Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 16

Fri, 10 Feb 2012

• 1. Re: A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah (Lisa Liel)
• 2. tu beshvat (Eli Turkel)
• 3. A Different Way Of Saying Tehillim (??????), And Starting Kabbolas Shabbos: A New Look At An Ancient Minhog (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Efficacy of Praying for Others (was why stop learning?) (Prof. Levine)
• 5. why stop learning? (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Lo sosiru- Becoming a Posek (Yosef Skolnick)
• 7. Re: Lo sosiru- Becoming a Posek (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 9. Re: A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: why stop learning? (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 11. Terumos Umaaseros (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 12. Re: why stop learning? (T6...@aol.com)

On 2/10/2012 4:47 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 01:37:59AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>    
>> On 9/02/2012 7:05 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>      
>>> It's not my positions. It is those of every poseiq actually quoted on
>>> list. That's how halakhah is done, right?
>
>> No, I don't believe it is.
>>      
> My "that" was vague. Are you denying that halakhah is a matter of going
> to a poseiq rather than going with whichever sevara you personally find
> compelling, no matter whether anyone agrees?
>    

I deny that.  That's as extreme as the OO view that says everyone can 
make their own decisions about halakha.  The truth exists in the middle 
ground between OO and haredism.

Lisa

> Since there are shittot in the Gemarra who hold that an Etrog's kviut
> maaser goes after Rosh Hashana like a vegetable, even though we pasken
> l'maaseh that an etrog *does* follow Tu B'shvat, it still seems that the
> etrog is the least relevant fruit of the holiday. Do you know what the
> original source of this idea is?

I don't know the original source. ROY quotes the author of Ben Ish Chai who
says it in the name of chassidei Ashkenaz


[Email #2. -micha]

Based on a shiur I heard this week.

There is a famous medrash that G-d told the earth to issue forth trees
that had the taste of the fruit but the trees sinned and only issued
trees bearing fruit.

Rav Kook explains that the trees stand for the ways to achieve a goal
while the fruit is the goal. VaYomer in Breishit signifies what G-d
set as the ultimate goal that one should have the same outlook for the
ways to achieve the goal and for achieving the goal itself. In real life
people frequently suffer through a process in order to achieve a final
goal both physically and spiritually. This is the VaYaas of the Torah as
life is presently but the ultimate goal is given by the VaYomer. Hence,
as is obvious the earth did not sin (it doesnt have free will) but
rather G-d gave both the realistic way and the way one should strive to
reach perfection.

The Chatam Sofer explains that R. Yishmael insisted on the importance or
work because in Israel agricultural work itself is a mitzvah. Hence, Boaz
even though being the gadol was threshing the wheat. He also assumes that
this applies to all types of work that is needed by a country. Hence, just
as one cannot ignore tefillin in order to learn one cannot ignore yishuv
ertetz yisrael for learning, one needs a balance. However, outside of EY
there is no special mitzvah to work only what is needed in order to live.
Hence, one can rely on R. Nehorai and R. Shimon Bar Yachai who stress
learning over working because they were refeering to outside of Israel

(BTW this teshuva has been censored out of some recent reprints of the
teshuvot of Chatam Sofer).

This is connected to the statement of the Bach that fruits and vegetables
that grow in EY have an extra kedusha in them because they got their
sustenance from EY and so it is special to eat produce of EY.

-- 
Eli Turkel

Please see http://tinyurl.com/6ppo8f5

At 05:59 AM 2/10/2012, R. David Riceman wrote:

><<R' SZN: so then the sentiment is that davening for a person , is a
>bigger zchus than learning for that person? and certainly more than
>doing a chessed for the zchus of that person? <SNIP>>>
>
>I'm entering this in the middle of the discussion, so I don't know if
>its already been dealt with.
>
>While I'm unsure of the mechanism by which davening for a person works,
>it has both Biblical and Mishnaic warrant.

See http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/praying_for_others.pdf 
for what RSRH says about the "efficacy of praying for others."  This 
is part of his commentary of RSRH on Bereishis 20

7 Now, therefore, restore the wife of the man, because he is a 
prophet, so that he will pray for you and you will remain alive. But if you
will not restore her, know that you will surely die, you and all that 
are yours.

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At 05:59 AM 2/10/2012, R. David Riceman wrote:

>2.  Yissachar would not have had so much time to study had Zevulun not
>supported him.

RSRH seems to have a different take on Yissachar. 
Most people understand a Yissachar/Zevulun 
partnership to mean that Zevulun works and 
supports Yissachar, who spends /all/ of his time 
learning and does not work at all. However, the 
following commentary on Bereishis 49:15 by RSRH 
does not seem to agree with this.  Indeed, it is 
clear from the remarks of Rav Hirsch that the 
members of the tribe of Yissachar were farmers 
who, as a result of their profession, had more 
time to learn than those involved in other occupations.  YL

15 He [Yissacjar] saw that leisure is the good 
thing, and that the land is suited for it; so he 
bent his shoulder to bear and became one who pays
the tribute imposed by landwork.

Yissachar is happy to work, but only to the extent and in such a way
that the work is of value to the Jewish people. While Yehudah is the
tribe of rulers and Zevulun the tribe of traders, Yissachar represents
the true nucleus of the Jewish people: the Jewish farmer. He does not
work so as to labor without letup and accumulate wealth. The Jewish
man of the people does not subjugate himself to his work; he works in
order to gain Menucha. He leaves it to Zevulun to earn millions with his
products; as for himself, he prefers to stay at home. He regards the
leisure he earned by his own labors as his greatest asset and most prized
possession. For leisure enables a person to stand tall and to find himself.
Yissachar therefore lowers his shoulder to bear burdens, leaving the
ruler?s scepter to Yehudah and the merchantman?s flag to Zevulun. Neither
military glory nor business profit attract him. He knows other
conquests, other treasures, which can be won and retained only in hours
of leisure .

Thus, it was the tribe of Yissachar that became the guardian of the
nation?s spiritual treasures.

When, after the fall of Sha?ul, the tribes of Israel rallied around
David, thousands and hundreds of thousands came from all the tribes.
Yissachar sent only two hundred, the Roshim , the ?heads? of the tribe;
the others stayed at home and worked. But these two hundred were
Yodeah binah laitim ( Divrei Ha-Yamim I, 12:33); they brought with them
Binah , discernment, the ability to see between (bein ) things, to recognize
the interrelationships of persons and things and their potential effects
on one another. This insight, attained by Yissachar during his hours of
leisure, was Daas binah, concrete perception, not sophistry but practical
understanding of the true relationships of persons and things, which is
acquired through genuine Chochmas ha Torah. And it was laitim : it came through
correct evaluation of the uniqueness of any given moment. That was
why Kol Acheichem al pihem (ibid.), all of Israel 
lived by their pronouncements.

Knowledge of Torah and its practical application to current circumstances
are not attained by one who immerses himself in business.
Rather, they are attained by one who, in his hours of leisure, frees his
mind of all else, of whom it can be said that Vayar menucha ki tov, he regards
leisure as the true profit to be obtained from work; thus Oseh Torahso
keva oo'malachto aroiy (see RAMBAM halochos 
talmud Torah 3:7), he regards Torah study as the
main goal, and work as merely an incidental means.

Yissachar regards Ha'aretz , agriculture, as the surest path to this goal.
Hence, he devoted himself with enthusiasm to the taxing chores of
tilling the soil: Vayehi  l'mas ovad.

Use of the term Am Ha'aretz to denote ?an ignorant person? dates from
a much later period, when Jews were prevented from enjoying the quiet,
leisurely life of the farmer. This was a time when knowledge and culture
were concentrated in the cities, and Jewish villagers lived scattered about,
a few here and a few there. Cut off from the centers of learning, they
degenerated ? intellectually and often also morally ? under the heavy
burden of their daily labors.

In Tenach , Am  Ha'aretz denotes the general community, in the noblest sense
of this term.




>3.  The father would not have given tzedakah had his son not been ill.
>
>But when I was in yeshiva sometimes someone would ask us to dedicate
>today's learning for someone we'd never heard of, when we would have
>done the same learning regardless.  How does that work?

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In response to a question about whether someone has the right to formulate
their own opinion which is different from the way the poskim rule, Micha
asked:

It's not my positions. It is those of every poseiq actually quoted on
> list. That's how halakhah is done, right? If you want to say there is no
> rishon giving such an issur, that's interesting theory. I wouldn't buy
> into it given that it assumes believing RZS knows how to read rishonim
> better than a large number of rashei yeshiva. But okay. But if you are
> making a claim about a pesaq, that no such issur actually exists, and
> others quote posqim who do give such a pesaq, don't you too need a bar
> pelugta, a poseiq who actually posits the shitah you're advocating?


I suggested that that is not how Halacha works, or rather it is how halacha
works but not for everyone:

>  You go to a posek since they have spent a tremendous amount more time
> going through the sevaros.

Micha Responded:

> And to get an answer freer from negios. But my point is that we
> question our unique sevaros when actual posqim tell us otherwise.

Yosef:

> Question, yes. Say differently just because they say it, I don't think so.
>  We attribute authority to the rishonim because we assume they faithfully
> spent many many years deciphering the thoughts and ideas of the tanaaim,
> amoraim, savoraim and geonim.  And they have authority because they were
> amongst the last generations before being truly dispersed throughout the
> nations (though we were never too dispersed, right?).  The sevaros of
> actual poskim are discussed and questioned just as much as anything else.
>  I do think that the submission to the poskim is a positive thing, however,
> it often limits the people who could become the next generation of poskim.
> I found that the feeling of being bound to the thoughts of others hinders
> the analysis process.


Then, Micha points to Lo sosiru mikol asher yagidu lekha, which leads to
the question of the day.

*Question:*
1) Where did the Rabbonim that the passuk is referring to get the ability
to "Say differently" than other poskim.  At some point in their life they
weren't a Bar Plugta?  Did they wait, or did they feel comfortable with
disagreeing even at a younger age?
2) Is there a responsibility or obligation to only consider the "readings
of the texts" of our greatest sages?
3) Is it possible that someone who is not a Rosh Yeshiva could have a more
accurate reading of a particular text, perhaps they spent more time
analyzing that particular text (though clearly not others, otherwise they
would be a bar plugta), In other words, it is possible to be a bar plugta
bidavar ached.



On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 01:37:59AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 9/02/2012 7:05 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> It's not my positions. It is those of every poseiq actually quoted on
>> list. That's how halakhah is done, right?

> No, I don't believe it is.

My "that" was vague. Are you denying that halakhah is a matter of going
to a poseiq rather than going with whichever sevara you personally find
compelling, no matter whether anyone agrees?
Yosef Skolnick
516-690-SKOL
https://sites.google.com/site/yskolnick/




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] A Mamzer Marrying a Shifchah
To: Yosef Skolnick <yskoln...@gmail.com>


On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 08:24:28AM -0500, Yosef Skolnick wrote:
: Question, yes. Say differently just because they say it, I don't think so.

Lo sosiru mikol asher yagidu lekha...

I think this needs to be a new thread on Avodah. Want to get the ball
started?
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On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 09:09:54AM -0500, Yosef Skolnick wrote:
: 1) Where did the Rabbonim that the passuk is referring to get the ability
: to "Say differently" than other poskim.  At some point in their life they
: weren't a Bar Plugta?  Did they wait, or did they feel comfortable with
: disagreeing even at a younger age?

Isn't the whole point of what we call today a semichah a statement that
the person's opinions matter even though his rav is still alive?

: 2) Is there a responsibility or obligation to only consider the "readings
: of the texts" of our greatest sages?

I think this was an error in my wording. Unless my opinion slipped in
the past couple hours and I didn't notice.

Similarly, on Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 7:05am CST, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I deny that.  That's as extreme as the OO view that says everyone can
> make their own decisions about halakha.  The truth exists in the middle
> ground between OO and haredism.

What I was speaking to RZS about is a case where he has an opinion that
he didn't identify a poseiq who supports, but we know of numerous poseqim
who deny. In my opinion, it isn't at the extreme -- in this particlar
case -- to say we keep our own opinions lehalakhah velo lemaaseh.

But even what I wrote, as opposed to what I intended, is far different
than daas Torah. I do not wish to repeat DT discussions. Here, the topic
is specifically how one decides how to practice. We have discussed
various poseqim's methodologies for choosing a pesaq, and I guess in
cases where autonomy is appropriate (or the only possibility, depending
on whose around) for the rest of us as well. But I pushed RYS to bring
this discussion from private email to the group because the poseiq -
sho'el relationship and its limits aren't something we discuss regularly.

Returning to RYS (and ":" for denoting quoting):
: 3) Is it possible that someone who is not a Rosh Yeshiva could have a more
: accurate reading of a particular text, perhaps they spent more time
: analyzing that particular text (though clearly not others, otherwise they
: would be a bar plugta), In other words, it is possible to be a bar plugta
: bidavar ached.

I don't think the question is one of accuracy, but authority. Halakhah is
a legal system, not a truth system. Lo sosiru and asei lekha rav mean that
you are supposed to turn to an authority and not take your own opinion
as law. I mean, if it's a zil qerei bei rav issue you found an error
in, you don't follow the Sanhedrin, but on other perceived errors you
do assume they are more likely to be right. I am assuming the same rule
Horios applies to hierarchy under the Sanhedrin applies today to poseqim.
And I agree that's an assumption.

Today's semichah is about giving a man permission to voice his opinion
for others. And thus that authority, if people choose him as their rav.

I am motivated by RARakefferR's turn of phrase "neo-Qaraites". RRW has
voice a similar concept, perhaps here, perhaps in personal email. People
who think it's sufficient to follow halachic texts -- from the extreme of
Ramabamists or those who hold that nothing since shas is authoritative,
to the more common position of a person not having a real rav, and
turning to numerous guides, rumors about what "the gedolim hold"
(as though they always agree), etc...

Halakhah is a living thing, a dialog down the ages. IMHO, to try to be
an O Jew without having that link back is simply not Yahadus.

(The curious might wish to see
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2009/12/my-mesorah.shtml>; I am at most
128 talmidim away from Moshe Rabbeinu: Moshe, Yehoshua, Pinechas... Rav
Shimon Shkop, R' Dovid Lifshitz, me.)

And this mental image of TSBP being a dynamic thing one inherits not only
in formal information but also by having a relationship and shimush from
a rebbe (recall how machloqesei Batei Hillel and Shammai got started)
jars with the notion of relying on one's own understanding of books or
der velt.

I am kind of surprised to learn that there are people here who consider
the fodder of Avodah discussions as anything more as lehalakhah velo
lemaaseh. I took it for granted -- as was obvious from my initial phrasing
-- that all of us kept a firm wall between debating lomdus and practice.

(My original comment to RZS was based on his making a *pragmatic*
statement, that no one would pasqen for a mamzer that it was assur alst
DDD for him to marry a shifcha.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Micha Berger asked:

> Possible ways out:
> a- Is DDD in this sense the law on the books, or the de facto
> reality? And does your country have enough violators (eg in the
> prostitution trade) that we can say buying people qualifies as
> de facto effective (even if illegal)?

I recall discussing this before, usually in the context of driving over the
posted speed limit. IIRC, we concluded that DDD does not follow the law as
passed by the legislators, but rather the law as enforced by the police.
Thus, for example, if the posted speed limit is 55 mph, but the policy is
to ignore anyone driving less than 65, then the DDD speed limit is 65.

I suppose there are some countries where there are so many problems that
the police choose to spend their time on things other than prostitution; in
such a case, an argument could be made that DDD no longer applies to
prostitution in that country. But in a country where the police *do*
enforce such laws (however weakly), DDD would still ban it.

On the other hand, when Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote his teshuva (Igros Moshe
Yoreh Deah 3:35) about smoking marijuana in 1973, he gave no less than six
reasons to forbid it, and DDD was NOT among them. We can only speculate
why.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 03:24:26PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: R' Micha Berger asked:
:> Possible ways out:
:> a- Is DDD in this sense the law on the books, or the de facto
:> reality? And does your country have enough violators (eg in the
:> prostitution trade) that we can say buying people qualifies as
:> de facto effective (even if illegal)?

: I recall discussing this before, usually in the context of driving
: over the posted speed limit....

Which is why I wronte "DDD in this sense". In #2 I was speaking of DDD
as defining norms for choshein mishpat. The case of violating the posted
speed limit like "everyone else does" is DDD as an issur to violate the
law. There we definitely concluded, as you recall, that the issur is to
violate the law as enforced. Posted speed limit is not enforced.

Here I also was trying to discuss the law as enforced, but not necessarily
followed anyway. (Subsequent replies convinced me I was wrong.) I was
looking for a case where people get caught, but still violate it. Since
I was talking about norms, can a law that is violated even if enforced
still define the norms for personal behavior?

I think RZS's invocation about "kol tenai shebemamon qayam" does address
this concern. One doesn't need to discuss norms if both parties agreed
to do the abnormal.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

> 2. Yissachar/Zevulun

how is this a chessed? isn't this just a business deal, buying schar
with money.....?

In the thread "Tu BiShvat today", R' Micha Berger wrote:

> We don't actually take 10%, so the Tu biShvat to Tu biShvat
> accounting doesn't matter.
>
> Besides, individuals only make the terumos umaaseros declaration
> on the food before them. Do the big fruit growers lump produce
> season by season and therefore need to separate the years?

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I suspect that it is incorrect. It is
also possible that you *are* correct, but I fear that some readers might
misunderstand you, so I hope it is okay if I clarify some issues here.

An individual who is taking terumos umaasros (for whatever reason) most certainly DOES do more than merely recite a declaration.

In the course of the process of taking terumos umaasros, different parts of
the food acquire a new halachic status. Some of these parts are physically
separated from the other parts, and others are separated only by an
invisible line.

Because the separation is happening, it is important for there to be a
unified identity of the food being separated. For example, if one has a
mixture of apples and oranges, one cannot simply say, "The apples are
teruma, and now I can eat the oranges." Rather, one must take teruma from
the apples, and also teruma from the oranges. If the two are evenly mixed,
then one may take some apples&oranges as teruma for the other
apples&oranges, but if one tries this for maaser they had better be
very evenly mixed or the proportions won't come out right.

This also applies to the year in which the fruit was grown. One may mix his
spring apples and his summer apples with no fear, but if one would mix
Teves apples with Adar apples -- they may as well be apples and oranges.  I
have heard that because of Tu B'Shvat's position on the harvesting
calendar, it is unlikely that a farmer would ever confront this situation
l'maaseh, but it is certainly an important concern l'halacha. It can also
be an important point on the consumer level -- Suppose one has a bottle of
olive oil which he purchased many months ago; he should not take terumos
umaasros from it together with the bottle he bought today (unless a product
code on the bottles can identify which year they're from).

What I wrote so far applies to both the physical separations and the
invisible separation. But there are indeed physical separations! RMB wrote,
"We don't actually take 10%..." That is true. But we DO separate a little
more than 1%, which we do need to dispose of in a respectful manner. This
portion contains the Terumah Gedola and the Terumas Maaser, which are
separated from each other by and invisible line, and are assur for us to
eat nowadays. The rest of the food has three statuses, separated from each
other by invisible lines: Maaser Rishon, either Masser Sheni or Maaser Avi,
and Chullin. If one has done the procedure properly, then all three of
these will be mutar to eat.

I've obviously left out MANY details, and will be happy to expand on this
if anyone is interested. My main points were that (A) we do not merely
recite a declaration, but that part of the food must be respectfully
discarded, and that (B) because of the changes of status, it is important
to isolate species from species and year from year.

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
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From: Ben Waxman <_ben1...@zahav.net.il_ (mailto:ben1...@zahav.net.il) >

I heard a  Gra story once in which someone who had the only lulav in town
allowed the  Gra to use it on condition that the owner get the zchut.
The Gra agreed but  later said that there is no such thing as giving away
a zchut. How he agreed  to the deal if it was worthless wasn't  explained.

Ben




>>>>>
 
How it works is I do my part and Hashem does His.
 
The G'ra declares his willingness to give up his schar and Hashem either  
does or  does not transfer the G'ra's merit to the lulav-owner's Heavenly  
bank account.  Possibly He gives the lulav-owner the G'ra's schar for this  
mitzva -- and then gives the G'ra a new and separate "deposit" as a reward for 
 being willing to give up his reward and do the mitzva purely lishma.   
 
In Pirkei Avos it says "al tehi ke'avidim hameshamshim es harav al  menas 
lekabel pras" but it doesn't say that a person who serves Hashem out  of pure 
love, with no thought of the reward, will not in fact receive a  reward.
 
In the case of learning in the zechus of a person who [A] needs a  refuah 
sheleimah or [B] has gone on to the next world, it may similarly be the  case 
that I express my wish and intention that my learning go to purpose A or B, 
 and Hashem either does or doesn't apply the "deposit" of my learning to 
the  account of the person I wished to benefit.
 
In case B, where a shiur is said in memory of a person, say a yahrzeit  
shiur, and that shiur would not otherwise have been said, it is more clear that 
 the deceased person gets some zechus out of it, because it wouldn't  have 
happened without him.  The /only/ way a deceased person can get  more zechus 
is by means of the actions of living people here below.
 
It may be that a statement of the type, "This learning is in the merit of  
Ploni" is actually a tefilla that the learning will be in the merit of  
Ploni.
 
Please bear with me while I briefly recount a true story, involving  the 
two sons of a friend of mine.  The younger son, "Shimon," became a big  
masmid, on fire with love of learning.  The older son, "Reuven," went off  the 
derech, dropped out of yeshiva high school, stopped wearing a yarmulka,  went 
to public school, earned a college scholarship.  For a whole year,  Shimon 
started each day's learning by saying out loud, "My learning today is  in 
honor of my brother Reuven."  His mother told me this with tears in  her eyes.
 
Some time after that, she told me that Reuven had taken a trip to  Israel.  
And what do you know, somehow Reuven ended up in Ohr Someach and  -- the 
rest is history.  Did Shimon's learning "work"?  I think it  did.
 


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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