Avodah Mailing List

Volume 29: Number 12

Thu, 02 Feb 2012

• 1. Re: No joy can equal the resolution of doubt (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 2. Re: Wack-a-Frog (Eliyahu Grossman)
• 3. Re: animals and bechira?? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: faucets (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. Re: faucets (Rich, Joel)
• 6. frogs (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: frogs (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: faucets (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: frogs (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: frogs (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: faucets (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Was Avraham a Lamdan? (Prof. Levine)
• 13. parshat ha-man (Micha Berger)
• 14. s&amora (Harvey Benton)
• 15. patur below, but chayav above??in ref to prev question (S&Amora (Harvey Benton)
• 16. Re: s&amora (Lisa Liel)
• 17. Re: hakaras hatov required?? (Elazar M. Teitz)

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:04 PM, LReich <lre...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm trying to find the origin of the Hebrew quotation, "Ayn Simchah
> Kehatoras Hasfekos",
...
> As far as I know it is not found in Chazal. It can be found in the
> Metzudas Dovid (Mishlay 15:30).
> I have seen it attributed to the Rema (but where?)...

The attribution to the Rema is in his Tshuvos Simon 5.

Just to add that the Minchas Elozor (as well as others) attribute this to
the Rambam see the Shaarei Yissachar Maamorei Chodesh Ador, Mamar Yimei
Soson ois 33 and Mamah HaShkolim ois 12. (I have also seen attribution
to the RaM (which could be either the Ramabam or the Rema) in many places
it is prefaced with "Mamar HaChochom". (I also saw an idea that connects
it to the Yosifun chapter 18 who says Ein Simcha Ksimchas HaNitzochon).

-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:14:13 -0500
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
> In fact, the peshat in R' Aqiva appears to be that the frog multiplied
> through reproduction.

> Sanhedrin: tzefardeia achas haysah, umal'ah kol Eretz Mitzrayim.

> Shemos Rabba: ... vehi hishritzah umal'ah...
> Similarly, Yalqut Shim'oni.
> Ramban (citing Shemos Rabba): ... hishitza umal'ah ...
> Seikhel Tov (Buber): ... vehishritzah umal'eis kol Eretz Mitzrayim.

MB,

No arguments there. I found the same things. As far as I can tell, the
Rashi in Shemot concerning that was from Tanchuma, and is a twist on
the original to bring forth a different idea. Nothing wrong with that,
it happens a lot. I like the one in Sanhedrin, without the wacking for
an assortment of reasons.

All the best.
Eliyahu Grossman

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:21:58AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
> On 1/30/2012 6:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> As I said earlier, see the Meshekh Chokhmah on tzelem E-lokim. He  
>> insists bechirah is the very tzelem which makes human beings human.

> He is reflecting a commonplace medieval doctrine, that animals make  
> impulsive choices and humans make thoughtful choices...

I'm not sure impulsive vs thoughtful is actually the MC's chiluq.

Computers have provided us with a mashal for complicated, non-reflexive,
but also not free-willed decision-making. While this mashal wasn't
available to the MC, we who know there are other possible chiluqim
can't assume that the MC's criterion was the same as those who realied
on Greek Natural Philosophy.

By the time the MC was written, the world already absorbed the ideas
of non-conscious thought (Kant's and RYSalanter's "dunkel") and the
contrast to consciousness.

...
> One slightly less awkward way is to claim that bechirah specifically  
> means choosing to obey or disobey God (cf. Meor Einayim on Parshas Bo  
> s.v. "ubazeh yevuar").  I don't like that because, as the Meor Einayim  
> acknowledges, it implies that people often lack bechirah.

In MmE, REED's famous nequdas habechirah suggests in a very different way
that many human decisions don't involve bechirah. It is only when there is
internal conflict forcing the decision to be made consciously. Otherwise,
the decision is made preconsciously, before you even noticed you made
it -- if you ever do.

Assuming the MC, half a century earlier, had a similar worldview, one
would have a different chiluq -- decisions that involved awareness of
one's thinking, and those that don't.

And there are reasons since the MC to believe that animals lack the
brain anatomy to watch themselves think. At least, they don't have at
least two of the areas of the brain that are involved when humans do it.
But we've discussed this just a few months back.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Joel Rich referred us to an article about faucets which have only one handle for both hot and cold, and the problems they pose on Shabbos:

> http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-GettingaHandleOnYourFaucet.htm

These was very little in that article that I had not thought of years ago.
It has always amazed me that any Shomer Shabbos would voluntarily purchase
such a faucet for his home, not counting those who (rightly or wrongly)
believe that it is okay to use the hot water tap on Shabbos.

He asked:

> 1.Did anyone check to see if the faucets that always have hot
> is a miyut hamatzui? I'm sure some may be in that category but
> iiuc that is not the basic design.

I have no idea what you mean hear. Are you suggesting that in a two-handled
faucet, the hot side provides hot water only occasionally? Please clarify
what you mean.

> 2.As a plumber's grandson I can tell you these were in wide use
> by the mid 60's ...  No one asked about it since then?

I have heard that some poskim (I have no idea who) allow using the hot
water in a large apartment building where most residents are not Jewish.
The logic is that since there are so many people, the hot water is in use
by someone almost constantly, and so there is no Psik Reisha that the Jew
is doing any melacha when he opens the hot water. I have also heard other
heterim based on whether the cold water enters the top of the tank or the
bottom of it.

If such heterim do exist, my guess is that people simply got used to using
hot water on Shabbos, and never thought to ask the question about
new-fangled faucets or tanks. This is what I was referring to when I wrote
"rightly or wrongly" above. But for those of us who learn Hilchos Shabbos
in detail, please see Rav Eider 395, Rav Ribiat 639-640, on the Shmiras
Shabbos 1:39-45, none of whom mention the single-handled faucet, but any of
whom ought to make one stop and think about it.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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> 1.Did anyone check to see if the faucets that always have hot
> is a miyut hamatzui? I'm sure some may be in that category but
> iiuc that is not the basic design.

I have no idea what you mean hear. Are you suggesting that in a two-handled
faucet, the hot side provides hot water only occasionally? Please clarify
what you mean.

======================================================
Sorry -  The article claims that some  single handled faucets still blend in hot water to the stream even when they are in the fully cold position.
KT
Joel Rich

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<< On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 07:41:49AM +0200, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
: In last week's parshah we read of the frog, in the singular, coming up and
: covering the land. The first half of Rashi brings forth a Midrash that has
: Rabbi Akiva saying that they wacked the frog and it multiplied, with Rabbi
: Elazar ben Azariah rebutting, telling R' Akiva to go back to what he's
good
: at, that R' Akiva got it wrong. There was one frog, he whistled, and they
: came. Period. >>

Pof. Sperber based on many poofs claims that tzefardea is a crocodile and
and not a frog

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:26:19PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Pof. Sperber based on many poofs claims that tzefardea is a crocodile and
: and not a frog

Rabbeinu Chananel, Ibn Ezra and Abarbanel said it first.

Two factors (not proofs, just indications) in favor of "frog":

Heket, the Egyptian fertility goddess, has a frog head. As RSRH notes,
this would make the makkah about fertility symbols emerging from the
river where they drowned Jewish babies (Shemos 1:22). Doesn't work with
crocodiles.

Second, a number of medrashim (including the Tanchuma, Bo 4 and Shemos
Rabba 10:6, Yalqut Shim'oni 182...) and the Zohar speak of the deafening
noise of the tzefarde'im. Crocodiles can "howl"
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEj5imOSJ40>, but the noise is lower and
not as incessant as the croaking of frogs.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

The impression I get from googling around is that all single-handle
faucets have a range of rotation that has no hot water. (Although not
all have the ability for you to select hot water only.)

So far I saw Moen (cartridge type), Delta (with an internal ball), 
and Kohler (disc). Three major brands here in the US, with three
different technologies.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
mi...@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 1/31/2012 3:54 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Two factors (not proofs, just indications) in favor of "frog":
> Heket, the Egyptian fertility goddess, has a frog head...
> Second, a number of medrashim ... speak of the deafening noise...

That, and the fact that taninim are a lot more likely to be crocs.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 04:01:43PM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
> That, and the fact that taninim are a lot more likely to be crocs.

Taninim must be snake-like, since Aharon turns the mateh into a sanin in
7:10, and the chartumim did as well (v. 10). But the mateh is described as
the one that turned into a nachash in v 16. It could be a back reference
to when Moshe turns it into a snake by the seneh (4:3). But in any case,
I would think the implication is that a sanin is snake or staff shaped.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> The impression I get from googling around is that all single-handle 
> faucets have a range of rotation that has no hot water...
> all have the ability for you to select hot water only.) 
 
> So far I saw Moen (cartridge type), Delta (with an internal ball), 
> and Kohler (disc). Three major brands here in the US, with three 
> different technologies. 
 
> -Micha 
 
Yes, I was being dan lkaf zchut since the article implies otherwise
(unless they meant worn out or defective faucets)


KT 
Joel Rich 

 From http://tinyurl.com/7b5zk78

The Mishnah at the end of Kiddushin says that Avraham kept the whole 
Torah.[1] The Rambam (Hil. Melachim 9:1) brings down the mitzvos that 
each of the Avos innovated. Many laws are learned from the stories in 
Bereishis even though they happened before the giving of the Torah.

However, Chazal do not discuss any of the questions arising from the 
statement that the Avos "kept the Torah."[3] Here and there, the 
commentators discussed some of the more obvious questions. For 
example, the Ramban in his commentary on the Torah (Gen. 26:5) 
famously asks how Ya'akov could have married two sisters, something 
prohibited by the Torah. This question in particular seemed to have 
intrigued many commentators.

<Snip>

Would a Chassidic Rebbe admit that his "Toyreh" is not the true 
explanation of the verse? That is a question that I cannot answer.

See the above URL for the rest of this article.  YL

Hijacked from Areivim to where it IMHO belongs...

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:15pm IST, R Eli Turkel wrote to Areivim:
: Reminder: To recite Parshas HaMann Tuesday, Jan. 31.

: There are many who recite this daily, however, it is a most auspicious
: time to recite it on today, Tuesday of Parshas B'shalach - Shabbos Shira,
: as HaRav Menachem Mendel of Rimonov Ben Reb Yosef said. (twice Mikrah & one
: time Targum)

: Parshas Hamon is in Chumash Shemos, Parshas Beshalach, Perek Tes Zayin
: (16), Posok Daled (4) till Perek Y'ud Zayin. It can also be found in some
: Siddurim such as Artscroll

: Parshas HaMon is in this week's parsha ,where the Torah discusses the mon
: (dew, i.e. sustenance)
: that the Jewish people received in the desert. This reminds us that
: now, too, we are entirely dependent upon G-d for our sustenance.

: http://www.tefillos.com/parshas_hamon.asp

On Wed, Feb 01, 2012 at 01:51:39PM +0200, R Danny Schoemann replied there:
: You may want to read what the Oruch HaShulchan has to say about the
: [non]-daily recitation of Parshat HaMon.

: It's on O"C Siman 1:25 - and pasted here in the original for those who
: can read it.

: ???? ?????? - ???? ???? - ???? ?':?"?

: ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????? -- ?? ????? ???. ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???
: ??"?. ??? ?????? ???????? ????? (????? ??? ?"?), ???? ?? ????? ??
: ????????.

: ????? ???? ??: ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ?', ??? ????? ??:
: "?? ????? ?? ?????????", "????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????" ????, ???? ??. ???
: ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???, ?????: "???? ????? ???? ??? ??, ???? ?? ???
: ??????". ??? ???? ????? ???? (???? ?"?): "?????? ??? ??????" -- ??? ???
: ???? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ????. ?? ??? ?????. ????
: ?????? ??: ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???..., ???? ??????? ???? ?????
: ?? ???. ??? ????? ???? ???: ???? ???? ?? ?????????? ??? ????????, ????
: ??. ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? (?? ???? ??? ????? ????).

For those who can't read the Hebrew, it's at http://bit.ly/wqLU3Q
(compressed from an he.wikisource.org link), where our chaver R Dovi
Jacobs (CC-ed to bring him out of lurking) lists it as 1:24, toward
the end.

I don't find the lack of mention in shas, or the Y-mi source that the
Perishah sites but the AhS can't find, to be all that significant of a
data point. The vast majority of our siddur is from the geonic period.
If we stuck to just what Chazal mention saying, even using the geonic
matbei'os, Shacharis would be half the length. And if you just stick
to what Chazal *require* saying and not do everything they recommend
as hanhagos for someone who wants to be a ben olam haba (eg Ashrei),
Shacharis would look a lot like Maariv.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

why was sdom and? amora
destroyed????

?
hmz
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what specific mitzvah 

did sdom commit to 

deserve the punishment
they got??
eg, were they not oiver 

any of the 7Mbnoach, but
were cruel, and there-
fore.......were destroyed???
hb
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On 2/1/2012 4:39 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> why was sdom and  amora
> destroyed????

What kind of question is that?


On 2/1/2012 4:47 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> what specific mitzvah did sdom commit to deserve the punishment
> they got??
> eg, were they not oiver any of the 7Mbnoach, but were cruel, and there-
> fore.......were destroyed???

In Pirkei Avot, it talks about 4 types of people:
    * One who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours"
      is a /hassid/.
    * One who says, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours" is
      a regular person. Others say that this is the behavior of Sodom.
    * One who says, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine" is
      an evil person.
    * One who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is mine" is
      a fool.

And that's the answer to your question. How can there be such a disparity
between the two views of the second type of person? I can't see how, if
they're talking about the same thing. But there are two ways of reading
"what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours." One is that we are
allowed to do what we want with our own property/money, and the other is
that we aren't. That what's yours *must* remain yours. And what's mine
*must* remain mine. And that neither of us has a choice in the matter.

The Midrash says that they used to mark the coins in Sdom so that if you
gave tzedaka, you could be found out and punished. What the people of
Sdom did was the flip side of what the Dor ha-Palga did. They simply
abolished personal ownership entirely. Everything belonged to the king,
or society, or what have you. In both cases, the very essence of being a
human being, with personal autonomy and the corresponding responsibility,
was eliminated. And without that, physical destruction is pretty much
just an afterthought.

Lisa

>Doesn't R' Chanina segan hakohanim (Avos 3:2) require hakaras hatov of
the gov't just for creating the fear that reduces crime? Or are we told
to praying for its peace for other reasons?<

     I understood it to mean that we pray for its peace so that it can continue to create the fear, not as an expression of thanks for it.

EMT

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