind of paragraph number? <
IINM, RCRW was quoting a daily-Halacha email which has lately focused on
halachos related to q'dushas beis-k'nesses.  If I'm right, some of this
listserv's emails can be found here (thanks to Google for helping me find
this URL): http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs003/1101944367721/archiv
e/1101954102185.html . 

A gut'n Shabbes and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

RSZ:

<<isn't this just a business deal, buying schar with money.....?>>

RTK:

<<The G'ra declares his willingness to give up his schar and Hashem 
either does or does not transfer the G'ra's merit to the lulav-owner's 
Heavenly bank account.
<snip>

In the case of learning in the zechus of a person who [A] needs a  refuah
sheleimah or [B] has gone on to the next world, it may similarly be the  case
that I express my wish and intention that my learning go to purpose A or B,
  and Hashem either does or doesn't apply the "deposit" of my learning to
the  account of the person I wished to benefit

 >>

Perhaps I spent too much time learning Moreh Nevuhim when I was young, 
but this makes no sense to me.

The model I'm used to is that doing mitzvos refines one's soul, and 
having a more refined soul enables the receipt of schar, both in olam 
hazeh and in olam haba.

In order for schar to be transferable doing mitzvos must have no logical 
relation to improving one's soul; instead mitzvos must be purely 
arbitrary.  It is true that one can construe an opinion in Hazal to say 
that (see MN 3:48 citing Berachos 33b and see the Ramban's critique in 
Ki Seitzei 22:6), but this opinion seems to be ignored in most 
contemporary discussion (and the Ramban denies that it exists).

Can either of you explain the "bank account" model in a more 
satisfactory way?

David Riceman

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 06:09:31PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: There's literature on giving up your life for a greater person - seems
: to start with sefer chassidim 698 and a r' akiva/ reuvain ben itztrolibi
: which I can not trace any earlier. If anyone has earlier cite, let me
: know please.

What about Adam donating 70 years toward David haMelekh? Yalqut Shimoni
and Zohar, Vayishlach. Based on Tehillim 21:5. So, that pushes the date
up before the Sefer haChassidim.

In the Zohar's version, Avraham. Yaaqov and Yoseif did as well. (I won't
try to explain what the Zohar says about why Yitzchaq didn't.) Avraham
gave 5 years, Yaaqov 28 years -- both "should have" lived 180. Yosef
only lived 110 yrs out of 147 -- another 37.

Of course, we now have 140 -- Adam's 70 and the avos's 70. Not sure
why the same years needed to be given twice.

Regardless of our never-ending discussion of the historicity of medrash,
the donation is presented as a good thing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> -----Original Message-----
> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Micha Berger
> Sent: Friday 17 February 2012 1:17 AM
> 
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 06:09:31PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
> : There's literature on giving up your life for a greater person - seems
> : to start with sefer chassidim 698 and a r' akiva/ reuvain ben itztrolibi
> : which I can not trace any earlier. If anyone has earlier cite, let me
> : know please.
> 
> What about Adam donating 70 years toward David haMelekh? Yalqut Shimoni
> and Zohar, Vayishlach. Based on Tehillim 21:5. So, that pushes the date
> up before the Sefer haChassidim.
> 
> In the Zohar's version, Avraham. Yaaqov and Yoseif did as well. (I won't
> try to explain what the Zohar says about why Yitzchaq didn't.) Avraham
> gave 5 years, Yaaqov 28 years -- both "should have" lived 180. Yosef
> only lived 110 yrs out of 147 -- another 37.
> 

I wonder if perhaps this people are exceptional in that they appear to have
known, or at least might have known, how long their lives would be.
Yitzchok, Rashi tells us, didn't know how long.

Someone who is 26 years old might happily be prepared to reduce his life
from 91 to 90 for the benefit of a godol. But how does he know that he has
more than 27 years anyway.

Akiva

[I have extracted and distilled the following from an article by Sara Yoheved Rigler].
The Torah prohibits verbally oppressing a widow or an orphan. (Exodus
22:21).  Rashi comments that the prohibition extends to hurting anyone with
words; the Torah specifies widows and orphans only because they are the
most commonly recognized sufferers. In fact, the commentators explain, all
persons suffer, therefore we must be careful in how we speak to everyone.

This insight, that we must refrain from speaking harshly to all because we
do not know their inner anguish, is even more relevant today, given all the
tragedies experienced by so many people.

Our sages teach us that our oblivion, our unawareness of the full
ramifications of every harsh word and action, lasts only until the day of
death. Then every soul stands in judgment and is made to witness, nay
experience, the unedited video of his or her own life.
That is presumably what hell might be:	the inner inferno of remorse when
we realize the full scope of the injury we have wrought. No external fire
can compare in burning intensity to the regret we will each feel when we
perceive the suffering we ourselves have caused.
May we all think before upbraiding others and do our share in lessening the emotional pain and anguish of our fellow human beings.

ri
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On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 01:36:51PM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: That is presumably what hell might be: the inner inferno of remorse
: when we realize the full scope of the injury we have wrought. No external
: fire can compare in burning intensity to the regret we will each feel
: when we perceive the suffering we ourselves have caused.

And it's the olam ha'emes, where there is no hiding from the truth.

In my booklet for Yamim Noraim
<http://www.aishdas.org/10YemeiTeshuvah.pdf>, in "Appendix: The Mechanism
of Teshuvah" (the page numbered 38 in the current version), I cite the
Iqarim 4:33, who says that the "fires" of gehennom are those of shame.

In comparison to Rabbeinu Yonah, who also says that punishment is caused
by the sin, but uses a medical metaphor -- sins cause unhealthy and
pained souls. Or the Ramchal, "sin detracts from one's perfection". And
also in comparison to Befesh haChaim who uses a cleanliness metaphor --
sin dirties the soul and thereby glocks its exposure to the light.

: May we all think before upbraiding others and do our share in lessening
: the emotional pain and anguish of our fellow human beings.

Upbraiding others is mandatory -- in the cases where it would be
constructive. Judaism has a notion of tokhachah, not "live and let
live". It's just that we have become progressively softer, and fewer
and fewer such cases exist.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 07:53:55PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
> The model I'm used to is that doing mitzvos refines one's soul, and  
> having a more refined soul enables the receipt of schar, both in olam  
> hazeh and in olam haba.

I just realized the models I mentioned in my previous post touches on
this too. That essay makes the thesis "We are not judged for what we did, we
pay the consequences for who we are." As Yishma'el was assessed "ba'asher
hu sham".

If the topic is of interest to you, see the booklet. (You only need to
print the first 49 pages; I have to remove the second copy of the same
text from the PDF.)

That appendix has a number of essays emphasizing the causal connection.
After all, if we are assessed for who we are, teshuvah, a decision to be
someone else would *logically* avoid punishment for what one did in the
past. One removed the resulting flaws.

Then in the last essay ("The Gift of Justice") I ask:

    And yet...

    Avraham pleads with Hashem to show pity on Sedom and Amora. Moshe
    repeatedly begs (and in one case demands!) pity for the Jewish
    people. We ask Hashem to reward the righteous and punish the wicked in
    separate berakhos of Shemoneh Esrei three times every weekday. Doesn't
    all this presume that Hashem is personally meting out reward and
    punishment, that we can ask Him to temper it with Divine Mercy?

    The two perspectives co-exist in the Torah's description of the
    generation of the flood.
    ...
                - Bereishis 6:5-7,11-13

    The "end of all flesh" is described as occurring on its own, something
    which Hashem observes -- punishment as a consequence. And yet, the
    actual destruction is something Hashem declares He will do Himself,
    due to His "regret" -- meting out punishment.

    The chapter asks us to hold both perceptions simultaneously, neither
    to the exception of the other.

    ...
    Hashem is the both the One Who created the system of supernatural
    law that would cause any automatic sechar va'onesh, as well as the
    One Who would be imposing it personally. When he set up the law,
    Hashem did it cognizant of every outcome of it. The law would include
    knowledge of each instance, no less than if Hashem intervened at each
    instance. The difference is merely when the decision was made. And
    since Hashem has no time, no "when", do they really differ?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm


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